Which F-Body To Get??
08-17-2009, 06:49 PM
#61
As far as the cars there is little to no difference between years or models. One may be faster one may be slower, no real way to know for sure without buying them all. So just pick one you like and/or that fits your price range and be done.
Having both, I'll say that the A4 is the way to go. Some say the M6s are more fun to drive and I see that to an extent. I think I have more fun outrunning M6s though.
Assuming you get an A4, stall should be the first mod. Lid, exhuast, etc... are good mods but offer no where near the gains of a stall. And stalls improve the fun factor of and A4 250%. Stall speed of 3000-3600 make for great driving cars that still kick ***. With a stall and DRs and nothing else, you should be mid high 12s (depending on weather and DA).
My car was in the 11s with just a stall and a few other bolt ons. Though, mine may be more than what you're looking for out of a good DD. Research goes a long way in deciding what's best for your car and your needs.
Second mod should be a good nitrous kit. A 150 shot and a stall should have you somewhere in the 11s. Also a little research goes a long way here too.
Then maybe a lid and a good exhaust system.
Having both, I'll say that the A4 is the way to go. Some say the M6s are more fun to drive and I see that to an extent. I think I have more fun outrunning M6s though.
Assuming you get an A4, stall should be the first mod. Lid, exhuast, etc... are good mods but offer no where near the gains of a stall. And stalls improve the fun factor of and A4 250%. Stall speed of 3000-3600 make for great driving cars that still kick ***. With a stall and DRs and nothing else, you should be mid high 12s (depending on weather and DA).
My car was in the 11s with just a stall and a few other bolt ons. Though, mine may be more than what you're looking for out of a good DD. Research goes a long way in deciding what's best for your car and your needs.
Second mod should be a good nitrous kit. A 150 shot and a stall should have you somewhere in the 11s. Also a little research goes a long way here too.
Then maybe a lid and a good exhaust system.
for 500 bucks you can have a pretty decent converter... and like Jon said you WILL NOT see more performance gains for any 1 single mod except for nitrous.. you will spend more than 500 bucks on exhaust without as big of a gain, 300 on an ls6 intake or 800+ on a FAST, 6-700+ on a cam swap without as big gain.. the list goes on..
when you get a converter you will also need a set of stickey tires for the track..
if i had a BONE stock car to mod right now i would do (in this order)..
free mods & lid (just because you can get all this for about 60 bucks)
4k converter
tires
LT's ORY and cutout
nitrous & tune
then i would start saving up for my intake/cam/heads etc..
08-17-2009, 07:05 PM
#62
haha your right. I know nothing based on am I asking to much of my tuner. Lets talk theory then and Base engine design. That probably went over your head.
I don't talk down on people I just find it funny that people without educations think they can talk smack on the engineers who design their **** which you pretty much are by the way you guys go about thinking mods and systems work.
My knowledge is "useless" so forget explaining to you I guess. Maybe you guys need to get an education instead of doing research which I am sure is equivalent to looking at wikipedia. High school doesn't really cover fluid dynamics or heat transfer or thermo or dynamic systems. You probably know gravity brings everything to the center of a mass lol.
Headers are not a worthy mod but you probably wouldn't understand flow separation, cross talk and scavenging effects of blow down from the exhaust stroke and what the higher LDA commonly known as LSA does to exhaust flow characteristics. How headers tie into all this is another story.
Have you ever done a tune on a car yourself? If you have you would understand that ed's logic is severely flawed but you are probably a drone. No need to replace a maf tune in a NA car period. MAF tunes are far more sophisticated than SD with better resolution. Hahahahaha and closed loop doesn't change the LTM fuel trims on the base tables.
have a good life using grade school physics and the site to prove you are "omniscient." Don't remember who said something about me working for car companies explaining things. I am going to be the bigger man because I am sure my lifestyle and pay far surpasses yours, but get the f*** out the cars and engines I help design and calibrate, and on side note come to my f**king work and do one day and see if you can not look like a complete ignorant *** because you don't know ****. See if you can even run the software that is required to do my job.
Also there is no need to talk **** on members. I am tired of half the people on this site thinking they are the ****. I am not going to contribute to this ignorant ****. You guys go ahead and build your cars. I am sure my engineering knowledge won't help, but I guarantee you when you pull up next me with a similar car my knowledge on flow and system dynamics will lead a car 100x's more capable than yours, because you read peoples post and incorporate their "good findings" w/o knowledge of what they are doing. The most useless people to automotive engineering and the modding world, only thing you are good for is enthusiasm haha.
