I've read all of the posts on this topic in both LS1 forums, and as a warranty auditor for a major automobile manufacturer, I feel compelled to comment.

As a consumer I am very much in favor of consumer rights, but many of you have very unreasonable expectations. Step back from this matter and view it from a legal perspective. First, MMS clearly stated that nitrous engines have no warranty. The customer isn't disputing that fact, he is disputing that he didn't "spray" the engine. Legally, it doesn't make a difference if the engine was sprayed, or not. The customer executed the contract when he paid for, and took delivery of the engine, knowing that no warranty or guarantee was expressed or implied. In my opinion, the legal question is very clear, and MMS is not liable.

Regarding the customer satisfaction issue, the customer should have pursued this with Mike Morgan personally. If the customer wasn't satisfied with the response from his salesperson, he should have escalated it to management. As a general rule, never accept the answer "no" from someone who doesn't have the authority to tell you "yes". It is unreasonable to expect Mike Morgan to be financially responsible for repairs that he wasn't apprised of until after completion.

 

Wrong. I am disputing the fact that there was a warranty. This is what was promised to me:

> "B",
>
> Ok, do you need a deposit? I want to order the
> engine. I'd also like the engine built for nitrous
> and I'll worry about the smog (can I slap cats on it
> long enough to pass inspection and put the race
> pipes
> back on without a huge amount of work?). I've been
> reading about Agostino's 750HP 422. Will the
> aggressor handle a 150 shot of nitrous RELIABLY? If
> so, can you suggest a setup?
>
> Thanks!
> Chris

--- "B" @ MMS" <b@mmsracing.com> wrote:
> Yes, the motor will handle up to about a 200 shot as
> long as you have enough
> fuel which you will most likely need 46 pond
> injectors with a 255Lph fuel
> pump to handle that kind of horsepower. We will need
> a deposit of 50% to
> start. ARE's 422 that you are talking about is a
> solid roller cam motor
> which is not smog legal or very streetable, and is
> much more expensive of a
> set up. With a motor like that if you drive it on
> the street will not live
> to long because the solid roller cam and lifters are
> very hard on springs
> and valves. Our motor with a cam that will pass smog
> and a 150 shot will
> make around 600-625 at the wheels and about 450-470
> naturally aspirated.
> Give me a call if you want to get going on this a
> get in line for a motor.
>
> Thanks
>
>"B"
> Morgan Motorsports, Inc
> http://www.mmsracing.com
> How fast do you want to go (818)342-5693 ext13

That statement is my warranty. What was delivered was an engine that ran for 400 miles and dropped multiple sleeves; a problem that MMSs engines are noted for. I expected an engine that would at least RUN. The law provides for that. Based on your statement any manufacturer can build any pile of parts to ship "without warranty" and expect not to be held liable. Nice. Where exactly do you work anyway?

 

Cat, sorry about this whole ordeal. It sounds like quite a mess. Not so sure if you should waste your money on a lawyer, though... If it ever gets to trial, here is what the defense attorney is going to ask you:
1) Did this engine come with a warranty?
2) How long does the standard warranty last that came with it?
3) What date did you purchase the engine?
4) What date did you notice there was a problem?
5) How many months passed between the purchase and when you noticed this problem?
It really sucks that this happened, but if the warranty is based on a date then the number of miles you put on it don't really have any bearing on your claim. Whenever I buy something, I always make sure the check it before the warranty ends, even if I'm not really going to use it for months. I'm assuming that all this damage happened after it was installed and the cracks and dropped sleeves couldn't be seen before the engine went in?

 

Actually, there is/was NO WARRANTY INFORMATION given to me at all. That includes my invoices. Furthur, I based my decision on B's recommendation that the engine would be reliable even with nitrous.

I'm not going to aruge this here but my lawyer feels that case falls under the following consumer protection laws.

And as far as throwing away the money on a lawyer, it's already spent.

