Afr heads for lt1
We are about to launch our new 235 cc 23' Eliminator head and I will put this head up against anything in a non raised runner 23' bolt on piece. It has a 1206 entrance just like our 227 and has all the same valve and stud locations. The new 235 will flow in the mid 330's at .700 lift (310 as early as .500!!) and flow over 340 CFM if you have enough valvetrain to vault the valve over .800.
You guys should really re-consider offering the 235 in a LT!!!
Josh from ProCharger.
I just had a customer in Australia pull off a set of AFR 210's and install the new TFS Super 23 230's and picked up 50 hp at the crank N/A, he was hoping for 20-30 hp gain. It's a SBC not a LT1, but it was a 4.030 bore engine. He has a engine/dyno shop and it's his personal engine. Of course the Super 23's cost a good bit more then the 210's so there are some very good heads out there, but they usually cost more too.
I just had a customer in Australia pull off a set of AFR 210's and install the new TFS Super 23 230's and picked up 50 hp at the crank N/A, he was hoping for 20-30 hp gain. It's a SBC not a LT1, but it was a 4.030 bore engine. He has a engine/dyno shop and it's his personal engine. Of course the Super 23's cost a good bit more then the 210's so there are some very good heads out there, but they usually cost more too.
Been awhile Brian....almost miss our friendly bantoring.
Would like more info on the swap. Was it our Eliminator 210's or our older heads? Were they as delivered from AFR, compression the same....how big was the engine and what type of RPM....perhaps it liked the additional volume. You know how these "swaps" go....there is usually always a little more to the story.
I would be more than happy to provide your customer with our new 235's to try when we put the finishing touches on them next month....have him contact me and we can work out the details.
BTW, for those wondering, cost of our new 235's will be very close to our current 227's and we will at some point have an LT version of that head but it may take 6-12 months or so (diiferent casting is the reason and we have to go thru our current LT supply).
Thanks,
Tony
I keep bugging Jason about them (ever since he told me about them), but he hasn't caved yet! 
Cant wait to bolt my afr 210s on, a few years back we put a set of GTP ported afr 210s and lt4 mani (required for the 210s) the car put down 433rwhp, with a bone stock 60k shortblock, with stock injectors,fuel pump, ect,ect. Im planning on 15psi or so and those Afrs are gonna shine
I'm sure it was the old 210 heads, not the new ones, as delivered, destroked engine so it was under 350 cu in, don't know about the RPM, my guess would be 7500-8000. I'll contact him, he's in Melborne.
It is hard to compare a $1300 set of heads to a $2200 set of heads, but I thought I would throw it out there just so people know.
It is hard to compare a $1300 set of heads to a $2200 set of heads, but I thought I would throw it out there just so people know.
Uuuuuuhh....OK
Been awhile Brian....almost miss our friendly bantoring.
Would like more info on the swap. Was it our Eliminator 210's or our older heads? Were they as delivered from AFR, compression the same....how big was the engine and what type of RPM....perhaps it liked the additional volume. You know how these "swaps" go....there is usually always a little more to the story.
I would be more than happy to provide your customer with our new 235's to try when we put the finishing touches on them next month....have him contact me and we can work out the details.
BTW, for those wondering, cost of our new 235's will be very close to our current 227's and we will at some point have an LT version of that head but it may take 6-12 months or so (diiferent casting is the reason and we have to go thru our current LT supply).
Thanks,
Tony
Been awhile Brian....almost miss our friendly bantoring.
Would like more info on the swap. Was it our Eliminator 210's or our older heads? Were they as delivered from AFR, compression the same....how big was the engine and what type of RPM....perhaps it liked the additional volume. You know how these "swaps" go....there is usually always a little more to the story.
I would be more than happy to provide your customer with our new 235's to try when we put the finishing touches on them next month....have him contact me and we can work out the details.
BTW, for those wondering, cost of our new 235's will be very close to our current 227's and we will at some point have an LT version of that head but it may take 6-12 months or so (diiferent casting is the reason and we have to go thru our current LT supply).
Thanks,
Tony
I agree....
But flow numbers coupled with runner volume gives you a very good idea of whats going on.
A head that flows big air thru a small port is going to accelerate that race car like nobody's business....It's going to sixty foot and get the car moving much more effectively (the key to a low ET) and with similar (or even greater) peak numbers, make the big power upstairs to run a strong back half to also couple that low 60 foot time with a strong trap speed.
If were discussing road course racing a small efficient port is even more desirable...