To the OP get what you want but be smart these newer years can be gotten at around the same price with better components. Also you can do a tune yourself which that and cat removal with a lid will be your best base gains. Do not DO NOT get a 4k converter for street use. Whoever recommended that is completely beyond retarded. You said 80% street use. The PCM will not like locking the converter at lower rpms because of the stall. You will have to run an ungodly cooler want to keep the rpms higher cruising in order to lock your converter or else you will significantly shorten life of the transmission because of the heat induced. Get the M6. Never stall a street car that high period. I bet I could beat stock a4's all day with a stock m6 no problem.
Even if you bought every car that would be no comparison of speed or power, you guys are ridiculous and don't even understand simple statistics and production variation. An 02 ls1 if it was blueprinted with exact combustion chambers, piston cc's the whole 9 yards would be a 99 blueprinted ls1 everyday period. You can't compare production based engines from a year to year or model to model basis and says it speaks for the entire population. Wow you guys don't seem to get it.
I don't talk down on people I just find it funny that people without educations think they can talk smack on the engineers who design their **** which you pretty much are by the way you guys go about thinking mods and systems work.
My knowledge is "useless" so forget explaining to you I guess. Maybe you guys need to get an education instead of doing research which I am sure is equivalent to looking at wikipedia. High school doesn't really cover fluid dynamics or heat transfer or thermo or dynamic systems. You probably know gravity brings everything to the center of a mass lol.
Headers are not a worthy mod but you probably wouldn't understand flow separation, cross talk and scavenging effects of blow down from the exhaust stroke and what the higher LDA commonly known as LSA does to exhaust flow characteristics. How headers tie into all this is another story.
Have you ever done a tune on a car yourself? If you have you would understand that ed's logic is severely flawed but you are probably a drone. No need to replace a maf tune in a NA car period. MAF tunes are far more sophisticated than SD with better resolution. Hahahahaha and closed loop doesn't change the LTM fuel trims on the base tables.
have a good life using grade school physics and the site to prove you are "omniscient." Don't remember who said something about me working for car companies explaining things. I am going to be the bigger man because I am sure my lifestyle and pay far surpasses yours, but get the f*** out the cars and engines I help design and calibrate, and on side note come to my f**king work and do one day and see if you can not look like a complete ignorant *** because you don't know ****. See if you can even run the software that is required to do my job.
Also there is no need to talk **** on members. I am tired of half the people on this site thinking they are the ****. I am not going to contribute to this ignorant ****. You guys go ahead and build your cars. I am sure my engineering knowledge won't help, but I guarantee you when you pull up next me with a similar car my knowledge on flow and system dynamics will lead a car 100x's more capable than yours, because you read peoples post and incorporate their "good findings" w/o knowledge of what they are doing. The most useless people to automotive engineering and the modding world, only thing you are good for is enthusiasm haha.
To the OP get what you want but be smart these newer years can be gotten at around the same price with better components. Also you can do a tune yourself which that and cat removal with a lid will be your best base gains. Do not DO NOT get a 4k converter for street use. Whoever recommended that is completely beyond retarded. You said 80% street use. The PCM will not like locking the converter at lower rpms because of the stall. You will have to run an ungodly cooler want to keep the rpms higher cruising in order to lock your converter or else you will significantly shorten life of the transmission because of the heat induced. Get the M6. Never stall a street car that high period. I bet I could beat stock a4's all day with a stock m6 no problem.
Even if you bought every car that would be no comparison of speed or power, you guys are ridiculous and don't even understand simple statistics and production variation. An 02 ls1 if it was blueprinted with exact combustion chambers, piston cc's the whole 9 yards would be a 99 blueprinted ls1 everyday period. You can't compare production based engines from a year to year or model to model basis and says it speaks for the entire population. Wow you guys don't seem to get it.
Last edited by Radcannon; 08-17-2009 at 07:24 PM.
08-17-2009, 07:11 PM
#63
haha your right. I know nothing based on am I asking to much of my tuner. Lets talk theory then and Base engine design.
I don't talk down on people I just find it funny that people without educations think they can talk smack on the engineers who design their **** which you pretty much are by the way you guys go about thinking mods and systems work.
