VA Speed tune - Never again.
01-22-2012, 11:33 AM
#181
Hey Phil, you ever going to apologize to me, or do I need to just keep bumping this thread out of spite? I mean Shawn must really be thankful to you for coming in here and blaming me for this, and throwing around the unfounded allegations they're too skeered to.
How bout I just keep posting more factual ugliness until you apologize? Standing by. Ready with pictures, and docs, and emails, and on, and on.
How bout I just keep posting more factual ugliness until you apologize? Standing by. Ready with pictures, and docs, and emails, and on, and on.
Secondly the OP posted a comment over on Corvetteforum basically taking a shot at the reliability of a Virginia Speed engine. "Being on my 3rd engine" The comment was exactly what I was told to be in the infamous email months ago warning current virginia speed customers reguarding Virginia Speeds inability to build a engine that lasted. Kinda concindental that the same comment I was heard about many months ago surfaces from a customer that you tune for.
01-22-2012, 11:39 AM
#182
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It just makes more sense (most of the time) to slowly shake your head, bite your typing finger, and look at the next thread of interest although the spread of questionable information is bothersome as it detracts from other results guys reading this stuff wanting to learn might run into.
-Tony
-Tony
Would love to see this 700 ft/lb pump gas 460 on a proper dyno.
01-22-2012, 11:54 AM
#183
Fact of the matter is perception is reality. You spoke with a VA Speed customer and offered to look at this tune and fix it(for free is what I am hearing) in exchange for a thread that states you fixed Virginia speed's bad tuning. This is not 2nd hand information. I didn't tape the conversation but I remember hearing that you would not tune it unless you had a "fixed the tune" thread. There is no reason why you didn't retune it besides the owner would not put up a thread you wanted. I've retuned more than a handful of local cars and I've never once asked for a thread stating I tweaked or fixed anyones tune.
Let's review the facts:
1: Customer posted, less than truthful that car in question "drove great in traffic"
2: Customer contacts ME and asks me to fix tune.
3: I explain I don't want to fix their tune without it being known publicly, based solely on the fact that what was first posted was less than truthful.
4: I posted the entire email chain as evidence.
And besides, I'm more referring to this thread, and Sonny's thread, and Mike's thread, and your insinuation of email list hacking.
It's OK, we'll play it your way. You keep going on perception, and I'll keep posting facts, supported by concrete evidence.
Secondly the OP posted a comment over on Corvetteforum basically taking a shot at the reliability of a Virginia Speed engine. "Being on my 3rd engine" The comment was exactly what I was told to be in the infamous email months ago warning current virginia speed customers reguarding Virginia Speeds inability to build a engine that lasted. Kinda concindental that the same comment I was heard about many months ago surfaces from a customer that you tune for.
Last edited by edcmat-l1; 01-22-2012 at 12:15 PM.
01-22-2012, 12:13 PM
#184
you can tell ed went on his own way has he was sick of the junk coming out of that shop.................
i really love to see the can of worms open up................and i think heaps more will come out and speak out........................................
credit to the op for coming out and sharing his story with facts....
vaspeed not coming in and replying just says-YUP WE GOT CAUGHT AGAIN AND HAVE RAN OUT OF LIES
i really love to see the can of worms open up................and i think heaps more will come out and speak out........................................
credit to the op for coming out and sharing his story with facts....
vaspeed not coming in and replying just says-YUP WE GOT CAUGHT AGAIN AND HAVE RAN OUT OF LIES
- Ed ran a shop before virginia speed, when times got tight he became an employee of Virginia speed
- AFAIK and saw there was no anomisity while the team worked together
- Ed was their "go-to" tuner
- I vaguely remember bits and pieces of a story where Ed left on personal business for about a month to go to China during that time they had no dedicated tuner(this fits into a timeline of another V/S customers build where the "Tuner left" and no tuning software was available)
- I heard/saw things online that Ed wanted to expand his tuning business but I dont think it was under the virginia speed banner which caused a conflict of interest between the 2 parties.
- Shortly there after the parties split
There is no doubt that Ed has a ton of experience and a great tuner on the HPT and EFI platforms, Shawn also has at ton of experience tuning engines with the engine dyno and aftermarket ECUs. The sole difference is the tuning software. IMO Ed and Shawn are great tuners when it comes to making power, the late model EFI systems is a complex animal that takes time to master and when faced with an employee leaving, you can't just turn away customers so I assume Shawn stepped up and tuned the car.
