Big Geek

iTrader: (2)

Bill, maybe the folks who make the decisions there (You or whomever.) should reevaluate the fact that you sell a product and now have no resources in which to help the customer upgrade said product without buying an entirely new one. I deal with some very large companies on a daily basis (Seimens, GE Fanuc are just two.) and they always bend over backwards to help their customers despite being the size they are. If ya'll are that small they I would think the service would be even more personable unless you just don't care which is kinda what I am taking away from your post. If I got an email from ya'll it probably was caught by my spam filter because I dang sure didn't know about it. Regardless, ya'll never put a cut off date in place for software upgrades before this one. To do so this time was a shitty move plain and simple. It left more than me twisting out in the wind and do you think that this train of thought will bring more of less business? I am guessing the ones that decide this issue are basically of the opinion "tough ****, they will buy it just because of the software". To that I say - "ok". I don't need sales support for the serial cable. I am more than willing to upgrade but again to put a cutoff date on it is not right, I don't care how ya slice it. Ya'll sold me an item and upgraded the software several times in the past without a deadline. Now since you stopped supporting the serial port cable there is a deadline and tough **** for all the customers who didn't meet it regardless of how long they have been with ya'll. We just have to buy entirely new systems. That is utter bullshit. If EFI Live treats me this way then I will simply go back to FAST units. In 12 years they have always been a pleasure to deal with. If you don't believe me ask some big name tuners such as Cal Hartline. I have seen them bend over backwards to help him as well. I wish I could say I had the same experience with HP Tuners, but such is life.

Jim C.

Big Geek

iTrader: (2)

If I had to guess, I would say they haven't dedicated anyone to this issue even on an "as needed" basis. I think they had some folks on it and figured "we will just put a deadline in place and **** on anyone who tries afterward". If they had at least one engineer who's job it was (We use the junior guys for crappy jobs like this.) to jump on upgrade issues such as this again "as needed", this would be a non issue. It would speak volumes about how they feel about their customer base. I have folks who come back years later wanting something adjusted. I don't tell them - "Tough ****, there was a 30 day, 6 month or 1 year cutoff. Now you have to buy a whole new tune from me". I simply make them an appointment and get to it. That is why I have the reputation that I do. That is why I have gotten the emails, PMs and phone calls to support my post. Right is right and wrong is wrong. In the world of customer service this is just not right, I don't care how you slice or sugar coat it. It's **** poor customer service managment plain and simple.

Jim C.

chasgiv3

iTrader: (1)

I went into my email archive and tried to find the detail but it was many years ago. I don't remember you guys having a forum back then. Believe I'm an IT exec and I make sure I follow all avenues from an Internet standpoint. It fell on deaf ears.
I honestly don't remember what I paid for it. Whatever the list price was at point in time.

I did find the cable. I guess I didn't throw it away. It was AutoTap EFI Live. Man that was a long time ago. I think I was running high 11's back then and thought I was the ****. LOL....

Is it usefull to anyone? If so I'll give it away to one of the poorer gearheads in the Chicago area. Not sure what you Aussies call them. Petrolheads? Or is that just the Brits?

foff667

iTrader: (2)

For 4 years from 2005-Sept 2009 we did we had to put an end to it as it was cutting into engineering time to add features to our software as we already have to deal with std mpvi to pro mpvi upgrades that take up time as is. We are a small company with less than 10 employees each with several jobs so dedicating an engineer to do upgrades for interfaces that haven't been sold since 2005 isn't a priority.

It was sent to the email listed on their customer login page so if this wasn't up to date it would've simply been sent to the email on their customer login page. This was also stickied on our help forum for the past 20 or so months.

We wish you well in your future endeavors and hope you are happy with whatever tuning solution you ultimately choose to go with. Keep in mind unlimited gen 3 cars with efilive will run you roughly $3300(including the v2 hardware) whereas we give you the option to license them for much less, but either way we wish you well. Also keep in mind we'll continue to offer software support ie you'll get 2.24, 2.26, etc without any additional charges/deadlines. Its only the hardware that we can no longer support or add licenses to.

-Bill

Big Geek

iTrader: (2)

That pretty much summed it up for me Bill. If you mean to tell me that ya'll can't take a jr. engineer and have him take care of updates as they come in in addition to his current projects then ya'll need to hire me as either an office manager or project manager because having managed multi-million dollar projects I can tell you there is a solution to every problem that a customer has and a solution that will make you money to boot. To say that you don't have the resources to take care of your customer base is not good advertising. The word for HP Tuners should be - "YES, we can"! - A lil Obama humor.

