Prc/tsp/racetech
07-16-2005, 09:39 PM
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This is what I was trying to post on the other thread when it was locked:
Originally Posted by Lady Redhawk
I don't presume to know all that is going on here, but this is what I do know. We have personally spent over $20,000 in the last year with the guys at TSP. They have proven to be the most honest and up front guys we have ever done business with. Jason will do exactly what he says he will do and he will do what is right!
That being said, I do wonder why AFR and Tony would agree to flow these heads if he really didn't want to stir anything up. What good reason would a business to do that if it wasn't self serving in some way? It isn't like they couldn't get a set of PRCs on their own without involving TSP's customers. Under the circumstances, with all the resent discussions about these two competitors, if a business wanted to say above reproach, they should have refused to flow these heads and recommend someone else, like Thunder Racing to flow them.
That being said, I do wonder why AFR and Tony would agree to flow these heads if he really didn't want to stir anything up. What good reason would a business to do that if it wasn't self serving in some way? It isn't like they couldn't get a set of PRCs on their own without involving TSP's customers. Under the circumstances, with all the resent discussions about these two competitors, if a business wanted to say above reproach, they should have refused to flow these heads and recommend someone else, like Thunder Racing to flow them.
07-17-2005, 02:53 AM
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Lets clear this up real quick.. And I've already said this once..
Tony did not come to me or approach me about this at all.. I contacted him a few weeks back about flowing these heads for me. I was informed by Brent @ TEA about some shady stuff that was going on with TSP/PRC so it got me thinking and I really just wanted to see what the heads would do. I honestly expected some numbers in the 300/225 range but I guess I was wrong. Tony did not want to be involved in anything like this.. He wanted to test the heads, give me my results, and be done with it. These heads were being pimped pretty hard so we were both interested in what they had to offer since we both knew about the shady crap that was involved with them. He told me not to bring his name up on this board or any board for that matter and thats exactly what I did. But, then everyone started speculating and there you have it. I don't think Tony would lie or put up "tainted" numbers when he knows good and damn well that it could stir up alot of **** and that the heads could be re-tested by another shop.. But, Tony came clean on it and said he did it and that he would love for us to send them to another shop and have them flowed again. So thats what I am going to do. As soon as the head gets back from him I'm gonna send it somewhere else and have it done again. Then we will see what the "real deal" is for once. Jason @ TSP straight up lied to me and I could care less how much money YOU or anyone else has spent with them cause that doesnt mean jack **** to me. These heads were suppose to be the "new and improved" heads done in-house on their machine and obviously they werent from what Jason is claming... now what?
Tony did not come to me or approach me about this at all.. I contacted him a few weeks back about flowing these heads for me. I was informed by Brent @ TEA about some shady stuff that was going on with TSP/PRC so it got me thinking and I really just wanted to see what the heads would do. I honestly expected some numbers in the 300/225 range but I guess I was wrong. Tony did not want to be involved in anything like this.. He wanted to test the heads, give me my results, and be done with it. These heads were being pimped pretty hard so we were both interested in what they had to offer since we both knew about the shady crap that was involved with them. He told me not to bring his name up on this board or any board for that matter and thats exactly what I did. But, then everyone started speculating and there you have it. I don't think Tony would lie or put up "tainted" numbers when he knows good and damn well that it could stir up alot of **** and that the heads could be re-tested by another shop.. But, Tony came clean on it and said he did it and that he would love for us to send them to another shop and have them flowed again. So thats what I am going to do. As soon as the head gets back from him I'm gonna send it somewhere else and have it done again. Then we will see what the "real deal" is for once. Jason @ TSP straight up lied to me and I could care less how much money YOU or anyone else has spent with them cause that doesnt mean jack **** to me. These heads were suppose to be the "new and improved" heads done in-house on their machine and obviously they werent from what Jason is claming... now what?
07-17-2005, 03:55 AM
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Shady? What exactly are you calling shady? You were told by a competing business that something was shady, and its taken over your life. PRC is owned by the same owners of TSP, not by TSP. Do you think Jason would knowingly send out subpar components in a fairly fresh cylinder head business that he started himself? There is nothing to hide or nothing to be "shady" about... Before our CNC machine was wired in we had to contract out CNC work, which is what many shops do, not everyone has the ability to purchase a CNC machine. I believe up to 10 sets were done by TEA and about 10 more were done by another source (forgot name) but they were very similiar if not the same port. This does not worry me as the LS1 porting research IMO has been exhausted---most of the tweaks have already been found in the factory heads, so the actual CNC porting should be the same as the next head done in a perfect world.