-Tony
But flow numbers coupled with runner volume gives you a very good idea of whats going on.
A head that flows big air thru a small port is going to accelerate that race car like nobody's business....It's going to sixty foot and get the car moving much more effectively (the key to a low ET) and with similar (or even greater) peak numbers, make the big power upstairs to run a strong back half to also couple that low 60 foot time with a strong trap speed.
If were discussing road course racing a small efficient port is even more desirable...
-Tony
Just to be clear I am in no way bashing your or AFR. I still remember that test you did with all of the popular LS1 heads out there.
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I did a little digging and I compared some info here that I thought might be of interest to a lot of people. This info is taken directly off of the AI website and the AFR website.
Here is a comparison between the AI stock ported 200cc versus an AFR 195 "street" and an AFR 195 "comp" head. Take special note of the price too > You have to factor in an additional $50 or so to have your stock heads shipped out to AI for porting.
Lift:..........AI 200cc Int.........AFR 195 St Int..........AFR 195 Comp Int
.200"............147.7......................137... .......................140
.300"............204.6......................196... .......................202
.400"............247.4......................243... .......................248
.500"............275.1......................274... .......................280
.600"............287.8............................ .........................300
price*......$1975+core+shipping.........$1769................$2449
..................*cam included!!***
ex.
.200"............115.9.......................110.. ........................115
.300"............153.0.......................158.. .........................165
.400"............178.8.......................190.. .........................200
.500"............190.2.......................207.. .........................217
.600"............196.2.......................211 (.550").................225
They are pretty close in the intake side with the AI 200cc slightly edging the "street" version of the AFR 195 but not the "comp" version. But the exhaust side is no comparison at all. I got the prices for the AFR's directly from an AFR authorized dealer. I simply googled an AFR part number and clicked the very first link that I saw.
Now here's AI's top dog! Their 215cc ported Trickflow casting! Let's see how it stacks up against an AFR 210cc "street" and "comp" head.
lift..............AI TFS 215cc..............AFR 210 Street................AFR 210 Comp
.200".................146.2....................... ...139................................147
.300".................206......................... ...199.................................206
.400".................253.3....................... ...249................................257
.500".................284.9....................... ...279................................290
.600".................300.4....................... ...295................................308
ex
lift
.200".................110.6....................... ...110................................120
.300".................148.6....................... ...158................................166
.400".................176.9....................... ...192................................214
.500".................195.9....................... ...210................................225
.600".................204.8....................... ...214................................235
price.................$2495....................... ...$1999............................$2574
Again, very similar to the first comparison, with a close group on the intake and a huge margin on the exhaust side. Make note that I am comparing a smaller AFR port here too
Now I'm gonna let you guys in on a little secret here.............None of the AFR dealers disclose their lowest prices, ever. What I mean is, they CAN sell you stuff cheaper, you simply have to ask them. It never hurts to ask. I just ordered a set of 227's for a song, I simply sent out a few emails to a few AFR dealers. The 227's require a few special parts (stud girdle) or shaft rockers (street use), but they flow ENORMOUS amounts of air. No ported stock head can touch them, it's not even close. I got the "street" version and I put a little comparison up including the price to the AI 215 TFS head.
lift...............AI TFS 215...........AFR 227 "street"
.200"................146.2...................... 148
.300".................206........................ 210
.400"................253.3...................... 259
.500"................284.9...................... 292
.600"................300.4...................... 305
lift ex.
.200"................110.6...................... 114
.300"................148.6...................... 162
.400"................176.9...................... 204
.500"................195.9...................... 220
.600"................204.8...................... 229
price...............$2495....................... $1864 (exactly what I paid)
Gee, what can I do with an extra $631.00????? Where's this double the price stuff?
Here is a comparison between the AI stock ported 200cc versus an AFR 195 "street" and an AFR 195 "comp" head. Take special note of the price too
> You have to factor in an additional $50 or so to have your stock heads shipped out to AI for porting.Lift:..........AI 200cc Int.........AFR 195 St Int..........AFR 195 Comp Int
.200"............147.7......................137... .......................140
.300"............204.6......................196... .......................202
.400"............247.4......................243... .......................248
.500"............275.1......................274... .......................280
.600"............287.8............................ .........................300
price*......$1975+core+shipping.........$1769................$2449
..................*cam included!!***
ex.
