Bogart disappointment...
05-13-2004, 10:51 AM
#1
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Castro Valley, CA
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bogart disappointment... There is an important distinction to make in this report: while dissatisfied with the Bogart product, I was very well treated by the distributor SJM manufacturing. Steve is a stand-up guy who did everything he could to take care of me as a customer. He communicated quickly and often, and understood my views.
That said, here's my experience. I waited a couple of months to have 17x9 Bogart RR10's made, and when they arrived they were beautiful... wow. The speed shop sent them out with my Nittos to be mounted and balanced, but the wheel shop guy sent 'em back without even putting the tires on. He'd marked each wheel with various flaws in the barrel that he felt caused all of them to be "way out" on his balancer.
I took the wheels to a second garage, one that I personally trust very much. Again, I was told that there was massive hop and wobble when the wheels were mounted on the balancer, with a quote from the tech: "worst I've ever seen".
Importantly, this shop made it very clear to me that the problem with the Bogarts was not due to the fact that valve stems had been installed in the rims, nor was the lack of having a tire mounted throwing the machine off. The most obvous problem was excessive runout in both radial and side-to-side dimensions. Simply put, their opinion was that a person would have a hell of a time balancing these wheels, and even if successful, they wouldn't trust them to be run at any significant speeds.
I sent the wheels back to Bogart, and was amazed when they pronounced them within spec.
Faced with such black and white differing opinions, I had no choice but to ask for my money back. SJM manufacturing made that happen, to their credit.
Bottom line: not being a wheel expert, without the machinery and expertise to test them myself, I can't tell you what the truth is. But two different wheel shops came back with very poor impressions of these RR10's, and recommended that I send them back.
Buyer beware.
Rich Erickson
That said, here's my experience. I waited a couple of months to have 17x9 Bogart RR10's made, and when they arrived they were beautiful... wow. The speed shop sent them out with my Nittos to be mounted and balanced, but the wheel shop guy sent 'em back without even putting the tires on. He'd marked each wheel with various flaws in the barrel that he felt caused all of them to be "way out" on his balancer.
I took the wheels to a second garage, one that I personally trust very much. Again, I was told that there was massive hop and wobble when the wheels were mounted on the balancer, with a quote from the tech: "worst I've ever seen".
Importantly, this shop made it very clear to me that the problem with the Bogarts was not due to the fact that valve stems had been installed in the rims, nor was the lack of having a tire mounted throwing the machine off. The most obvous problem was excessive runout in both radial and side-to-side dimensions. Simply put, their opinion was that a person would have a hell of a time balancing these wheels, and even if successful, they wouldn't trust them to be run at any significant speeds.
I sent the wheels back to Bogart, and was amazed when they pronounced them within spec.
Faced with such black and white differing opinions, I had no choice but to ask for my money back. SJM manufacturing made that happen, to their credit.
Bottom line: not being a wheel expert, without the machinery and expertise to test them myself, I can't tell you what the truth is. But two different wheel shops came back with very poor impressions of these RR10's, and recommended that I send them back.
Buyer beware.
Rich Erickson
05-13-2004, 03:37 PM
#3
Rich and others,
Thanks for your feedback. Being positive or negative, we do appreciate it. I would like to add a few comments for clarification on Bogart’s end. The rims were returned upon my suggestion since there was question on if there were defects that may have been missed upon quality control. No one is perfect, mistakes do happen.
Upon returning the rims, they were spin checked for runnout and roundness and found that all three met specs of less then .030. One was found to be right at the fringe of .030 though did pass (.030 is passing). Since being a concern for Rich, Bogart agreed to re-barrel the one rim that was passing but at the edge of spec at no cost.
Since the tire service centers Rich had check the rims are not a manufacture or designer of rims or set up to check for problems, without measuring and analysis, it is difficult to say with assurance the rims are out of specification.
For clarification, a rim is measured with trueness at the bead surfaces, not the outer portion of the rim. Since rims are polished, ANY polishing can remove material in spots and can make them appear "out of round", or have a dip or valley. This has no effect on the wheels roundness or runnout at the BEAD tire mounting surface. Any polishing can do this to material and is not partial to Bogart rims.
Rich felt that the tire service center was more qualified in determining that the rims were not within spec. Though Bogart and I disagree with his service center's findings from physical measuring, Rich is warranted to do what he feels is best. IF they were out of spec they most certainly would ALL have been replaced/repaired at no cost to Rich.
An initial concern from Rich was that the service tire stated the rims were made back in 1996 from the stamping on the rim and they may be old rejects. This marking that the service center inaccuratly referrenced was ACTUALLY referring to 190 mil and T6061 aluminum. Regarding balancing a rim, rims are NOT balanced without tires. I have no idea why a tire service center would even try to balance them without a tire.
It is VERY rare that any rim would be balanced as variance in material thickness from polishing; removing (drilled) material for a valve stem etc is needed.
Even after the tire is installed, the rim (if balanced prior to installation was balanced), it MOST likely will not be in balance due to the tire and valve stems are added. What is important is a rim needs to be balanced AND true WITH a tire on. I might comment that ALL the rims returned had marking indicating a point on the rim that were ALL opposite the valve stem which would account for the weight of the valve stem (or not installed).