As far as Virginia Speed replys, the OP did not give the Vendor(I dont care who it is) the courtesy of a phone call before they posted this, why do they deserve the same courtesy in return?
I've talked to shawn on a weekly basis for the last 5 years or so and we talked about this situtation for a brief second a couple days ago and I asked the ONLY question I cared about which was the "knock sensors". His reply was "Phil, you've known me for 5 years now, do you really think I would do some dumb **** like that, it either had to be in the base tune or a keystoke error, I've never changed that portion of a tuneup". I've seen his tuning first hand when we go to the track, he is slow and methodical.
01-22-2012, 12:18 PM
#185
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Like I said you almost have to be a genius to get the tune correct on these computers. The fuel, timing tables are unbelievable along with all the sub categories. Tranny shift points vs rpm tire diameter. Hat's off to those who can do it.
01-22-2012, 12:20 PM
#186
No one really knows the story behind Ed leaving Virginia Speed except Virginia Speed & Ed, that story I am sure has 3 sides. The only facts I know
- Ed ran a shop before virginia speed, when times got tight he became an employee of Virginia speed
- AFAIK and saw there was no anomisity while the team worked together
- Ed was their "go-to" tuner
- I vaguely remember bits and pieces of a story where Ed left on personal business for about a month to go to China during that time they had no dedicated tuner(this fits into a timeline of another V/S customers build where the "Tuner left" and no tuning software was available)
- I heard/saw things online that Ed wanted to expand his tuning business but I dont think it was under the virginia speed banner which caused a conflict of interest between the 2 parties.
- Shortly there after the parties split
- Ed ran a shop before virginia speed, when times got tight he became an employee of Virginia speed
- AFAIK and saw there was no anomisity while the team worked together
- Ed was their "go-to" tuner
- I vaguely remember bits and pieces of a story where Ed left on personal business for about a month to go to China during that time they had no dedicated tuner(this fits into a timeline of another V/S customers build where the "Tuner left" and no tuning software was available)
- I heard/saw things online that Ed wanted to expand his tuning business but I dont think it was under the virginia speed banner which caused a conflict of interest between the 2 parties.
- Shortly there after the parties split
I didn't leave on personal business to China, I put in a fell two weeks notice, worked it and left. China was a completely different matter.
01-22-2012, 12:24 PM
#187
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I am not sure why he is concerned about what you do. You made a change. We all do.
01-22-2012, 12:28 PM
#188
It's a soap opera. Bottom line is, he thinks I'm orchestrating this, or at least behind the scenes perpetuating it. I'm not, and I'm pissed about being blamed for something I'm not doing. Va Speed accused me of doing things that I didn't do, and now Phil is.
01-22-2012, 12:37 PM
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I went in and quit my job for something I thought was better. My employer yelled at me and said I paid you through the winter when all I got paid was what I worked for. They lost a good employee. You have moved on and so should they. Seemingly they were not prepared. It happens.
01-22-2012, 02:54 PM
#192
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I've talked to shawn on a weekly basis for the last 5 years or so and we talked about this situtation for a brief second a couple days ago and I asked the ONLY question I cared about which was the "knock sensors". His reply was "Phil, you've known me for 5 years now, do you really think I would do some dumb **** like that, it either had to be in the base tune or a keystoke error, I've never changed that portion of a tuneup". I've seen his tuning first hand when we go to the track, he is slow and methodical.
When I talked to Shawn, he told me he wasn't the one who tuned it. Prior to the conversation, it was under the assumption that Shawn had tuned it.
But your posts makes it look like he did. So which one is it?
Regardless, I want to know why it was sent out the door the way it was. This is also confirmation that Shawn has indeed read this thread, and won't reply here, nor call me back. Shawn, I will be calling you tomorrow to discuss this.
Last edited by Black89Z51; 01-22-2012 at 04:15 PM.
01-25-2012, 11:56 AM
#194
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I've talked with VA Speed 3 times now. Apparently Shawn is too busy to talk, so I've been talking with Shannon. First off, she's obviously VERY pissed off about this thread. Secondly she has a hard time letting me talk, often talking over me and interrupting me. She doesn't understand cars, by her own admittance so when I talk about the tune she doesn't understand. When I explained what kind of damage spark knock causes, she had no clue what I was talking about.