.200"............115.9.......................110.. ........................115
.300"............153.0.......................158.. .........................165
.400"............178.8.......................190.. .........................200
.500"............190.2.......................207.. .........................217
.600"............196.2.......................211 (.550").................225
They are pretty close in the intake side with the AI 200cc slightly edging the "street" version of the AFR 195 but not the "comp" version. But the exhaust side is no comparison at all. I got the prices for the AFR's directly from an AFR authorized dealer. I simply googled an AFR part number and clicked the very first link that I saw.
Now here's AI's top dog! Their 215cc ported Trickflow casting! Let's see how it stacks up against an AFR 210cc "street" and "comp" head.
lift..............AI TFS 215cc..............AFR 210 Street................AFR 210 Comp
.200".................146.2....................... ...139................................147
.300".................206......................... ...199.................................206
.400".................253.3....................... ...249................................257
.500".................284.9....................... ...279................................290
.600".................300.4....................... ...295................................308
ex
lift
.200".................110.6....................... ...110................................120
.300".................148.6....................... ...158................................166
.400".................176.9....................... ...192................................214
.500".................195.9....................... ...210................................225
.600".................204.8....................... ...214................................235
price.................$2495....................... ...$1999............................$2574
Again, very similar to the first comparison, with a close group on the intake and a huge margin on the exhaust side. Make note that I am comparing a smaller AFR port here too
Now I'm gonna let you guys in on a little secret here.............None of the AFR dealers disclose their lowest prices, ever. What I mean is, they CAN sell you stuff cheaper, you simply have to ask them. It never hurts to ask. I just ordered a set of 227's for a song, I simply sent out a few emails to a few AFR dealers. The 227's require a few special parts (stud girdle) or shaft rockers (street use), but they flow ENORMOUS amounts of air. No ported stock head can touch them, it's not even close. I got the "street" version and I put a little comparison up including the price to the AI 215 TFS head.
lift...............AI TFS 215...........AFR 227 "street"
.200"................146.2...................... 148
.300".................206........................ 210
.400"................253.3...................... 259
.500"................284.9...................... 292
.600"................300.4...................... 305
lift ex.
.200"................110.6...................... 114
.300"................148.6...................... 162
.400"................176.9...................... 204
.500"................195.9...................... 220
.600"................204.8...................... 229
price...............$2495....................... $1864 (exactly what I paid)
Gee, what can I do with an extra $631.00????? Where's this double the price stuff?
Do you think the exhaust side is different by a "huge margin" because of something called a pipe?
Did you really compare the Ai TFS 215s to AFR 227s and list a $600 price diffence with a caveot that they "require special parts" but not factor that into the cost?
I can't even imagine the countless arguments you left open in regards to different benches, specific test parameters, average across different benches or other factual problems.
I am not delving into personal preference, only that you created a comparison with HUGE bias present. That whole post is unreliable and garbage as far as comparison.
Terrible...
Last edited by Tireburnin; Jan 29, 2009 at 01:10 PM.
You spent so much time creating a post that has flawed comparisons.
Do you think the exhaust side is different by a "huge margin" because of something called a pipe?
Did you really compare the Ai TFS 215s to AFR 227s and list a $600 price diffence with a caveot that they "require special parts" but not factor that into the cost?
I can't even imagine the countless arguments you left open in regards to different benches, specific test parameters, average across different benches or other factual problems.
I am not delving into personal preference, only that you created a comparison with HUGE bias present. That whole post is unreliable and garbage as far as comparison.
Terrible...
Do you think the exhaust side is different by a "huge margin" because of something called a pipe?
Did you really compare the Ai TFS 215s to AFR 227s and list a $600 price diffence with a caveot that they "require special parts" but not factor that into the cost?
I can't even imagine the countless arguments you left open in regards to different benches, specific test parameters, average across different benches or other factual problems.
I am not delving into personal preference, only that you created a comparison with HUGE bias present. That whole post is unreliable and garbage as far as comparison.
Terrible...
10 Second Club
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,630
Likes: 28
You spent so much time creating a post that has flawed comparisons.
Do you think the exhaust side is different by a "huge margin" because of something called a pipe?
Did you really compare the Ai TFS 215s to AFR 227s and list a $600 price diffence with a caveot that they "require special parts" but not factor that into the cost?
I can't even imagine the countless arguments you left open in regards to different benches, specific test parameters, average across different benches or other factual problems.
I am not delving into personal preference, only that you created a comparison with HUGE bias present. That whole post is unreliable and garbage as far as comparison.
Terrible...
Do you think the exhaust side is different by a "huge margin" because of something called a pipe?