You want to dominate the market? Then MAKE IT HAPPEN when it comes to customer service. You guys sell one hell of a product, that much I know is true but if you can't get your **** together when it comes to your customer base in these HARD ECONOMIC TIMES things are not gonna be what they potentially could. Get it? If one cannot take the time to UPGRADE something they sold then there is a problem. To me it is relatively simple. If one sends in for an upgrade it would make sense to have something else ready to send out. Meaning you ship me a new cable, point me to the new software and issue me my current license's and any additional credits I may want to PURCHASE in addition to the price of the upgrade. That makes sense. Telling me "tough **** we had a dead line and you didn't meet it" is bullshit. It rates right up there with letting me know that if I buy another setup from you and ya'll change the format again that I stand the chance to be screwed TWICE! Thanks but no thanks. You fool me once shame on you. You fool me twice....................... Well ya can't fool me again; ya see? I have already been fooled once. Hehe. A little Bush humor.

Bottom line is that shame on me for buying ya'll's stuff to begin with. The interface is 5 years old and for me to expect it to be upgraded at a reasonable price is well......... Simply obtuse from what I get from ya'll. Keep this in mind I tune roughly 20-30 cars a year and while that isn't allot business continues to grow and it is a part time thing. I retire from here in 8 years and then it will be full time unless I decide to do something else.

Having said that, after this I will NEVER and I do mean NEVER use ya'll's product again. If, God forbid EFI Live were to go under I would begin installing F.A.S.T. systems on LS1's in addition to the other stuff I've installed them on and that my friend is a damn shame. All of this over a $400 or $500.00. I am needing more and more vehicles unlocked hence how this whole mess got started. Ya'll may not have made that much off me on this purchase but would have made much more off of me in the long run. We have a saying here in the South slim and you may want to point it out to whomever is calling the shots there. It states - "A pig gets fat but a hog gets slaughtered". If I was running that place this kinda **** wouldn't happen, not on my watch. The folks you tell tough **** to are the same ones that send you their hard earned money. Ya'll want a resume, PM me a salary offer. I bet you I can turn this kinda stuff around without a doubt. You keep chasing that dollar right now and I will chase em all over the long run.



I can tell ya this. The one that made my mind up for me is a member here and a LONG TIME member of the Turbo Buick community. He is a gentleman and a straight shooter. When you add his age and experience to the way ya'll have turned your backs on me it has left me no choice and I can assure you, I won't be coming back. I will also make sure to steer any future business away from ya'll that knocks at my door. Think about that for a minute, he got treated badly and now you've lost another long time customer do to **** poor customer service and word of mouth. It's too bad ya'll's attitudes don't match the software that you produce. Good luck to ya'll as well and take care.

Jim C.

poconojoe

iTrader: (43)

Bill You keep saying its cheaper to buy HP then EFI and as your current example you said it would cost $3300 to have unlimited licenses for LS based cars in EFI, with this I'd agree (even though I didn't check it seems about right), but what would it cost in HP Tuners. This is the list of LS cars the EFI gives you in the S-LS1-B stream
V8 Cars
04-05 Cadillac CTS-V 5.7L (2 model years)
99-02 Chevrolet Camaro 5.7L (4 model years)
99-04 Chevrolet Corvette 5.7L (6 model years)
99-02 Pontiac Firebird 5.7L (should be included with the Camaro)
04 Pontiac GTO 5.7L (1 model year)
13 model years @ 6 credits each equals 78 credits since I got 8 credits with the cable, I'll need 70 more credits @ 49.99 per credit equals $3499 (If I bought the 100 credits to get the 22% discount, even though I only needed 70 more credits, I could use the other 30 later, since i'll have to pay extra for and custom OS's and in the end save some money, but I'd be putting out $3899 up front) plus you need the interface $499 extra for the standard $649 for the professional. If the
Plus EFI includes these 2 cars, which account for 10 more model / years, another 60 credits from HP tuners, (but I doubt if any of the US tuners would run in to them, so I did not include them, in my calculation)
99-06 Holden Commodore 5.7L (8 model years)
01-05 Holden Monaro 5.7L (2 model years)
Plus EFI is including for no additional cost their COS's plus all these vehicles are also included in the S-LS1-B stream. (I didn't want to break these down by model / year, since I'm not sure, which ones are common to each other in your license scheme, but I'm sure it will add up to more then another hundred credits, of course them I could get the 38% discount)
V8 SUV's
00-05 Buick Rainier 5.3L
00-05 Chevrolet Suburban 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L 8.1L
00-05 Chevrolet Tahoe 4.8L, 5.3L
00-05 Chevrolet Trailblazer 5.3L
00-05 GMC Envoy 5.3L
00-05 GMC Yukon & Denali 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L 8.1L
02-07 Hummer H2 6.0L
00-05 Isuzu Ascender 5.3L