Anyways, to the meat and potatoes. I talked with Shannon on Monday. She asked for the tune file that Ed pulled off my car before he made any changes. I sent that to her almost immediately. I also asked for their tune file. I've been waiting now for 2 days for this tune file. I called her today and asked for it. She says the guys are busy and can't send it to me until they get to her request to look at it and send it. So I asked "I'm under the assumption now that I have to wait for your file when I sent what you asked for upon request?" Her reply was "That is a correct assumption." I then pleaded with here for just 10 minutes of their time to send it to me. All of us know good and well that a file can be send in less than 2 minutes.
I'd also like to point out another quote from Shannon: "We have a good idea where this is all coming from." Really Shannon? Don't even begin to hint about Ed insinuating any of this. This has nothing to do with him or you.
And a second quote: "How do we know Ed didn't just change it so he could get money he needed via another tune and make us look bad?" Please. My car isn't anything special. He even said if it wasn't for the knock recovery table, I would have been fine, although not ideal by any means.
All I can assume right now is that VA Speed is trying to come up with a good story to tell me, along with making the files different in order to cover their tracks.
I don't think this is a company ANYBODY should be dealing with, EVER.
Anyways, to the meat and potatoes. I talked with Shannon on Monday. She asked for the tune file that Ed pulled off my car before he made any changes. I sent that to her almost immediately. I also asked for their tune file. I've been waiting now for 2 days for this tune file. I called her today and asked for it. She says the guys are busy and can't send it to me until they get to her request to look at it and send it. So I asked "I'm under the assumption now that I have to wait for your file when I sent what you asked for upon request?" Her reply was "That is a correct assumption." I then pleaded with here for just 10 minutes of their time to send it to me. All of us know good and well that a file can be send in less than 2 minutes.
I'd also like to point out another quote from Shannon: "We have a good idea where this is all coming from." Really Shannon? Don't even begin to hint about Ed insinuating any of this. This has nothing to do with him or you.
And a second quote: "How do we know Ed didn't just change it so he could get money he needed via another tune and make us look bad?" Please. My car isn't anything special. He even said if it wasn't for the knock recovery table, I would have been fine, although not ideal by any means.
All I can assume right now is that VA Speed is trying to come up with a good story to tell me, along with making the files different in order to cover their tracks.
I don't think this is a company ANYBODY should be dealing with, EVER.
01-27-2012, 02:47 PM
#195
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Shannon,
Over the last few weeks I have learned an abundance of information regarding tuning via HPTuners forum and also talking with Ed. This has been quite an experience, to say the least. I've learned quite a bit about cars. First, here is Shawn's reply in full. Below that, you will find my replies to his statement.
(To clarify the Red text is Shawn, the Blue text is me)
Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage.
That's the root of the problem right there. There are problems with the tune that could INDEED cause engine damage.
To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false.
No, this comment is just false. I'm not sure why he thinks having the ECU put in timing unbelievably fast after a knock event occurs is a good thing.
Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this.
I agree. If the tuners at VA Speed understood the function of the table in question, you would not make such an idiotic statement. But please, Shawn, school me.
The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Now we're seeing just how much experience you have with the later model PCMs. Had you had more experience with them, you'd know that from the factory, the knock sensors are so sensitive, that virtually ALL of them have some amount of knock retard even running 93 octane pump gas. So, does that mean they are "tuned improperly" from GM? We'll revisit this comment a bit later.
The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out.
This is where you are dead wrong, and potentially engine damaging dead wrong. The timing is not put back "fast in the absence of further knock". It is put back AFTER KNOCK HAS BEEN DETECTED AND TIMING IS PULLED. The PCM does not wait until it is no longer knocking. It begins to add the timing back at the rate specified in the knock retard recovery rate table. Don't go by the table definition. Go by EXPERIENCE, WHICH I KNOW YOU LACK. If you look at a data log of knock retard, you can see the timing is added back immediately after the knock occurs. How quickly it is restored is dependent on the recovery rate table. Again, the operation of this parameter is obvious in a data log. You need to completely disregard the table explanation, and look at a log. The table explanations aren't always right.