IMPLIED WARRANTIES

Although warranties are not required by law, there is another type of
warranty that is. It is called an "implied" warranty. Implied
warranties are created by state law, and all states have them. Almost
every purchase you make is covered by an implied warranty. The most
common type of implied warranty is called a "warranty of
merchantability." This means that the seller promises the product
will do what it is supposed to do. For example, a car will run, a
toaster will toast.

Another type of implied warranty is the "warranty of fitness for a
particular purpose." This applies when you buy a product on the
seller's advice that it is suitable for a particular use. For
example, a seller who suggests that you buy a certain sleeping bag
for zero-degree weather warrants that the sleeping bag will be
suitable for zero degrees.

If your purchase does not come with a written warranty, it is still
covered by implied warranties unless the product is marked "as is,"
or the seller otherwise indicates in writing that no warranty is
given. Several states, including Kansas, Maine, Maryland,
Massachusetts, Mississippi, Vermont, West Virginia, and the District
of Columbia, do not permit "as is" sales.

If problems arise that are not covered by the written warranty, you
should investigate the protection given by your implied warranty.

Implied warranty coverage can last as long as four years, although
the length of the coverage varies from state to state. A lawyer or a
state consumer protection office can provide more information about
implied warranty coverage in your state.

 

That stuff's good to know

 

Well, I don't kow why you can not send the block and all the left over parts to mike for him to look at. I also do not know why he would not do that. I am not saying that he wont or you wont. What I am saying is I bet if you sent it to him, he will look at it, and this matter would be resolved with both parties happy. If i was on the jury I would lokk bad at the fact that in reality you have not sent the block to Mike for inspection. I would also look bad on the fact that Mike has not asked for you to send it to him so he can see if he can help you. I think before you go any farther with into litigation, you should contact Mike and let him know the block and left over related parts are being sent to him for possible warrenty. Also, if you had a profesional shop do all the work for you, I would send copies of all the work ordesrs and reciepts. That way he can see that your time line on when the engine was first started is true. I at first was very hard on Mike, and I still am looking down on him, but I am also starting to see fault on your part. Were I see that fault is now you have Mikes attention, give him a chance to make this right by you. If he doesn't then proseed with litigation. I am afraid if you do not give him this chance then you will not get the outcome you want. Also, if he does not except the opertunit to work with you then he will not have a good case either. So please, see if you can send the block to him for him to look at, and give him that chance.

 

Send back evidence? Muahahahahahh! It's a bit late for that.

I offered to send mike copies of my reciepts, he declined.

 

So there is no real documentation of a warranty? How could Mike not have that written up and signed? Poor business practice. Either way I think you guys need to just meet halfway. Mike claims his verbal warrantly was 1 year. It was after 1 year that the motor had problems even though it was just cranked. Neither one of you have a leg to stand on in court. That email definately does not mean anything. I don't see how the hell any email does when you can spoof/forge all the info as you wish.

I just think you guys need to find some middle ground and Mike needs to write up some policies. Just my $.02 in case you care.

 

Yes, it sucks to be the buyer in your case, but I firmly aggree with the two above quotes. I work at a subsea oil/gas equipment manufacturing plant and deal with warranty issues and contracts all day long. At a jury trial, you will be judged by your peers, not other car enthusiasts. They will most likely read the black and white, not the underlying issues in between the lines.

I also do not feel that MMS should be responsible for your repair labor. Mike Morgan should have gotten the opportunity to make that call, some shop owners will pay inspection labor for their products if it is proven that their product failed under warranty conditions. But, it would be based on his prior approval to proceed, not after the fact.

I believe you are telling the truth completely, but I also think that you are in a very strange situation and are trying to manipulate warranty issues. You purchased the engine as a "nitrous engine" and knew full well that nitrous engines are not covered under any warranty. You based that purchase on trust, not a warranty. Without MMS doing the installation, tuning, etc.. on this engine, there are far too many variables to consider when damage occurs.

In a situation like this, being several months since your warranty expired, I'd only think MMS might replace the block under inspection for this special case. As for installation/repair labor, thats something we all pretty much bite and accept when it comes to performance cars.