V6 SUV's
00-04 Chevrolet Blazer 4.3L
00-04 Chevrolet S10 4.3L
01 GMC Jimmy 4.3L
01-04 GMC Sonoma 4.3L
01 Oldsmobile Bravada 4.3L

V8 Trucks
02-06 Cadillac Escalade 5.3L, 6.0L
02-06 Chevrolet Avalanche 5.3L, 8.1L
03-09 Chevrolet Kodiak 8.1L
99-07 Chevrolet Silverado 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L 8.1L
03-04 Chevrolet SSR 5.3L
99-07 GMC Sierra 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L 8.1L
03-09 GMC Topkick 8.1L

V6 Trucks
01-07 Chevrolet Silverado 4.3L
01-07 GMC Sierra 4.3L V8 Vans
01-07 Chevrolet Express 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L
01-07 GMC Savana 4.8L, 5.3L, 6.0L

V6 Vans
01-05 Chevrolet Astro 4.3L
01-07 Chevrolet Express 4.3L
01-05 GMC Safari 4.3L
01-07 GMC Savana 4.3L

So unless I (along with a lot of other people) totally don't understand the license schemes, explain how in your example, going with Hp tuners for "all Ls based cars" is cheaper?
Disclaimer, this post in no way is meant, to infer one product is better then the other, it is strickly a request for you to better explain your constant blanket statement, that you always use, saying the the HP license model, use the year / model method is cheaper. Since most of my applications for this style of software involes a COS, I can't ever see it being cheaper for me.

foff667

iTrader: (2)

30 credits gets you the unlimited gen 3 car package including custom operating systems, new interface comes with 8 credits already so lets say a pro interface($649) + 22 additional credits($1100)=$1749 and he could tune all gen 3 v8 cars ie 97-04 vette, fbody, gto, etc.

Whereas With efilive you'd need to buy their LS1 stream which is $2500+the interface which is another $800 totalling well over $3200. They lump everything together in their LS1 group whereas we allow our customers to license just the vehicles they want to tune.

-Bill

macca_779

What you always seem to just brush over though Bill is that with EFI LIVE you get "ALL" LS1's with that Stream, not just cars but trucks and anything else that ever had an LS1 and isn't on your list too. To do that with HPTuners is 60 Credits and brings the cost alot closer together and in favour of EFI LIVE. Yes choice is good, but so is simplicity. Most workshops will have the cash flow to justify getting a tool and just use it without having to worry understanding a complicated credit system. Even if they don't have the cash flow. The EFI licensing scheme is far simpler too. 1 vehicle = 1 licence. Doesn't get any simpler than that. Also what's it cost with HPTuners to get unlimited Gen 4 cars and trucks, 260 credits isn't it. That's like $13000. Yeah real cost effective.

foff667

iTrader: (2)

The original poster has already stated he had the LS1 car licenses, If I have the option to spend $1500 to tune the gen 3 cars vs $3300 I'm picking the $1500. And you can purchase the unlimited LS1 trucks license with our software at any time as well but we don't force our customers to license vehicles they don't want to ever tune ie trucks in this case.

1 vehicle=1 license
1 vehicle=2 credits

same price $99.xx different name. Hindsight is always 20/20 but thats pretty simple to understand for most.

As compared to what? EFILIVE?

Lets go there.

MPVI pro interface($649 comes with 8 credits)+252 additional credits at $30.99 each($7809)=$8460 with us

For efilive V2 interface($799)+E40 stream($2500)+E38 stream($2500)+E67 stream($2500)+T42 stream($1250)+T43 stream($1250)=10800 before the multiple stream discounts...wow that licensing is SOOO much simpler

You need to license 5 different streams to tune all gen 4's. So yeah real simple & real cost effective.

macca_779

Take the E40 off realistically as it wasn't used in enough models to justify the purchase. E38 and a T43 is what most guys use for 99% of gen4 work. For transmissions you can use all the spare trans licences not used on ls1's if you have them. That saves alot of money right there.

Frost

iTrader: (45)

...unless you think that being thorough means tuning transmissions (and you should), then it's two.

The cost to tune everything GenIV in EFILive makes me gasp. I tuned 6-7 2010 SS @ $100 each and guess what; 2010's are now unlocked as unlimited regardless of trans type. I never had to shell out over $1K because ALL of my single licenses are applied towards the unlimited VIN/year. You get half way there and then have to shell out for the rest (and the trans controllers as well).

If you are good at what you do, the results will be consistent regardless of platform.

foff667

iTrader: (2)

05 Corvette, 05-06 GTO, 06-07 Trailblazer SS, holdens, etc. Why take it off? Its a fair assumption that someone who's tuning 06+ corvettes will tune 05's as well unless you are trying to make it an unfair comparison for some reason.