My knowledge is "useless" so forget explaining to you I guess. Maybe you guys need to get an education instead of doing research which I am sure is equivalent to looking at wikipedia. High school doesn't really cover fluid dynamics or heat transfer or thermo or dynamic systems. You probably know gravity brings everything to the center of a mass lol.
Headers are not a worthy mod but you probably wouldn't understand flow separation, cross talk and scavenging effects of blow down from the exhaust stroke and what the higher LDA commonly known as LSA does to exhaust flow characteristics. How headers tie into all this is another story.
Have you ever done a tune on a car yourself? If you have you would understand that ed's logic is severely flawed but you are probably a drone. No need to replace a maf tune in a NA car period. MAF tunes are far more sophisticated than SD with better resolution. Hahahahaha and closed loop doesn't change the LTM fuel trims on the base tables.
have a good life using grade school physics and the site to prove you are "omniscient." Don't remember who said something about me working for car companies explaining. I am going to be the bigger man because I am sure my lifestyle and pay far surpasses yours, but get the f*** out the cars and engines I help design and calibrate, and on side note come to my f**king work and do one day and see if you can not look like a complete ignorant *** because you don't know ****. See if you can even run the software that is required to do my job.
I don't talk down on people I just find it funny that people without educations think they can talk smack on the engineers who design their **** which you pretty much are by the way you guys go about thinking mods and systems work.
My knowledge is "useless" so forget explaining to you I guess. Maybe you guys need to get an education instead of doing research which I am sure is equivalent to looking at wikipedia. High school doesn't really cover fluid dynamics or heat transfer or thermo or dynamic systems. You probably know gravity brings everything to the center of a mass lol.
Headers are not a worthy mod but you probably wouldn't understand flow separation, cross talk and scavenging effects of blow down from the exhaust stroke and what the higher LDA commonly known as LSA does to exhaust flow characteristics. How headers tie into all this is another story.
Have you ever done a tune on a car yourself? If you have you would understand that ed's logic is severely flawed but you are probably a drone. No need to replace a maf tune in a NA car period. MAF tunes are far more sophisticated than SD with better resolution. Hahahahaha and closed loop doesn't change the LTM fuel trims on the base tables.
have a good life using grade school physics and the site to prove you are "omniscient." Don't remember who said something about me working for car companies explaining. I am going to be the bigger man because I am sure my lifestyle and pay far surpasses yours, but get the f*** out the cars and engines I help design and calibrate, and on side note come to my f**king work and do one day and see if you can not look like a complete ignorant *** because you don't know ****. See if you can even run the software that is required to do my job.
you speak in circles.. repeating some of the same things over and over..
just because you went to college (you arent the only one in this thread) doesnt mean you know what you are talking about..
i pointed out MANY flaws in 2-3 posts in this thread alone.. do you have potential? yea.. but you argue about stuff that is proven.. and you back it by saying.......
"have a good life using grade school physics and the site to prove you are "omniscient." Don't remember who said something about me working for car companies explaining. I am going to be the bigger man because I am sure my lifestyle and pay far surpasses yours, but get the f*** out the cars and engines I help design and calibrate, and on side note come to my f**king work and do one day and see if you can not look like a complete ignorant *** because you don't know ****. See if you can even run the software that is required to do my job."
i backed my points up with facts.. along with other people chiming in...
you arent ignorant.. you are stupid..
good day!
08-17-2009, 07:33 PM
#64
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I've been officially hijacked... Wow ok.
There's alot of BS arguing going on on this thread. From some of it I've learned a few things, but is all that REALLY neccesary?
Thanks to all of you who gave me useful information and tried to help.
As of this moment, I've been officially hijacked.
The little arguments are kind of amusing though..
Unless anyone else has any useful info, I've gotten the knowledge that I needed, so continue on with the arguing.
There's alot of BS arguing going on on this thread. From some of it I've learned a few things, but is all that REALLY neccesary?
Thanks to all of you who gave me useful information and tried to help.
As of this moment, I've been officially hijacked.
The little arguments are kind of amusing though..
Unless anyone else has any useful info, I've gotten the knowledge that I needed, so continue on with the arguing.
08-17-2009, 07:41 PM
#65
Wow ok.
There's alot of BS arguing going on on this thread. From some of it I've learned a few things, but is all that REALLY neccesary?
