sonnyinva

After VA Speed finished my rebuild, Ed did my tune and I paid him good money for it. He certainly did not offer a discount or to do it for free or in any way try to entice me to post negative comments about VA Speed.

The car is at VA Speed right now and they are working on it, and I hope that it will all be worked out. I will definitely let you guys know how it turns out.

Black89Z51

iTrader: (2)

Good to hear things are getting worked out Sonny. It's unfortunate that things had to go this far, but it is what it is.

Your post is one of the major ones that made me question va speed in the first place.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

So a readers digest version....

- You had va speed do some work/tune june/july maybe
- couple months go by
- you return to have only a check engine light addressed over those few months you noticed no driveability or reliability issues
- few more months go by and no concerns
- january almost 6-7 months later you talk to Ed and somehow the tune gets questioned
- you never once called Virginia speed and expressed any concern for the tune after ed suggested it might need to be tweaked
- during those 5-7 months no concerns were expressed to Virginia Speed
- you have Ed tune your car 1st week in January
- 3 days later you post a thread expressing your dissatisfaction with their tune
- a week after the **** storm thread is posted you call virginia speed to express your dissatisfaction

Sorry but its a dick move to bash a vendor(I dont care who it is) before you give them a shot to fix the issue.

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

So,,,,,,,,, You're off my butt now? Is this still all my fault? No admitting you were wrong? Is this how it's going to be next time? Just asking, so I can be prepared. You know, with facts and all.

Black89Z51

iTrader: (2)

It was August.
Yes the check engine light came on the next day. Why, because they didn't do something they said was the first thing they do.
Check engine still coming on, they say I need to change O2 sensors. I find out that's not the case. It's just another change in the tune that has to be done.
A bunch of quality control issues come up and I question the quality of the tune. If I called VA Speed expressing my concern, what the F do you think they are going to say? "Naw man, we didn't have a whole lot of time to work on your ****, so we just pecked at the keyboard and said 'Good Nuff' ".

You're living in a dream world Hoss.

And by the way, I'd like to point out that NOT ONCE have you defended the tune they gave me. You've just expressed OVER AND OVER AND OVER how displeased you are that I didn't call VA Speed after I found out I had a garbage tune.

You're a broken record, sir.

AlohaC5

iTrader: (2)

This is my understanding based on my review of this thread:

o Customer takes car to VA Speed for a dyno and street tune

o VA Speed states they achieved +25 horsepower - tuned by Shawn (VA Speed Engine Builder)

o Customer CEL comes on after taking delivery of his car and told he needs new 02 sensors

o Customer performs research on VA Speed and learns of quality control issues and problems

o Customer becomes concerned about the quality of his tune since he plans to do HPDE or TT

o Ed contacts customer to see if he was the one that tuned his car, or if it was someone else

o Ed offers to check the problematic tune since the customer requested help for peace of mind

o VA Speed tune increased the knock retard recovery rate by 9,000% and made the AFR too rich

o Ed recommended using Seafoam to cleanup the intake from the excessively rich AFR condition

o Ed offered to retune afterward, which allowed more timing and netted 10 more HP with less KR

o Customer contacts Shawn on 16 January to discuss issue - no response in 4 days and counting

Going back to the shop to fix a mechanical problem is different than going back to fix a tuning issue.

You can have the shop replace a wire, tighten a bolt and repair a leak based on faulty workmanship.

Going back to a tuner that did a poor job tuning with the hope of an improved tune No Thanks.

LT1Formula007

iTrader: (66)

^^ EXACTLY WHAT I GOT FROM ALL THIS TOO!
It's pretty sad that nobody from VA Speed has even chimed in here. Apparently they are too busy to make an attempt at fixing a problem, or obtaining a good reputation. I guess it's 1 of those... who cares, we have our loyal customers to take care of. So screw everybody else!
This is really disturbing considering I was planning on doing a Build with them just last year. It pretty much came down to VA Speed, Vengeance Racing, AES, And ERL. I know who I won't be having touch my engine.
To think I was quoted $16,900 for an engine from a shop who obviously doesn't give 2 ***** about their customers. And Thats obvious by the lack of response in this thread, and the lack of communication with an upset customer. Sooo Glad I chose another company for my build!
I work in the automotive field (and Yes I will say it...You Can't please Everyone) But an Attempt is better than nothing at all.
Hell, I would really just like to hear their side of the story!

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

1) I agree with you that the A/F was not perfectly flat, could it have used a couple more pulls to tweak it so it was perfect. Virginia Speed never claimed to be a master HP Tuner.

2) Yes, Ed did a fantastic job of smoothing out the A/F and seafoaming to be able to add more timing. I'm alittle disappointed that with the A/F and timing, it didn't pickup more. You picked up a solid 10hp/10tq according to the correction factor. If the tuneup was garbage you would have picked up a solid 30+, I've seen that a few times. Knowing that you seafoamed the motor and added 5 degrees of timing and gained 10rwhp/rwtq....

3) As far as the knock retard table, I am very familiar with what that does on the C5. If the tuner knows what these motors like there is no need for a knock sensor. It should not have had a large change but mistakes happen when editing.