Not sure on the timeline as I do not even work in sales, but as soon as our machine was up and running we had heads ready to cut. We did a few sets for FFHP which turned out perfect per Scott's feedback, and then did a run of about 40 5.3L heads. Each one of those were identical to the next. What makes your heads flow less than the other probably 70ish that were done in the same timeframe? We personally don't see the heads after the valvejob and blending are done as there is a strict timeline of when the customers want to have the heads they purchased. Terry finishes everything after the CNC work is complete and he's done hundreds of heads in the same manner, then they are shipped from AL.
So if the heads flow good straight off our CNC machine, and I'm assuming the bowl blending and valvejob add to that..... Where did your flow numbers go? The other 70ish heads showed no sign of losses, and of the ones I've installed, and the many others in the field we've had the results we've expected.
Not sure on the timeline as I do not even work in sales, but as soon as our machine was up and running we had heads ready to cut. We did a few sets for FFHP which turned out perfect per Scott's feedback, and then did a run of about 40 5.3L heads. Each one of those were identical to the next. What makes your heads flow less than the other probably 70ish that were done in the same timeframe? We personally don't see the heads after the valvejob and blending are done as there is a strict timeline of when the customers want to have the heads they purchased. Terry finishes everything after the CNC work is complete and he's done hundreds of heads in the same manner, then they are shipped from AL.
So if the heads flow good straight off our CNC machine, and I'm assuming the bowl blending and valvejob add to that..... Where did your flow numbers go? The other 70ish heads showed no sign of losses, and of the ones I've installed, and the many others in the field we've had the results we've expected.
07-17-2005, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by -Joseph-
Shady? What exactly are you calling shady? You were told by a competing business that something was shady, and its taken over your life. PRC is owned by the same owners of TSP, not by TSP. Do you think Jason would knowingly send out subpar components in a fairly fresh cylinder head business that he started himself? There is nothing to hide or nothing to be "shady" about... Before our CNC machine was wired in we had to contract out CNC work, which is what many shops do, not everyone has the ability to purchase a CNC machine. I believe up to 10 sets were done by TEA and about 10 more were done by another source (forgot name) but they were very similiar if not the same port. This does not worry me as the LS1 porting research IMO has been exhausted---most of the tweaks have already been found in the factory heads, so the actual CNC porting should be the same as the next head done in a perfect world.
Not sure on the timeline as I do not even work in sales, but as soon as our machine was up and running we had heads ready to cut. We did a few sets for FFHP which turned out perfect per Scott's feedback, and then did a run of about 40 5.3L heads. Each one of those were identical to the next. What makes your heads flow less than the other probably 70ish that were done in the same timeframe? We personally don't see the heads after the valvejob and blending are done as there is a strict timeline of when the customers want to have the heads they purchased. Terry finishes everything after the CNC work is complete and he's done hundreds of heads in the same manner, then they are shipped from AL.
So if the heads flow good straight off our CNC machine, and I'm assuming the bowl blending and valvejob add to that..... Where did your flow numbers go? The other 70ish heads showed no sign of losses, and of the ones I've installed, and the many others in the field we've had the results we've expected.
Not sure on the timeline as I do not even work in sales, but as soon as our machine was up and running we had heads ready to cut. We did a few sets for FFHP which turned out perfect per Scott's feedback, and then did a run of about 40 5.3L heads. Each one of those were identical to the next. What makes your heads flow less than the other probably 70ish that were done in the same timeframe? We personally don't see the heads after the valvejob and blending are done as there is a strict timeline of when the customers want to have the heads they purchased. Terry finishes everything after the CNC work is complete and he's done hundreds of heads in the same manner, then they are shipped from AL.
So if the heads flow good straight off our CNC machine, and I'm assuming the bowl blending and valvejob add to that..... Where did your flow numbers go? The other 70ish heads showed no sign of losses, and of the ones I've installed, and the many others in the field we've had the results we've expected.