Thanks to all of you who gave me useful information and tried to help.
As of this moment, I've been officially hijacked.
The little arguments are kind of amusing though..
Unless anyone else has any useful info, I've gotten the knowledge that I needed, so continue on with the arguing.
There's alot of BS arguing going on on this thread. From some of it I've learned a few things, but is all that REALLY neccesary?
Thanks to all of you who gave me useful information and tried to help.
As of this moment, I've been officially hijacked.
The little arguments are kind of amusing though..
Unless anyone else has any useful info, I've gotten the knowledge that I needed, so continue on with the arguing.
!!!!way to take it in stride man.. you will fit in just fine here...
as for the converter... most people are more happy with a 3400-3600 for street use.. although in town the difference between a good 4k converter and a good 3500 converter is MINIMAL.. you are talking 150rpms or so difference on take offs..
i have owned two 4k converters and i DD them both.. i put about 60-70 miles on my car a day..
you need to think ahead a little on your mods.. if you want a big cam then go with a big converter.. if your sticking with a small cam (IMO you should still go big on the converter) you can get away with a smaller converter..
as for redcannon saying dont go big on the converter..
!!! only people stuck in the 80's say that.. a 3500-4000 converter is PERFECT for a stock to all the way H/C ls1. SIDE NOTE--- RED CANNON YOU ARE A LOOSE NUT!
08-17-2009, 07:41 PM
#66
Alright man sorry about the arguing on your thread. lol glad you were entertained and have fun with your soon to be purchased baby. As in thats what these cars become to us.
Thanks I am glad I have potential lemons even though it's in stupidity. I am glad you are educated, that being said not sure its engineering.
Lol good day!
BTW I am not saying by any means I am smarter than everyone or anyone. I just trust the knowledge of the engineers who design the motors rather than the public's consensus.
Haha ok lemons. I'm glad you had a 4k in your car. How long did you DD with the trans stock. The difference in take off doesn't matter its the heat generated from not locking the converter at lower speeds that compromises transmission durability for DD and will sacrifice fuel economy. Its not the key to a fast street car, and a H/C can benefit from it but those aren't cheap mods... haha... I thought thats what this post was about.
For street/strip car a 228 r cam or 232 with 5.3 stage 2 heads, LT's and full exhaust with a lid and new filter would be perfect in my opinion easily put you in the 12's with stock tranny and driving characteristics.
Thanks I am glad I have potential lemons even though it's in stupidity. I am glad you are educated, that being said not sure its engineering.
Lol good day!
BTW I am not saying by any means I am smarter than everyone or anyone. I just trust the knowledge of the engineers who design the motors rather than the public's consensus.
Haha ok lemons. I'm glad you had a 4k in your car. How long did you DD with the trans stock. The difference in take off doesn't matter its the heat generated from not locking the converter at lower speeds that compromises transmission durability for DD and will sacrifice fuel economy. Its not the key to a fast street car, and a H/C can benefit from it but those aren't cheap mods... haha... I thought thats what this post was about.
For street/strip car a 228 r cam or 232 with 5.3 stage 2 heads, LT's and full exhaust with a lid and new filter would be perfect in my opinion easily put you in the 12's with stock tranny and driving characteristics.
08-17-2009, 07:43 PM
#67
so redcannon.. in your opinion..
i cut 1.52 sixty foots NA FULL weight in my DD street car...
is this because i dont have cats?
and
!!!!! at you saying you can beat a stock a4 in a stock m6.. i wouldnt doubt it..
put a converter in the a4 and we will see what it takes for you to match its speed!
i cut 1.52 sixty foots NA FULL weight in my DD street car...
is this because i dont have cats?
and
!!!!! at you saying you can beat a stock a4 in a stock m6.. i wouldnt doubt it.. put a converter in the a4 and we will see what it takes for you to match its speed!
08-17-2009, 07:45 PM
#68
Alright man sorry about the arguing on your thread. lol glad you were entertained and have fun with your soon to be purchased baby. As in thats what these cars become to us.
Thanks I am glad I have potential lemons even though it's in stupidity. I am glad you are educated, that being said not sure its engineering.
Lol good day!
BTW I am not saying by any means I am smarter than everyone or anyone. I just trust the knowledge of the engineers who design the motors rather than the public's consensus.