This is the root cause of the issues with my car. It was knocking audibly. Had the KR recovery rate table not been jacked up so high, the knock would not have been audible. Even if it were suffering from KR, it most likely would not have been audible. The reason it was audible is because the PCM was restoring the timing, faster than it could pull it back out. It resulted in uncontrollable knock. Surely we all know by being in the automotive field that knock isn't good for anything in the motor.
So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net.
I know you don't understand this, but VA Speed effectively disabled the knock retard.
The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine.
Apparently not if it was audibly knocking, and had no signs of ceasing. Again, the ECU was putting the timing back in so fast the engine couldn't recover from knock.
It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.
This almost not even worth responding to, but I will. To compare a street driven production car to a race car is idiotic. I guess since NASCAR cars don't have tread on their tires, we don't need that either, by your assessment? These production cars have hypereutectic pistons, and tight ring end gaps. A NASCAR engine has forged pistons, and low drag rings, with who knows what for a ring end gap. Production cars have to run on a variety of fuels. NASCAR engines run on tightly controlled quality fuel.
The piston issue is the real biggie here. No comparison in how a forged piston will tolerate detonation compared to a production hypereutectic. Again, I would have thought a professional engine builder would have understood this. So much for that.
Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know.
The "dyno number" was never in question. It was also not the purpose of retuning. At first the purpose of retuning was to get rid of the hacked PE table, and dial in the MAF table correctly.
As for conditions, yeah, it should have been worse conditions, which leads to my next question. If it was knocking as bad as it was in the cool weather, how bad could it have been in the heat when you tuned it? I wasn't there to witness the run.
Over the last few weeks I have learned an abundance of information regarding tuning via HPTuners forum and also talking with Ed. This has been quite an experience, to say the least. I've learned quite a bit about cars. First, here is Shawn's reply in full. Below that, you will find my replies to his statement.
Originally Posted by Shawn@VASpeed
Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage. The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine. To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false. Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this. There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.
The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out. A tune that is tuned to the very edge and then the knock sensors are relied upon to pull timing out during heat soak or extreme hot day is just not correct,in my opinion. What happens if you have a knock sensor failure? The check engine light doesn’t always pop on what there is a failure with systems in the ecu, sensor,wiring. So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net. The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out. It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.
Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know. This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.
Shawn Miller
Virginia Speed Inc.
757-468-5101
The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out. A tune that is tuned to the very edge and then the knock sensors are relied upon to pull timing out during heat soak or extreme hot day is just not correct,in my opinion. What happens if you have a knock sensor failure? The check engine light doesn’t always pop on what there is a failure with systems in the ecu, sensor,wiring. So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net. The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out. It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.
Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know. This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.
Shawn Miller
Virginia Speed Inc.
757-468-5101
(To clarify the Red text is Shawn, the Blue text is me)
Shannon, I looked over Brian’s tune. To be honest, I don’t see anything in it that would cause engine damage.
That's the root of the problem right there. There are problems with the tune that could INDEED cause engine damage.
To say that the the way the knock sensors were tuned would cause engine damage would just be false.
No, this comment is just false. I'm not sure why he thinks having the ECU put in timing unbelievably fast after a knock event occurs is a good thing.
Understanding the purpose of the knock sensors and how they work would let you know this.
I agree. If the tuners at VA Speed understood the function of the table in question, you would not make such an idiotic statement. But please, Shawn, school me.
The purpose of the knock sensors from GM is to combat running low octane gas in their vehicles. In a performance application with proper gas, the knock sensors should never see use. If they do, either the vehicle is tuned improperly or there is some other problem that would actually be covered up by the knock sensors pulling timing out without the driver knowing that the timing was being pulled out.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. Now we're seeing just how much experience you have with the later model PCMs. Had you had more experience with them, you'd know that from the factory, the knock sensors are so sensitive, that virtually ALL of them have some amount of knock retard even running 93 octane pump gas. So, does that mean they are "tuned improperly" from GM? We'll revisit this comment a bit later.
The knock sensors were still functional in this case, they just brought the timing back in fast in the absence of further spark knock, if the was still spark knock-the timing stayed out.