I am the one that came up with the "shady" bit.. Had nothing to do with anyone else or your competitor.. I thought something seemed fishy so I had them tested. Nothing more, Nothing less. Personally, I think its "shady" when a company has other people doing their work for them and dont tell the public. Sure it happens alot, but I still dont like it. I knew about all of this stuff ALONG time ago and when I found out I talked to Jason about it personally. I dont know how many times I have to freaking explain this **** to you guys. Jason assured me that the heads I was getting were done "in-house" on PRC's machine and that they were better than all the other sets because of the valve job that was done. He never even told me that Terry was doing them or anything like that. But, as usual.. I found that out on my own. But NOW, Jason is saying that these heads were an "older set" from the guys in Arkansas cause there were still a few sets left over when PRC got their own machine up and running. So, obviously I was lied to. Once again.. IF these heads that I have turn out to be a good set of heads once they are tested by someone else then I will gladly let everyone know what they did and how good they really are.. But, until then.. I don't want them and I'm gonna continue to let people know about these results. Yeah, this set could be a "bad batch" but thats not my fault and its not my fault that I sent them and had them checked. People say, "well AFR shouldnt have tested them cause thats competition blah blah blah!" Well, TSP has had plenty of AFR heads to test and plenty of TEA's heads to test so whats the big damn deal here??
I am not talking about the flow #'s being shady.. so lets get that cleared up! I'm talking about the business that is being conducted seems shady and it seems that ALOT of other people feel the same way. I know a few other things about TSP that I'm not even gonna talk about because its pointless now.
07-17-2005, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 1QuickT-A
Lets clear this up real quick.. And I've already said this once..
Question for Tony: Why did you flow the heads? What was in it for you? AFRs are great heads, we have them on one of our cars. Bought them from one your distributors, TSP!! More reason to ask why you would do this since TSP was one of your own distributors? Your heads should stand on their own, no need to get involved with all of this. You should have stayed above all this and had this customer send his heads to someone else.
07-17-2005, 09:27 AM
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On a funny side note, I bet TEA is hoping these heads aren't one of the ten that came from their shop. lol 
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07-17-2005, 11:55 AM
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LSxGuy widda 9sec Mustang
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Yes that is correct and what we tell all customers looking for that information, the CNC work is all done "in-house", finish work and assembly is done in AL. I don't see anything shady with that, its actually a simple process that everyone else has been fine with until you. Is it shady that Lunati has crankshafts forged in China and then sent to another company for machine work, before being sent to Lunati for finish work and reselling..... If you buy a Lunati crank, I bet no one will tell you that, although why would it matter? Same thing goes on for Eagle, Comp., everyone basically. This is called operating a business. If something was shady, don't you think our local customers would notice and not someone 1500 miles away that has never seen our facilities? 
Currently our process is the best way to get 5.3L heads done. If you have a better way, please enlighten me and share the info.
All this aside..........The only real issue I even see is that your heads flowed much less than they should, for some reason its being blown out of proportion into something its not. Jason has already expressed that he will replace the heads/do whatever it takes to get you into a set that flows up to par. This is normal procedure for any company, replace the broken item and move forward.
Little background on parts we have taken back: We had two customers in one month with the same cam express that they had low numbers, other shops had done the install. We offered to replace the cams with identical units. One changed the cam and had exactly the same results, the other picked up power for some reason. We cam-doctored the cams to find out what was wrong and found nothing. So we installed these "bad" camshafts in local cars (at a reduced price), and guess what, they did exactly what they were supposed to! In fact one of them is in a car that runs 10.90's. Why would that be?
Currently our process is the best way to get 5.3L heads done. If you have a better way, please enlighten me and share the info.
All this aside..........The only real issue I even see is that your heads flowed much less than they should, for some reason its being blown out of proportion into something its not. Jason has already expressed that he will replace the heads/do whatever it takes to get you into a set that flows up to par. This is normal procedure for any company, replace the broken item and move forward.