Thanks I am glad I have potential lemons even though it's in stupidity. I am glad you are educated, that being said not sure its engineering.
Lol good day!
BTW I am not saying by any means I am smarter than everyone or anyone. I just trust the knowledge of the engineers who design the motors rather than the public's consensus.
i am smarter than the people building the engines!
08-17-2009, 07:52 PM
#69
Ya thats what everyone thinks, because their car is faster now than when they bought it with cheap mods the production people are stupid.
Then when people do a tune and make 30-40 more hp they think wow how dumb were these engineers.
I am not even responding to the no cat thing.
Then when people do a tune and make 30-40 more hp they think wow how dumb were these engineers.
I am not even responding to the no cat thing.
08-17-2009, 08:15 PM
#70
I don't even know where to start.
You can spout off BS all day long, but you're arguing with people who have done all this stuff. Design and engineering is about experience and R&D and it appears that you have neither when it comes to LS1s.
Hell, half of the time your facts are so far from reality, that it blows my damn mind.
Edit: I meant to say 99% of the time.
You can spout off BS all day long, but you're arguing with people who have done all this stuff. Design and engineering is about experience and R&D and it appears that you have neither when it comes to LS1s.
Hell, half of the time your facts are so far from reality, that it blows my damn mind.
Edit: I meant to say 99% of the time.
08-17-2009, 08:24 PM
#71
haha engineering is not experience or r&d as much as it is governing equations and analysis and CFD. BTW R&D is very rarely used in engineering now as in it is not really relied upon. Its all shifting to analytical design using Computational Fluid Dynamics and 2D repesenation of systems doing 1D flow analysis and using CFD to match the flow characteristics. We also do stress and strain analysis on valvetrain components and blocks you name it all equations not experience. Experience doesn't tell you how the microstructure of an alloy will hold up to stress and strains and the thermo characteristics and how it relates to UTS. Also we do analysis on cams to determine velocity, acceleration which is the derivative of velocity we go to the third or fourth derivative the second being jerk which largely determines valvetrain requirements and drives valve spring and cam design.
That must all be experience and r&d. HAHAHA not engineering background education and theory. We don't really use r&d its for the less sophisticated and capable companies, because its a waste of money. When major automotive companies approach r&d now its with very limited controlled variables due to analysis.
We do not have time to r&d multiple turbos or cam phase positions mixed with spark hooks and fueling trims there are over 100,000 variables in the modern tune. Calibration is even becoming analytical.
Now explain to me how that is experience or R&D.
That must all be experience and r&d. HAHAHA not engineering background education and theory. We don't really use r&d its for the less sophisticated and capable companies, because its a waste of money. When major automotive companies approach r&d now its with very limited controlled variables due to analysis.
We do not have time to r&d multiple turbos or cam phase positions mixed with spark hooks and fueling trims there are over 100,000 variables in the modern tune. Calibration is even becoming analytical.
Now explain to me how that is experience or R&D.
08-17-2009, 08:29 PM
#73
haha engineering is not experience or r&d as much as it is governing equations and analysis and CFD. BTW R&D is very rarely used in engineering now as in it is not really relied upon. Its all shifting to analytical design using Computational Fluid Dynamics and 2D repesenation of systems doing 1D flow analysis and using CFD to match the flow characteristics.
That must all be experience and r&d. HAHAHA not engineering background education and theory. We don't really use r&d its for the less sophisticated and capable companies, because its a waste of money. When major automotive companies approach r&d now its with very limited controlled variables due to analysis.
We do not have time to r&d multiple turbos or cam phase positions mixed with spark hooks and fueling trims there are over 100,000 variables in the modern tune. Calibration is even becoming analytical.
Now explain to me how that is experience or R&D.
That must all be experience and r&d. HAHAHA not engineering background education and theory. We don't really use r&d its for the less sophisticated and capable companies, because its a waste of money. When major automotive companies approach r&d now its with very limited controlled variables due to analysis.
We do not have time to r&d multiple turbos or cam phase positions mixed with spark hooks and fueling trims there are over 100,000 variables in the modern tune. Calibration is even becoming analytical.