-Bill

poconojoe

iTrader: (43)

Is this shown on your web site? If so I didn't find it, just the Year / Model licensing

I realize, the EFI gets you to buy a bigger pie, but, it makes each slice cheaper, but of course, if you buy too big of a pie, some will go to waste. Personally I like their style of license, since I do a lot of the of same family of PCM's, so I don't have to worry, if I'm going to need to get a different license, to do a certain vehicle, since as long as it uses the same family of PCM, I know it will be OK. That and the fact, EFI has no issues with mismatched VIN / OS's for swaps, where you have to VIN match the vehicle, for the emissions testing. In your favor, I will admit, for a newbie, that I feel your package would be little easier to use, especially when it comes to logging, but I like some of the features in EFI, to make it worth learning how to do it, plus it supports my roadrunner, I know you have your version of RTT, but its not the same thing.

joecar

You bought an AutoTap interface from B&B Electronics...

(the AutoTap interface can't flash your PCM, so you probably also used LS1Edit.)

(EFILive logging/scanning software ran on the AutoTap interface; EFILive did not have editing/flashing software back then.)

Then EFILive developed the V1 interface (which allowed flashing), and you wanted your B&B AutoTap interface upgraded to the EFILive V1 interface... is that what you wanted...?

There was no upgrade from AutoTap to EFILive V1... you would have had to simply purchase the EFILive V1 interface... there is no upgrade request to be made, you just buy the new interface.

(B&B and EFILive were/are not related in any manner... two separate companies.)

I'm certain that your email would not have been ignored, it maybe got lost, but it would have never been ignored... possibly you emailed someone other than EFILive, or used the wrong address; and I don't know who you would have called since EFILive is located in NZ... (did you possibly call B&B Electronics...?).

Your comment about your upgrade request being ignored makes no sense to me, but I do apologize if you feel that you were ignored (even though I know you could not have been ignored).


(and I will simply ignore your reference to gearheads/petrolheads... Aussies and Brits are perfectly capable of speaking English.)

foff667

iTrader: (2)

http://www.hptuners.com/products/vcmsuite_vehicles.php

30 credits for gen 3 cars
30 credits for gen 3 trucks

Actually this is incorrect.

Again mpvi pro($649 which comes with 8 credits)+52 credits to license both car/truck unlimited($2600)=$3149

efi v2($799)+LS1 b stream($2500)=$3300

Not sure about you but $3300 seems to be more EXPENSIVE than $3149 leaving ours being the less expensive alternative.

-Bill

poconojoe

iTrader: (43)

Since if fairness you showed the disconted price for HPT's credits, you should do the same for EFI. Since you get 20% for buying 5 streams at once it would be
E40 = $2000
E38 = $2000
E67 = $2000
T42 = $1000
T43 = $1000
V2 = $799
For a total of $8799
Only $340 more and I'm getting the other vehicles using the same PCM's included, I'd spend the little extra. So the only pricing advantages is the very little shops or guys doing their buddy's cars, that are the same model / year as theirs.

macca_779

You didn't take into account the 80% discount on the 2 licences you already had included (yes they count on stream discounts). So take $160 from $3300 and hello EFI LIVE is cheaper @ $3140 leaving yours the less capable and more expensive alternative. Plus you get the better hardware that HPTuners simply cannot match.

Big Geek

iTrader: (2)

Check this out slice (Keep in mind I am typing this after several Glenlivet n Diet Cokes. Cheers!!!!) I would rather pay more now for great customer service down the road than pay less and only get a chance at said service after an issue such as this blowing up. This is a mole hill that has turned into a mountain. Again, I have sung ya'll's praises far and wide for creating a piece of software that has NEVER ONCE let me down. I wish I could say the same for this issue here. Guy's in all seriousness if it were up to me I would take this opportunity to take away from this a resolve to step up and take a firm grasp on our customer service. Do what it takes to try and make each customer happy, not just as a whole but even do our best for the individual. These same individuals will sing your praises at each mountain top. They will cheer when you are up and pick you up when you fall. I was watching "Hoffa" the other day and something struck me. He makes a comment something to the affect of - "You slight someone and that ************ will hate you til the day he dies". I took something away from that but hell maybe thats just me...........

At the end of the day I always remember this -

Live like there is no tomorrow,
Love like there is no other and
Dance like no one is watching!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

foff667

iTrader: (2)

$9.00 congrats

No 2 bar for 98 LS1's, no custom os's for 06+ LS1's last I recall, no real time tuning custom os's.

Your splitting hairs my friend.

-Bill

foff667

iTrader: (2)

Sorry but we tried our best

We offered you a 25% discount on a new interface 10 months after sales support for the old interfaces expired.

Its a shame you got caught up in a tough situation, and its impossible to please everyone everytime, again we wish you all the best in your decision.