4) You mention that the last dyno pull from virginia speed was wavy showing knock BUT....
The first pull at Ed's shop tune untouched was smooth, did it magically fix itself?

5) What caused it to lean out a full point from 3000 to 3750 from the last pull at VA Speed? Did it have anything to do with weather conditions at the dyno? August was in the 100s and January was in the 30s. Did the drastic change in atmospheric conditions change the A/F?

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

I'll respond below...

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

Phil, you already came in here and questioned my integrity, and I shot that down. You really want to question me technically? Seriously? You aren't doing them any favors. Every time you post, you do 2 things. You bump this thread, and you make them and yourself look worse.

Look, had you never posted and drug me into it, I would have stayed out of this completely.

I'd rather not continue this, but I will if you continue to push the issue. It won't do anything but get worse for them.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

Its tough to communicate with customers who dont call. Fact is, Virginia speed has heard from the OP 3 times, once when the car was tuned, second time when the rear O2s needed to be deleted which was done with no bitching(2-3 months later) and third time(2-3 months after the 2nd contact), a week after this bash thread came out. I am sure if you work in the automotive field you can understand this.

AlohaC5

iTrader: (2)

The timeline (readers digest version) is based on posts provided by the OP, so you can direct your questions to him. This thread began on 9 January - 11 days ago, and he contacted Shawn 4 days ago. What's next? Are you going to blame Global Warming for the poor tune from Virginia Speed? Fact is there is an increasing number of dissatisfied customers coming from Virginia Speed for approx. 7 months now, and they should be asking themselves, Why? I had my own issues with this shop, which can be traced back to a lack of attention to detail, customer service, and workmanship.

I know the guy that lost his engine at VIR - I was there - and it was the first HPDE after taking delivery of his Corvette from Virginia Speed (the photo of the damaged piston)... Based on my personal experience, I found that if you're a "Big Spender" - $25K+, you get adequate attention, but if you're the average guy $8K to $20K; you're treated as a 2nd class citizen that gets rushed through the system, or placed on hold for the "Big Spenders". YMMV.



It doesn't take a tuning 'genius' to know you shouldn't DISABLE the safeguards that protect the engine against damaging knock..... perhaps you're suggesting the OP should have waited until his engine looked like this one.....

LT1Formula007

iTrader: (66)

-I agree, When customers do not call and give you a 2nd chance at fixing it then it is hard to correct an issue!

-However, I personally would not have taken it back after knowing the tune was screwed up in the first place. If it was off a little here and there thats ok. I'd give them a 2nd chance. Everyone makes mistakes. We are all human! But if it was WAY off then Hell No I wouldn't want them to even touch my car again! Just my honest oppinion there.

-And I do work in the automotive field and I sometimes catch that "well every since you did this ..... , my car does this....." Bullsh!t. Being an employee, I do what I can to make it right b/c I want them to return. That's how I make my living. By their repeat business.
But If I offer nothing, or avoid a customer completely by blowing them off... then I deserve whatever bashing I get from that person.

This is a very touchy subject for both VA Speed (I'm sure) and the OP.
You have a companies reputation at stake - Which I feel they don't even care about, by them not setting it straight. At least not telling us their side of the story.
And the OP, b/c he had to pay for a tune 2 times in order to get a good tune. And he was lucky that there was no serious damage to his engine as a result of VA Speed's negligence to offer a quality tune!

At my shop, Customer is Priority 1.
Have we ate thousands of $$$ to keep an honest name? Even when we were in the right? Yes!
Does that mean we do shady work, No!
It just means we want to make people happy by providing them with honest, quality, affordable auto repairs at whatever the cost may be.
It takes 1 person to give a shop a bad name and cost them Thousands of $$$. Ever notice how when someone gets good service, you rarely hear about it. BUT, When shitty work is done... EVERYONE hears about it?

Prime example right here.

I remember when a guy came in for brakes, We called with an estimate and he approved. Then he came back after picking it up complaining of noise. We looked at it and drove it several times. No Noise was heard. He picked the car up again. A few days later, same thing. He left the car again. So we replaced EVERYTHING (Pads and Rotors) and lubed all contact points. Didn't charge him anything. He picked it up. He came back again a week later stating he hears noise. Again we drive it and never heard a noise. We offered him a refund b/c we couldn't fix his problem, We never heard the noise, and we told him to keep the brakes. It was Our Loss!
What does the guy do, bashes us on a local site saying we overcharged him and he just wanted his $ back. But yet he agreed to the price. Which by the way, was quoted Right out of the Labor guide. And we didn't even mark the brakes up like we normally did b/c he was a new customer. We wanted him to be happy with our work and prices.
Long story short, I feel like he just wanted something for nothing and Bitched about it til we gave him his $ back!
Well he got his $ back... And 3 months later he returned to have more work done. I personally wanted NOTHING to do with him, but I repaired his car anyways and now he is a loyal customer. Ironically enough!

Just show's how a little give - goes a long way! That $300 brake job has made us Lots of money off of this guy!

Either way, I'm not directly involved, But I would love to see VA Speed step up to the plate and offer something to this guy!