Now explain to me how that is experience or R&D.
you think becuase you know ^^^ that "****" and that is exactly what it is is ****... you know how to properly modify an ls1 to make it fast...
the sad reality is you dont... you LAUGH at me when i say put a 4k converter in it and say you should NEVER put a converter that big in...
what would you suggest a 2800??? anybody that puts that size converter in an ls1 wasted their money..
you can ramble on about all this mumbo jumbo bull **** all day and all night.. until you get your head out of your *** and want to learn how to properly modify an ls1 your just another dick in the wind..
08-17-2009, 08:32 PM
#74
thats my point.. i just dont get it..
he knows his ****.. HAS POTENTIAL.. just refuses to learn about ls motors..
FWIW red, ls motors are a whole different ball game than 95% of the other ones out there..
where you say dont go 4k stall on a stock ls1.. a stock ls1 would LOVE that..
you keep talking about cats.. they arent THAT restrictive.. you say dont worry about headers until you do heads...
LEARN.. we have been doing this for years and know what works...
you obviously know a good bit about cars.. but you are just getting into the LS platform.. just chill a little and learn soemthing.
he knows his ****.. HAS POTENTIAL.. just refuses to learn about ls motors..
FWIW red, ls motors are a whole different ball game than 95% of the other ones out there..
where you say dont go 4k stall on a stock ls1.. a stock ls1 would LOVE that..
you keep talking about cats.. they arent THAT restrictive.. you say dont worry about headers until you do heads...
LEARN.. we have been doing this for years and know what works...
you obviously know a good bit about cars.. but you are just getting into the LS platform.. just chill a little and learn soemthing.
08-17-2009, 08:48 PM
#76
maybe I would be more willing to if i wasn't attacked immediately by people telling me I don't know my **** because I live and breathe engines and theory. I refuse to learn and take advice from people that attack me though. That is not how learning is achieved.
I understand ls motors are different than any other beast mostly due to head geometry still governing laws of motors hold true to it. I really love the people that say with 1" 7/8 headers make more power than 1 3/4 and that larger is better because that is not true because of flow separation due to sudden expansion rates due to the headers being so much larger than the outlet port. The reason only reason they can make more power is because the bends are less restrictive and the expansion around the curves allow for smooth flow transitions around the radius. Not because the header is larger.
Port geometry and manifold characteristics make the ls1 more prone to power above 3000k really coming alive in the upper band so i see why you say a stock ls1 would love 4k but i think its overkill for street, and strip you are severely limiting operating power band and not taking full advantage of torque curve which equals acceleration. Yes you are taking advantage of the hp curve which is the ability to do work but not the force driving the work; therefore, without a significantly larger cam to shift the torque curve naturally above the 4k range I do not see the benefit. Thus I said 228 or 232 because they will really come alive mid 2k high 2k right before the LS1 naturally likes to make torque when this is coupled with larger overlap i see a huge benefit in headers but not on a stock engine not really. Cats are about 20 kpa of restriction at least which is 10 hp and I can prove this to you through analysis. Yes i understand the importance of research and experience but every dyno can be manipulated and all numbers can be misleading without controlled variables.
I understand ls motors are different than any other beast mostly due to head geometry still governing laws of motors hold true to it. I really love the people that say with 1" 7/8 headers make more power than 1 3/4 and that larger is better because that is not true because of flow separation due to sudden expansion rates due to the headers being so much larger than the outlet port. The reason only reason they can make more power is because the bends are less restrictive and the expansion around the curves allow for smooth flow transitions around the radius. Not because the header is larger.
Port geometry and manifold characteristics make the ls1 more prone to power above 3000k really coming alive in the upper band so i see why you say a stock ls1 would love 4k but i think its overkill for street, and strip you are severely limiting operating power band and not taking full advantage of torque curve which equals acceleration. Yes you are taking advantage of the hp curve which is the ability to do work but not the force driving the work; therefore, without a significantly larger cam to shift the torque curve naturally above the 4k range I do not see the benefit. Thus I said 228 or 232 because they will really come alive mid 2k high 2k right before the LS1 naturally likes to make torque when this is coupled with larger overlap i see a huge benefit in headers but not on a stock engine not really. Cats are about 20 kpa of restriction at least which is 10 hp and I can prove this to you through analysis. Yes i understand the importance of research and experience but every dyno can be manipulated and all numbers can be misleading without controlled variables.
Last edited by Radcannon; 08-17-2009 at 08:58 PM.