Little background on parts we have taken back: We had two customers in one month with the same cam express that they had low numbers, other shops had done the install. We offered to replace the cams with identical units. One changed the cam and had exactly the same results, the other picked up power for some reason. We cam-doctored the cams to find out what was wrong and found nothing. So we installed these "bad" camshafts in local cars (at a reduced price), and guess what, they did exactly what they were supposed to! In fact one of them is in a car that runs 10.90's. Why would that be?
07-17-2005, 02:01 PM
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You sure it wasnt one of those "misground" 231/237 camshafts that came out to be a 233/239 cause the guy fucked up and ground them wrong? But you guys still sold them to everyone as a 233/239 that DIDNT DO JACK **** and put out numbers no better than the 231/237 cause it was basically the same ****** cam... And then come out with the new and improved "233/239 REVISION 2" camshaft and tell everyone that the other one was outdated and this NEW one made more torque blah blah blah than the first cam did. Yeah... THATS SHADY!
And this is what I have to say about the other ****...
When you have heads done at TEA, then swap to some other guy in Arkansas, then swap to doing them yourself and you dont tell anyone until the subject comes up.. NOBODY knew anything about that **** until Brent @ TEA told me about it and then Jason came clean on it when I called him.. Thats kinda shady to me. And when you are having a company like TEA doing the heads and you have guys "pimping" the **** out of their "PRC/TEA" heads that actually did put out good numbers then you sell some heads to ME that are junk what do you expect me to think??
When I bought these heads I was basing my choice on the numbers that Gomer and few others had put down with the PRC heads.. Then I was told that PRC didnt even have a hand in the port work on those heads.. Then I was told that I would get a set JUST LIKE those except with a better valve job but now that they end up flowing SHITTY numbers I am being told that I now have a set of the old heads from some dipshit in Arkansas.. And you guys keep saying that these heads have NOTHING to do with Patriot... Seems to me that they have EVERYTHING to do with Patriot when Terry is doing the work to them and the place in Texas that did some work for Patriot is also doing work on the PRC stuff. Its got Patriot written all over it in a wierd kinda way.. Even if the heads were good, its still stupid crap in my opinion and I'm entitled to that..
And this is what I have to say about the other ****...
When you have heads done at TEA, then swap to some other guy in Arkansas, then swap to doing them yourself and you dont tell anyone until the subject comes up.. NOBODY knew anything about that **** until Brent @ TEA told me about it and then Jason came clean on it when I called him.. Thats kinda shady to me. And when you are having a company like TEA doing the heads and you have guys "pimping" the **** out of their "PRC/TEA" heads that actually did put out good numbers then you sell some heads to ME that are junk what do you expect me to think??
When I bought these heads I was basing my choice on the numbers that Gomer and few others had put down with the PRC heads.. Then I was told that PRC didnt even have a hand in the port work on those heads.. Then I was told that I would get a set JUST LIKE those except with a better valve job but now that they end up flowing SHITTY numbers I am being told that I now have a set of the old heads from some dipshit in Arkansas.. And you guys keep saying that these heads have NOTHING to do with Patriot... Seems to me that they have EVERYTHING to do with Patriot when Terry is doing the work to them and the place in Texas that did some work for Patriot is also doing work on the PRC stuff. Its got Patriot written all over it in a wierd kinda way.. Even if the heads were good, its still stupid crap in my opinion and I'm entitled to that..
07-17-2005, 02:19 PM
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LSxGuy widda 9sec Mustang
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I'll have Jason or Trevor reply to this, as your twisting everything we say around to say what you want it to say. Its not really my place to get involved, I just wanted you let you know that your purchase is getting more than enough attention, and I'm sure Jason will get you what you paid/traded or bartered parts for. Have a nice weekend, I know I will. 
Last edited by -Joseph-; 07-17-2005 at 02:39 PM.
07-17-2005, 02:31 PM
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I'm not changing anything around... Just facts.. I did not start that other thread to bash anyone. Just to say "hey, these heads put out some low #'s and this needs attention"... I know that Jason is gonna make things right. There is no doubt in my mind that he isn't gonna help out. He's already said that and we have already talked about it and everything is fine.. So, just leave it alone.
07-17-2005, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by -Joseph-
and I'm sure Jason will get you what you paid/traded or bartered used parts for.