Did you really compare the Ai TFS 215s to AFR 227s and list a $600 price diffence with a caveot that they "require special parts" but not factor that into the cost?
I can't even imagine the countless arguments you left open in regards to different benches, specific test parameters, average across different benches or other factual problems.
I am not delving into personal preference, only that you created a comparison with HUGE bias present. That whole post is unreliable and garbage as far as comparison.
Terrible...
What CAN we compare? Can we compare rwhp numbers then? Um...nope, not according to you. You will bitch about different dyno operator, different day, different rear end in the car,different drivetrain loss, yada yada.
Can we compare track times? Um...nope, again, not according to you. You will bitch about car weight, gears in the rear, type of converter, type of tires, yada, yada.
The only way to realisitcally do it would be to swap heads on a motor and do back to back dyno runs. But then you'll find a flaw in that too, you'll say the barometric pressure was slightly different between runs, or that the second set of heads were torqued while the block was still warm.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 2
From: windsor, ont. canada - Home of the fastest LT1 6spd.
wow Tony blessed us with his presence! funny thing a few years ago he wouldn't give me the time of day when i was trying root cause a problem which left me with a couple of lifted ringlands. typical customer service....
not that you give a flyin' hoot about your customers, i learned that the hard way. however i figured it out no thanks to you.
for that reason alone i will NEVER buy another set of AFR's, only because there are heads out there that work just as well if not better. besides back then, there really was no other choice for a cylinder head that i could spray 300+ and sleep well at night.
customer service has really gone to the
'er, and you wonder why places don't survive. i really don't care if it costs a few bucks more. i will spend the extra few bucks, even if i have to wait to do it right.
Last edited by taner; Jan 29, 2009 at 09:45 PM.
Oh give me a ******* break. $200 for a stud girdle.
What CAN we compare? Can we compare rwhp numbers then? Um...nope, not according to you. You will bitch about different dyno operator, different day, different rear end in the car,different drivetrain loss, yada yada.
Can we compare track times? Um...nope, again, not according to you. You will bitch about car weight, gears in the rear, type of converter, type of tires, yada, yada.
The only way to realisitcally do it would be to swap heads on a motor and do back to back dyno runs. But then you'll find a flaw in that too, you'll say the barometric pressure was slightly different between runs, or that the second set of heads were torqued while the block was still warm.
What CAN we compare? Can we compare rwhp numbers then? Um...nope, not according to you. You will bitch about different dyno operator, different day, different rear end in the car,different drivetrain loss, yada yada.
Can we compare track times? Um...nope, again, not according to you. You will bitch about car weight, gears in the rear, type of converter, type of tires, yada, yada.
The only way to realisitcally do it would be to swap heads on a motor and do back to back dyno runs. But then you'll find a flaw in that too, you'll say the barometric pressure was slightly different between runs, or that the second set of heads were torqued while the block was still warm.
. And how exactly is it an A-B comparison to compare heads that were flowed on a 4.030 bore with no pipe vs heads that were flowed on a 4.125" bore with a 1 7/8 pipe? Last time I checked an LT1 can not be bored out to a 4.125", so flowing them on such a bore is done to inflate the flow #'s and boost sales to the average person who doesn't know any better. Hopefully at least the chambers were designed for an LT1 bore size. Also if you design a head to put up big numbers at 28" on a flow bench you will be severely disappointed when you head to the track.
10 Second Club
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,630
Likes: 28
And how exactly is it an A-B comparison to compare heads that were flowed on a 4.030 bore with no pipe vs heads that were flowed on a 4.125" bore with a 1 7/8 pipe? Last time I checked an LT1 can not be bored out to a 4.125", so flowing them on such a bore is done to inflate the flow #'s and boost sales to the average person who doesn't know any better. Hopefully at least the chambers were designed for an LT1 bore size.
Do me a favor and google "AFR eliminator heads". Go read EVERY hit that you get that is on an open talk forum. Try to find something negative about them. The only thing you'll find is that some people complain about the price a little. My intent of this post way back a few pages ago, was to enlighten people that you can INDEED get these heads cheaper than what you see on the internet sites. You just have to ask. There must be some strict rules when you are an AFR dealer about advertising prices. I got the 227's for $1864 assembled. I think that is an amazing deal.
A pipe can inflate numbers by 10-15cfm easy. According to AFR's own website, a pipe will inflate numbers by 4-7%. The bore difference might be 10-15cfm also. But I can't find a back to back comparison of bore effect on flow.