08-17-2009, 09:35 PM
#77
Port geometry and manifold characteristics make the ls1 more prone to power above 3000k really coming alive in the upper band so i see why you say a stock ls1 would love 4k but i think its overkill for street, and strip you are severely limiting operating power band and not taking full advantage of torque curve which equals acceleration. Yes you are taking advantage of the hp curve which is the ability to do work but not the force driving the work; therefore, without a significantly larger cam to shift the torque curve naturally above the 4k range I do not see the benefit. Thus I said 228 or 232 because they will really come alive mid 2k high 2k right before the LS1 naturally likes to make torque when this is coupled with larger overlap i see a huge benefit in headers but not on a stock engine not really. Cats are about 20 kpa of restriction at least which is 10 hp and I can prove this to you through analysis. Yes i understand the importance of research and experience but every dyno can be manipulated and all numbers can be misleading without controlled variables.
much better post!
as for the 4k converter.. im not a genius, nor do i understand this platform like some people on here.. BUT! i do know what works and what doesnt work.. whether i know why/how is really irrelevant..
i guess thats what i was trying to say.. you know how/why things should work not necessarily what does (just because you have not experimented with LS setups yet.. and i am the opposite..
i have NEVER seen a 3k converter outperform a 3600+ converter... regardless of the application..
Jon's application is a prime example of my reasoning..
https://ls1tech.com/forums/drag-raci...r-results.html
4000 converter in a bolt on converter and he cuts killer 60 foots.. granted he is lite, but that doesnt make THAT much of a difference..
i also have a 4k.. i cut 1.52 short times in a full weight car with a 226 cam.
my white trans am had a ms4 and 4k (more like 4500) in it.. it cut high 1.5s but spun through the sixty.. it would have cut high high 1.4s with traction present.
i know what works.. and have a general idea of why/how it works.. i dont understand anything like you do.. like jon and i both have stated, its obvious you are very smart.. just need to forget that you know all that for a while and see what works not why/how it *should work.. if that makes sense!
08-17-2009, 09:57 PM
#78
Fair enough, and sorry for any anger.
A 4k will usually beat a 3600 depending on launch because peak torque is usually made in the 4200-4600 power band. Your acceleration, if you had an accelerometer on board you could measure this, follows the torque curve exactly being highest at peak torque; therefore, you want to take advantage of the high torque before the peak just as much as after because of the acceleration it will allow, higher rpms though before shifting will tend to be faster because of the gear multiplication thus drag cars high revving. This is also why turbo cars aren't as fun because they have relatively flat torque curves. In an LT1 a 4 grand would probably not beat a 3600.
A 4k will usually beat a 3600 depending on launch because peak torque is usually made in the 4200-4600 power band. Your acceleration, if you had an accelerometer on board you could measure this, follows the torque curve exactly being highest at peak torque; therefore, you want to take advantage of the high torque before the peak just as much as after because of the acceleration it will allow, higher rpms though before shifting will tend to be faster because of the gear multiplication thus drag cars high revving. This is also why turbo cars aren't as fun because they have relatively flat torque curves. In an LT1 a 4 grand would probably not beat a 3600.
08-17-2009, 10:00 PM
#79
Fair enough, and sorry for any anger.
A 4k will usually beat a 3600 depending on launch because peak torque is usually made in the 4200-4600 power band. Your acceleration, if you had an accelerometer on board you could measure this, follows the torque curve exactly being highest at peak torque; therefore, you want to take advantage of the high torque before the peak just as much as after because of the acceleration it will allow, higher rpms though before shifting will tend to be faster because of the gear multiplication thus drag cars high revving. This is also why turbo cars aren't as fun because they have relatively flat torque curves. In an LT1 a 4 grand would probably not beat a 3600.
A 4k will usually beat a 3600 depending on launch because peak torque is usually made in the 4200-4600 power band. Your acceleration, if you had an accelerometer on board you could measure this, follows the torque curve exactly being highest at peak torque; therefore, you want to take advantage of the high torque before the peak just as much as after because of the acceleration it will allow, higher rpms though before shifting will tend to be faster because of the gear multiplication thus drag cars high revving. This is also why turbo cars aren't as fun because they have relatively flat torque curves. In an LT1 a 4 grand would probably not beat a 3600.
and yes, lt1s dont like as high of a stall speed.. a 3000-3400 is ideal for those from what i have seen.. although i honestly know ls1s... not lt1s..