Tony

 

I would think you might get back the cost of the block (or receive a replacement block) but nothing else.

 

Can you guys rename this thread? I opened it up looking for some block comparison info but couldn't find any.

 

We have debating on whether to keep this thread open or not in the admin section.

I'm going to work on our guidelines for threads like this.

I totally recall iateyourcat posting about building this motor a while ago. I"m sorry to see folks not figuring out problems together.

I feel like we are being spoon fed details and we might not have the whole story. I'm not sure what the point of this thread is, is it to slam MMS? If you looking for love in this thread (iateyourcat) I think you are getting mixed responses.

Since the motor was out of the warranty period you would been in a situation where you were looking for MMS to work with you on a mutually agreeable solution.

I'm sure that MMS mentioned to you several times verbally that you had a one-year engine warranty if you did not use nitrous.

I'm not seeing major value in this thread but I don't want the last word... And fimal comments from either side before this is locked?

 

HAHAHA

 

McRat, if I bought a $17,000 blender, all custom-built and I worked with the company on building the blender to my specifications and got their recommendations and blessings on my plan and it blew up after three uses, no misuse on my part I WOULD EXPECT A F***ING REFUND!

THIS IS NOT A BLENDER!

 

Micah, so when does the warranty end?

Now there might be some extenuating circumstances, I don't have a feel for a lot of details.

But if a guy builds a big motor, and then waits a year for a transmission, the engine warranty expires and that's the way it is, unless there was an agreement with the engine company.

 

I agree with you PSJ, technically MMS probably shouldn't have to pay for anything. But since when is business about having a legal position against a customer who only wanted what he payed for? I'm genuinely upset about this because MMS is the only complete service f-body shop anywhere near my area, but if they can't take responsibility for bad product, that's a problem for me.

Bottom line IMO? MMS sold this guy a bad product and did not rectify the situation with the customer.

 

I also think it's funny that MMS is offering to fix the block, now that they know he already had someone else build a new one. I have to disagree with those who say he didn't give MMS a chance to fix it. He called and spoke to Al, and was told that he was SOL, if Al is not representing the company properly then that's a company problem, not a customer problem. (On a side note, Al's attitude is the reason I stopped doing business with MMS, he once flamed TR for "stealing" the MMS224 cam design and calling it their own ).

 

The warranty was over, people are forgetting that. It seems as Mike@MMS would have rectified the problem IF he had the chance. Which he didn't.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Up until the revised darton sleeves were released wasn't this a typical problem with this process?

 

PSJ,
I can understand you wanting to leave the thread open. I don't have anything to add at this point. I am in a wait and see pattern. I've corresponded with the customer and it was made clear the only option was his refund for a replacement block and all his labor. He's also notified me that he is involving an attorney. That being the case I've been advised that it is not appropriate to discuss the matter on a public forum any further.

MicahJam, I'm not really sure who you are but you've been passionately clear about MMS for sometime. All this over a comment about the 224 cam. Thank you for making that clear. I don't ever recall Al posting anything about it. We've had people in the past tell us they bought an MMS 224 cam from somewhere than MMS. This was before we wholesaled them out. We also no longer use Comp to grind our MMS cams. This has reduced some of the confusion with all the 224 cams out there. We also offer WD pricing to vendors that matches or bests their cost. If what Al said came off as a "flame", then I'm sorry you felt that way. He is very passionate about his job and is very loyal to MMS and I don't know the circumstances of how it came up.

I am sorry that it's come to this, but I am trying to put MMS in a different direction. I can only control our conduct today and try to rectify issues from the past. I also know that everyone won't be 100% satisfied. I can live with that if I feel I've done what I feel is right. Time will determine if that is right for today's consumer. I've been doing this for nearly six years and I plan to do it for many more. My passion for cars have waxed and waned and in conjunction, so has MMS. But in the end it is only my business, there is much more in my life. If my business ever becomes a detriment to my life and my families well being then I will move on.

 

I see your point but I can't eat the labor on an engine that I never even got to break in and, being built in 2001, those blocks are known for dropping sleeves.