This is where you are dead wrong, and potentially engine damaging dead wrong. The timing is not put back "fast in the absence of further knock". It is put back AFTER KNOCK HAS BEEN DETECTED AND TIMING IS PULLED. The PCM does not wait until it is no longer knocking. It begins to add the timing back at the rate specified in the knock retard recovery rate table. Don't go by the table definition. Go by EXPERIENCE, WHICH I KNOW YOU LACK. If you look at a data log of knock retard, you can see the timing is added back immediately after the knock occurs. How quickly it is restored is dependent on the recovery rate table. Again, the operation of this parameter is obvious in a data log. You need to completely disregard the table explanation, and look at a log. The table explanations aren't always right.
This is the root cause of the issues with my car. It was knocking audibly. Had the KR recovery rate table not been jacked up so high, the knock would not have been audible. Even if it were suffering from KR, it most likely would not have been audible. The reason it was audible is because the PCM was restoring the timing, faster than it could pull it back out. It resulted in uncontrollable knock. Surely we all know by being in the automotive field that knock isn't good for anything in the motor.
So know you have the possibility of engine damage because you are tuned to the edge without your sensors you are now relying on instead of using as a safety net.
I know you don't understand this, but VA Speed effectively disabled the knock retard.
The timing map was in a very safe area for that engine.
Apparently not if it was audibly knocking, and had no signs of ceasing. Again, the ECU was putting the timing back in so fast the engine couldn't recover from knock.
It should be noted that most every racecar does not have knock sensors, most stand alone efi systems do not offer knock sensors, carbureted race engines do not employ knock sensors, in fact the new efi setup that NASCAR uses does not employ knock sensors. It’s always best to take a look at the racing world, see what they use and understand why they do or don’t use certain things. It is of my opinion that if a 800+hp race engine can go 500 miles at wide open throttle and not break an engine- they must not be a necessity.
This almost not even worth responding to, but I will. To compare a street driven production car to a race car is idiotic. I guess since NASCAR cars don't have tread on their tires, we don't need that either, by your assessment? These production cars have hypereutectic pistons, and tight ring end gaps. A NASCAR engine has forged pistons, and low drag rings, with who knows what for a ring end gap. Production cars have to run on a variety of fuels. NASCAR engines run on tightly controlled quality fuel.
The piston issue is the real biggie here. No comparison in how a forged piston will tolerate detonation compared to a production hypereutectic. Again, I would have thought a professional engine builder would have understood this. So much for that.
Brian’s car was tuned in the most extreme conditions, it was extremely hot in the shop with high humidity. These are the best times to actually tune as you usually won’t find worse conditions, now the problem is that these are the worse conditions for tuning for a number on the dyno, but what is really more important, a dyno number or a proper tune for conditions the engine may see in an extreme application? Tuning on a cool day can give you better dyno numbers, but what will happen on a hot day, you just don’t know.
The "dyno number" was never in question. It was also not the purpose of retuning. At first the purpose of retuning was to get rid of the hacked PE table, and dial in the MAF table correctly.
As for conditions, yeah, it should have been worse conditions, which leads to my next question. If it was knocking as bad as it was in the cool weather, how bad could it have been in the heat when you tuned it? I wasn't there to witness the run.
Last edited by Black89Z51; 01-27-2012 at 03:08 PM.
01-27-2012, 02:47 PM
#196
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This is why oem’s tune in climate controlled dyno cells. This allows them to see what the engine will act like in those extreme applications. Otherwise you are just guessing at what will happen.
I agree with this completely. This is also why they don't setup knock retard recovery rate table 180 times what the originally are. Because "you are just guessing at what will happen".
Look, fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in a OE calibration that should be jacked by 180 times. NOTHING! especially a "safety net" such as knock retard recovery. This isn't an arguable "method" of tuning. It is common sense.
There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.
While there is SOME debate on different techniques, there is little debate on how to interpret hard data. There is also little to debate over the disabling of certain systems in a PCM. In this case, we're not talking about the "technique" of hacking a PE table, as opposed to using proper math to achieve an A/F ratio. That is a debated subject, although it is widely accepted that the "correct" way to do it is the MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT way of commanding the desired A/F through PE, and not hacking it. No, in this case, we're talking about something as critical to engine health as timing, or too much timing, or no knock sensors, or too low of an octane rating.