Just my .02

butler

If you tune a car in thirty degree weather does that mean when the humidity goes up along with the temperature you have to get it retuned? If that were the case you might as well have the tuner move in and when you go somewhere he can grab his laptop. Hahahaha.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

I know Ed is your buddy and you dont tune so I really dont expect you to know how weather effects a tune.

Are you going to blame Global Warming for the poor tune from Virginia Speed?
The reason the factory ECU has oxygen sensors is it needs them to correct the Air/Fuel to changing atmospheric conditions. As weather changes along with barometric pressure, temp, humidity the tuneup is going to change and is why GM uses oxygen sensors. They can correct the A/F up to 25% either way.

I guess it would have been an interesting test if the OP had gone through the normal chain of command of an "unsatisfied" customer eventhough he had said the car drove great on the revisit to virginia speed for the rear O2 fix tuneup. You know the whole customer calls the shop and says he is worried about the tune than Virginia speed is either going to A) Tell him to come in and lets get it fixed or B) Tell him to pound sand.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

The A/F is going to move, there is no 2 ways around that. A 5% swing in accuracy will show a .7 change in A/F. So 13.0:1 could become 13.7:1, and 13.0 could become 12.75%. GM is limited by cost on their powertrain program. They have to be able to sell a product in a specific price point to attract a customer, that price point is going to dictate a ECU that has flaws and hence the reason for O2 sensors(a wideband 5 volt) would be a step up. A Motec would be a step up but the price point does not work in the gm pricing model for their vehicles.

edcmat-l1

iTrader: (10)

And we know you're Shawn's buddy, so you wanna just let it die or we going to keep this up all day?

Even by your admittance, it was tuned by them in the summer, and me in the winter. Even though it was no where near 30 deg. If you'd like I can get the exact conditions for you.

Now, on to the knock issue. You said it would be more likely to knock in the heat, yet I had horrible knock in the cool whether, with only 18-19 degrees of timing max. How much timing should you be able to run in a header only LS2? You tune, surely you must know the answer to this. So, if we're in significantly cooler temps, and by your admittance it should be more prone to knock in the heat, when they tuned it, and we're only seeing 19 degrees, would you not think, AS A TUNER, something isn't right? I mean, if you've tuned a few of these things, you know what they take, what they average. If one comes in that for some reason won't take the norm (as far as timing) wouldn't you want to know why? Wouldn't you look further, or just bang some keys on the keyboard and kick it out the door?

Not only was it knocking AUDIBLY, but the recovery rate was so freekin high IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY RECOVER FROM THE KNOCK. That's the real kicker here. A key part of the protection was nearly completely disabled!!!

Now, combine that with a customer that says "yeah I track it on a road course" what would your approach be, AS A TUNER, PHIL?

I mean, if it's knocking so bad I can hear it, IN THE COOLER TEMPS, then how bad could it possibly be in the heat? How bad could it have been WHEN THEY TUNED IT? I mean, not only could I not get the PROPER amount of timing in it WITHOUT it knocking, IT WAS TO TUNED TO NEVER RECOVER ONCE IT DID KNOCK!!!

As for how much power it made before and after, there is no magical amount per degree of timing, or per point of A/F ratio. I could care less what the difference is. It's not about the difference. It's about getting the proper amount of timing in it for the combo. Getting the A/F where it's SAFE for what HE'S USING THE CAR FOR, and most importantly RESTORING THE CAR'S "BUILT IN" DAMAGE CONTROL TO SOMETHING THAT WOULD ACTUALLY CONTROL DAMAGE IF THE NEED ARISES.

Maybe he should have waited until his pistons looked like the one in the picture before seeking a second opinion.

grifter757

iTrader: (11)

If a shop says there going to "tune" a car then why does it get brought up "well hes a master engine builder, not a tuner"? Then why the F*** is he tuning. Don't get me wrong as a person Shawn is a pretty good guy, he lives two houses down from me. But Va Speed as a shop has quality issues and the owner, well, I wont tell you what the owner is.

Oh and here is our Virginia forum and the thread about Sonny's car. These our local guys who won't TOUCH that shop.
http://www.vadriven.com/forums/vendo...-motor-424681/

Enjoy.

Phil99vette

iTrader: (11)

Is that the car that had no oil pressure because the oil sender broke and broken pieces of the oil pressure sender were found in the oil pan? Just askin.

Black89Z51

iTrader: (2)

Here we go with the broken record again. Thanks for all the bumps though to keep this one at the top.

And I'd like to correct you on something. You mentioned putting front O2 sensors in the rear location to help them respond faster.

The rear O2 sensors are the cat-monitoring sensors and they're turned off. The front O2 sensors monitor engine AFR for adjustment. You should know that, being a super tuner and all. Having headers on the car instead of thick manifolds reduces the temperature of the exhaust gases significantly (the headers just can't keep the heat in by the time they get to the O2 sensor). Therefore, instead of replacing the O2 sensors which VA Speed suggested, all that was needed was a change in the tune to expect slower responses from the O2 sensors.

Again, broken record.

Repeating myself again, just for you Phil.

I figure that if you repeat yourself enough times to the ignorant, they'll eventually get it.