Bogart rims are custom manufactured per customers needs. Typically, custom parts are NOT returnable. This policy is not only Bogart’s, but practiced throughout the car industry as well as other industries. I want to reiterate strongly that Bogart WAS willing to do whatever it took to repair the rims at no cost to Rich (or any customer for that matter). IF a rim does not need repaired, then there is nothing that can be done to them. This WAS the case for Rich's order. We can't fix something that isn't broke.
Though it is against standard practice when a customer orders custom parts we did authorize a refund to Rich. It IS customary for MOST to implement a restocking fee. I believe MOST if not all companies will not return custom manufactured merchandise for a full refund when there is nothing wrong with the products.
It is not feasible for potential customers to order and have built custom parts and try them out, and then want to return them for free(I’m not indicating that this was what Rich was doing...this is just a comment). This is one reason for charging re-stocking fees. We as well as other companies are not in business to loose money. When parts are mass produced, and not car specific, returns typically are standard and completely acceptable.
Bogart has been producing these and other rims since the late 70's, early 80's. If a product was produced that was not acceptable in the automotive community, they would have been out of business many years ago. I would say that Bogart's reputation is impeccable and is known for producing extremely well manufactured products.
To give credit for this particular transaction, I suppose one rim could be sent out bad by mistake, but to say all four rims produced would have been bad and sent out is highly unlikely to occur. I am not stating Rich is fabricating his thoughts, but he is presenting his experience through companies that are more then likely not able to test correctly rims. Once again, if the rims were bad, they WOULD have been replaced at no cost.
Since the rims are custom, there are costs that both Bogart and I will not recoup. They will be disassembled with most of the parts non-reusable.
Steve
Pres.
Thanks for your feedback. Being positive or negative, we do appreciate it. I would like to add a few comments for clarification on Bogart’s end. The rims were returned upon my suggestion since there was question on if there were defects that may have been missed upon quality control. No one is perfect, mistakes do happen.
Upon returning the rims, they were spin checked for runnout and roundness and found that all three met specs of less then .030. One was found to be right at the fringe of .030 though did pass (.030 is passing). Since being a concern for Rich, Bogart agreed to re-barrel the one rim that was passing but at the edge of spec at no cost.
Since the tire service centers Rich had check the rims are not a manufacture or designer of rims or set up to check for problems, without measuring and analysis, it is difficult to say with assurance the rims are out of specification.
For clarification, a rim is measured with trueness at the bead surfaces, not the outer portion of the rim. Since rims are polished, ANY polishing can remove material in spots and can make them appear "out of round", or have a dip or valley. This has no effect on the wheels roundness or runnout at the BEAD tire mounting surface. Any polishing can do this to material and is not partial to Bogart rims.
Rich felt that the tire service center was more qualified in determining that the rims were not within spec. Though Bogart and I disagree with his service center's findings from physical measuring, Rich is warranted to do what he feels is best. IF they were out of spec they most certainly would ALL have been replaced/repaired at no cost to Rich.
An initial concern from Rich was that the service tire stated the rims were made back in 1996 from the stamping on the rim and they may be old rejects. This marking that the service center inaccuratly referrenced was ACTUALLY referring to 190 mil and T6061 aluminum. Regarding balancing a rim, rims are NOT balanced without tires. I have no idea why a tire service center would even try to balance them without a tire.
It is VERY rare that any rim would be balanced as variance in material thickness from polishing; removing (drilled) material for a valve stem etc is needed.
Even after the tire is installed, the rim (if balanced prior to installation was balanced), it MOST likely will not be in balance due to the tire and valve stems are added. What is important is a rim needs to be balanced AND true WITH a tire on. I might comment that ALL the rims returned had marking indicating a point on the rim that were ALL opposite the valve stem which would account for the weight of the valve stem (or not installed).
Bogart rims are custom manufactured per customers needs. Typically, custom parts are NOT returnable. This policy is not only Bogart’s, but practiced throughout the car industry as well as other industries. I want to reiterate strongly that Bogart WAS willing to do whatever it took to repair the rims at no cost to Rich (or any customer for that matter). IF a rim does not need repaired, then there is nothing that can be done to them. This WAS the case for Rich's order. We can't fix something that isn't broke.
Though it is against standard practice when a customer orders custom parts we did authorize a refund to Rich. It IS customary for MOST to implement a restocking fee. I believe MOST if not all companies will not return custom manufactured merchandise for a full refund when there is nothing wrong with the products.
It is not feasible for potential customers to order and have built custom parts and try them out, and then want to return them for free(I’m not indicating that this was what Rich was doing...this is just a comment). This is one reason for charging re-stocking fees. We as well as other companies are not in business to loose money. When parts are mass produced, and not car specific, returns typically are standard and completely acceptable.
Bogart has been producing these and other rims since the late 70's, early 80's. If a product was produced that was not acceptable in the automotive community, they would have been out of business many years ago. I would say that Bogart's reputation is impeccable and is known for producing extremely well manufactured products.
To give credit for this particular transaction, I suppose one rim could be sent out bad by mistake, but to say all four rims produced would have been bad and sent out is highly unlikely to occur. I am not stating Rich is fabricating his thoughts, but he is presenting his experience through companies that are more then likely not able to test correctly rims. Once again, if the rims were bad, they WOULD have been replaced at no cost.
Since the rims are custom, there are costs that both Bogart and I will not recoup. They will be disassembled with most of the parts non-reusable.
Steve
Pres.
Last edited by steve10; 05-31-2004 at 11:51 AM.