Now, as far as technique, and quality of tuning, etc. there is plenty to pick apart in this tune. I have refrained from doing so, because none of it was critical. It was and is a shoddy tune, but NONE of it was critical to the life of the engine except for the KR table. The PE was hacked, the MAF was left to stock, the fan temps hadn't been changed, the skip shift wasn't removed,the O2 sensors weren't turned off initially, there's a big block of timing right at the top, just to give a "dyno number". Also, bad advice was given to me to change the upstream O2 sensors. Had the tuner known how O2 sensors worked with headers, he would have known that the parameters for expected latency in the O2 sensors would have to have been changed. Not changing the O2 sensors. That could have cost me money that I didn't need to spend. None of these things are unhealthy, they're just evidence of a quick crappy tune. It looks like no time was taken to do anything right, to give the customer a quality product or anything. And then, judging by this response by Shawn, it again appears as if they did nothing wrong, and the only reason anyone is questioning them is to discredit them. I think the tune speaks for itself, and so does their response.
In closing, I am respectfully asking for a refund of my money. Regardless of what VA Speed has done prior to, this is an extenuating case. I asked for a service from VA Speed and it wasn't done properly by any means. The tune was absolute garbage, and then the knock recovery issue could have cause serious engine damage. I asked for a quality "product" (that product being your tune) and I ended up with a quick "hack" job, done the easy way and not the right way. I don't believe this is what VA Speed intends to churn out, but unfortunately that is exactly what is being done.
Thank you for your time with this matter.
Sincerely,
Bryan
I agree with this completely. This is also why they don't setup knock retard recovery rate table 180 times what the originally are. Because "you are just guessing at what will happen".
Look, fact of the matter is, there is NOTHING in a OE calibration that should be jacked by 180 times. NOTHING! especially a "safety net" such as knock retard recovery. This isn't an arguable "method" of tuning. It is common sense.
There are many opinions on what proper tuning is but very little facts, most of the time right or wrong is just an opinion. Everything is debated in tuning from the correct air fuel ratio to how the vehicle should return to idle,everything is a opinion. The only thing that is agreed upon is that the tune should result in no engine damage,how you get there is wide open.
While there is SOME debate on different techniques, there is little debate on how to interpret hard data. There is also little to debate over the disabling of certain systems in a PCM. In this case, we're not talking about the "technique" of hacking a PE table, as opposed to using proper math to achieve an A/F ratio. That is a debated subject, although it is widely accepted that the "correct" way to do it is the MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT way of commanding the desired A/F through PE, and not hacking it. No, in this case, we're talking about something as critical to engine health as timing, or too much timing, or no knock sensors, or too low of an octane rating.
Now, as far as technique, and quality of tuning, etc. there is plenty to pick apart in this tune. I have refrained from doing so, because none of it was critical. It was and is a shoddy tune, but NONE of it was critical to the life of the engine except for the KR table. The PE was hacked, the MAF was left to stock, the fan temps hadn't been changed, the skip shift wasn't removed,the O2 sensors weren't turned off initially, there's a big block of timing right at the top, just to give a "dyno number". Also, bad advice was given to me to change the upstream O2 sensors. Had the tuner known how O2 sensors worked with headers, he would have known that the parameters for expected latency in the O2 sensors would have to have been changed. Not changing the O2 sensors. That could have cost me money that I didn't need to spend. None of these things are unhealthy, they're just evidence of a quick crappy tune. It looks like no time was taken to do anything right, to give the customer a quality product or anything. And then, judging by this response by Shawn, it again appears as if they did nothing wrong, and the only reason anyone is questioning them is to discredit them. I think the tune speaks for itself, and so does their response.
In closing, I am respectfully asking for a refund of my money. Regardless of what VA Speed has done prior to, this is an extenuating case. I asked for a service from VA Speed and it wasn't done properly by any means. The tune was absolute garbage, and then the knock recovery issue could have cause serious engine damage. I asked for a quality "product" (that product being your tune) and I ended up with a quick "hack" job, done the easy way and not the right way. I don't believe this is what VA Speed intends to churn out, but unfortunately that is exactly what is being done.
Thank you for your time with this matter.
Sincerely,
Bryan
01-27-2012, 02:48 PM
#197
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This was the reply I received:
No explaination on my previous email where I replied to Shawn's statement. The reason I didn't revisit VA Speed was a trust issue. I'm not going to take it back to them to adjust their hack tune, since obviously they have no clue how to correctly tune a car. Not to mention, according to Shawn's evaluation said that the tune was fine and dandy, and there was NOTHING wrong with it. FFS....