07-17-2005, 02:47 PM
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LSxGuy widda 9sec Mustang
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Your the one who took it 15 levels past what was necessary to get your heads corrected. I edited my post above and removed 'used', thats just what I heard. I can argue all day long, I actually enjoy it, but it don't matter if your getting what you want.
07-17-2005, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by 1QuickT-A
How did I take it 15 levels past what was necessary? All I did was post up with the numbers from the flow test?
07-17-2005, 03:33 PM
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Well, THATS YOU.. They are the ones that started talking it up NOT me. Everyone is jumping my *** for simply having my heads flow tested. Why is that such a problem? I'm just glad I didnt put them on the car cause theres no telling how much money and trouble I would have gone through trying to figure out what in the hell was wrong with my car!! I feel like I am being thrown under the bus just for testing a set of heads and posting the numbers?? I have said over and over that I think I just got a set of bad heads.. And that there are other PRC heads out there that did perform good. But, WHO DID THE WORK ON THOSE?? They dont know and they arent gonna say.. How can you talk **** to me when you haven't even installed your ****** PRC's yet? Might want to have those checked whenever you get them in just to be sure???
And I contacted Gomer cause I got the heads from him and talked it over with him right after I posted the original thread.. And I'm not running around to different threads. This section if for "Sponsor Feedback" so thats what I'm doing. The other forum is for LS1 Technical Info and thats what I posted.. so sue me!
And I contacted Gomer cause I got the heads from him and talked it over with him right after I posted the original thread.. And I'm not running around to different threads. This section if for "Sponsor Feedback" so thats what I'm doing. The other forum is for LS1 Technical Info and thats what I posted.. so sue me!
07-17-2005, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 1QuickT-A
How did I take it 15 levels past what was necessary? All I did was post up with the numbers from the flow test?
07-17-2005, 05:41 PM
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When did I EVER say that they refused to help me or fix this problem?? I have said the EXACT opposite so I think you should learn how to read..
So, Once again.. Let me say this one more time since I guess everyone keeps missing it in ALL of my other posts..
1) PRC has had some good sets of heads
2) Some PRC heads are showing good #'s
3) Jason has always been nice and treated me fairly in the past
4) Jason and I have already talked and everything is cool
5) Gomer and I have already talked and everything is cool there as well
6) I'm not pissed that the heads didn't perform well, I'm pissed because I was mislead
7) Its not my fault that I had these heads tested and checked out
8) I think everyone on this board should be informed of what goes on behind closed doors whether its labeled as "stirring up ****" or not
9) I don't really care what you think about me or what your opinion is because your not the one that is sittin here with junk heads that almost got installed on my car and I would have had NO idea if I hadn't had them checked out
10) I'm not mad but now I'm just defending myself since all of a sudden I'M the bad guy somehow. Which I find hard to believe since I'm the one that got pissed on and lied to..
If anyone has a problem then feel free to call me and I will fully explain everything to you over the phone.. 205-296-6474 Lets hear it??
So, Once again.. Let me say this one more time since I guess everyone keeps missing it in ALL of my other posts..
1) PRC has had some good sets of heads
2) Some PRC heads are showing good #'s
3) Jason has always been nice and treated me fairly in the past
4) Jason and I have already talked and everything is cool
5) Gomer and I have already talked and everything is cool there as well
6) I'm not pissed that the heads didn't perform well, I'm pissed because I was mislead
7) Its not my fault that I had these heads tested and checked out
8) I think everyone on this board should be informed of what goes on behind closed doors whether its labeled as "stirring up ****" or not
9) I don't really care what you think about me or what your opinion is because your not the one that is sittin here with junk heads that almost got installed on my car and I would have had NO idea if I hadn't had them checked out
10) I'm not mad but now I'm just defending myself since all of a sudden I'M the bad guy somehow. Which I find hard to believe since I'm the one that got pissed on and lied to..
If anyone has a problem then feel free to call me and I will fully explain everything to you over the phone.. 205-296-6474 Lets hear it??
07-17-2005, 07:39 PM
#20
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Get your **** straight!Patriot never had anyone in texas perform any work for them.PRC heads have nothing in common to Patriot.thats the last time I will say this.The only common thing is that I used to work there.FWIW,I didn't perform the work in question.The reason That I am performing the work,is to now is to offer a better set of heads that is quality controlled to the way PRC needs them to be.