So I shot this back:
And this:
Bryan,
Good morning.
Upon picking up your vehicle in July of 2011 and revisiting us shortly after, you did not address any concerns with your vehicle. Recently, information regarding Virginia Speed's tune was provided to you by another tuner. We would have welcomed the opportunity to review your tune with you and address any concerns you may have had. However, we were not given this opportunity. This would have been the proper procedure requested by Virginia Speed, Inc.. Unfortunately, we are unable to meet your request for a refund.
Best Regards,
Shannon
Virginia Speed, Inc.
1397 Taylor Farm Road,
Virginia Beach, VA 23453
757-468-5101
Good morning.
Upon picking up your vehicle in July of 2011 and revisiting us shortly after, you did not address any concerns with your vehicle. Recently, information regarding Virginia Speed's tune was provided to you by another tuner. We would have welcomed the opportunity to review your tune with you and address any concerns you may have had. However, we were not given this opportunity. This would have been the proper procedure requested by Virginia Speed, Inc.. Unfortunately, we are unable to meet your request for a refund.
Best Regards,
Shannon
Virginia Speed, Inc.
1397 Taylor Farm Road,
Virginia Beach, VA 23453
757-468-5101
No explaination on my previous email where I replied to Shawn's statement. The reason I didn't revisit VA Speed was a trust issue. I'm not going to take it back to them to adjust their hack tune, since obviously they have no clue how to correctly tune a car. Not to mention, according to Shawn's evaluation said that the tune was fine and dandy, and there was NOTHING wrong with it. FFS....
So I shot this back:
Shannon,
VA Speed's lack of effort to work with a former customer is monumental. It really shows the true intentions of your shop, and lack of integrity and professionalism, not to mention lack of a tuner who knows how to tune. It is for these reasons that I will not recommend your services to anyone that so inquires. VA Speed's inability to solve problems that arise show everyone what kind of shop is run there. These findings, accompanied by facts will be posted on several forums as a review of VA Speed.
Good day.
VA Speed's lack of effort to work with a former customer is monumental. It really shows the true intentions of your shop, and lack of integrity and professionalism, not to mention lack of a tuner who knows how to tune. It is for these reasons that I will not recommend your services to anyone that so inquires. VA Speed's inability to solve problems that arise show everyone what kind of shop is run there. These findings, accompanied by facts will be posted on several forums as a review of VA Speed.
Good day.
Shannon,
I'd also like to add that according to Shawn's evaluation, he is
saying that the tune was acceptable. VA Speed's tune on my car was
downright DANGEROUS. If the engine had blown up at speed, there is no
telling what the car have done. Thrown me into a wall? Hit the grass
and flipped?
Food for thought.
Bryan
I'd also like to add that according to Shawn's evaluation, he is
saying that the tune was acceptable. VA Speed's tune on my car was
downright DANGEROUS. If the engine had blown up at speed, there is no
telling what the car have done. Thrown me into a wall? Hit the grass
and flipped?
Food for thought.
Bryan
02-07-2012, 07:56 AM
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Just an update. I have discovered that instead of facing the recent rash of unhappy customers, and their internet threads, Va Speed has decided to stop sponsoring ls1tech.com and corvetteforum.com. While most companies would face the allegations head on, and let everyone know what they're trying to do to improve their product, and renew customer relations, Va Speed has went the opposite way and have decided that sponsoring the internet boards is either too problematic or not worth their time. To me, stopping their sponsorship of these boards is just an indication of not wanting to address the real issues. Regardless what you think of it, the fact is that at no point in any of the threads concerning their work, have they even one time given any indication of wanting to improve their quality and have only deflected blame on others.
I just thought this was significant information anyone seeking any type of work would want to know before choosing to have this company do anything for them.
I just thought this was significant information anyone seeking any type of work would want to know before choosing to have this company do anything for them.
02-09-2012, 02:08 PM
#199
I just have one thing to say. We've been ussing Shawns shortblocks for years and never/ever a failure. Cars from 500hp 418 strokers to 850rwhp FI daily drivers. Wish I could say that about some shortblocks we got from other places.
As for the inhouse installs,customer service and tuning ect - I have no idea since we just do shortblock builds through them.
As for the inhouse installs,customer service and tuning ect - I have no idea since we just do shortblock builds through them.