Here are some real world numbers, but still not as low as a 4.030 bore like an LT head should be advertised with. http://www.camaros.net/forums/archiv.../t-109620.html
You have to understand that you posted a comparison that is ignorant of the reality of the market place. I am happy that you are excited by your purchase. You need to be happy with it, not me or any other board member. The problem is you don't quite understand the comparison you made between Ai products (presumably because you have a beef with one of thier custmers) and AFR products.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both products, but the comparison you made is biased by your blind prejudice. It is not a good comparison.
Nothing against AFR, you just need to realize that there is more to the equation than you can see or at least more than you posted.
Here are some real world numbers, but still not as low as a 4.030 bore like an LT head should be advertised with. http://www.camaros.net/forums/archiv.../t-109620.html
You have to understand that you posted a comparison that is ignorant of the reality of the market place. I am happy that you are excited by your purchase. You need to be happy with it, not me or any other board member. The problem is you don't quite understand the comparison you made between Ai products (presumably because you have a beef with one of thier custmers) and AFR products.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both products, but the comparison you made is biased by your blind prejudice. It is not a good comparison.
Nothing against AFR, you just need to realize that there is more to the equation than you can see or at least more than you posted.
Last edited by Tireburnin; Jan 29, 2009 at 09:16 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,630
Likes: 28
A pipe can inflate numbers by 10-15cfm easy. According to AFR's own website, a pipe will inflate numbers by 4-7%. The bore difference might be 10-15cfm also. But I can't find a back to back comparison of bore effect on flow.
Here are some real world numbers, but still not as low as a 4.030 bore like an LT head should be advertised with. http://www.camaros.net/forums/archiv.../t-109620.html
You have to understand that you posted a comparison that is ignorant of the reality of the market place. I am happy that you are excited by your purchase. You need to be happy with it, not me or any other board member. The problem is you don't quite understand the comparison you made between Ai products (presumably because you have a beef with one of thier custmers) and AFR products.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both products, but the comparison you made is biased by your blind prejudice. It is not a good comparison.
Nothing against AFR, you just need to realize that there is more to the equation than you can see or at least more than you posted.
Here are some real world numbers, but still not as low as a 4.030 bore like an LT head should be advertised with. http://www.camaros.net/forums/archiv.../t-109620.html
You have to understand that you posted a comparison that is ignorant of the reality of the market place. I am happy that you are excited by your purchase. You need to be happy with it, not me or any other board member. The problem is you don't quite understand the comparison you made between Ai products (presumably because you have a beef with one of thier custmers) and AFR products.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both products, but the comparison you made is biased by your blind prejudice. It is not a good comparison.
Nothing against AFR, you just need to realize that there is more to the equation than you can see or at least more than you posted.
I didn't make my purchase based solely on flow numbers. I have read AT LEAST 3 different magazine articles about these Eliminator heads all in comparison shootout formats, and it wins every time. Even the big-block heads win, going against larger port heads. I googled the "AFR Eliminator" head and got many hits for different car forums, a chevelle forum, a vette forum, a racing forum, etc, etc. EVERY single person that dynoed these heads was shocked at the power they produced. I don't think I could have spent my money better elsewhere, $1864, couldn't be TOUCHED by anything else out there.
Fifteen years ago a company could have manufactured a truly great product and it would have taken time to catch on. Fifteen years ago a company could have manufactured a really crappy product and unfortunately it would have also taken time to catch on (more people would have gotten hosed before it was common knowledge the product didnt perform or live up to its claims). One of the great benefits of the Internet (and a simple Google search) is that you have loads of information at your fingertips....a good product is easy to spot and appreciate just as easily as a bad product is now quickly dismissed.
Some people say AFR has a good marketing department (we dont even have a marketing department....LOL). When your product works as well as ours you really dont need one, especially in the age we live in today. Both good (and bad) news travels fast. Hell....I dont buy a new electric razor without checking into it online first....LOL
The best tool you have at your disposal is the Internet....and while you cant take everything you read about as gospel (especially on the message boards), trends are certainly very easy to spot.
I would also like to address Taner's post...
I'm not sure exactly how I disappointed you by "not giving you the time of day" as you posted a bit earlier, and Im not even sure how your problem related to our heads, but I will say that I usually go out of my way to help people, not to mention spend alot of time doing so weekends and evenings on my time....not on the AFR clock. That said, maybe I was having a bad day when we spoke....wrestling with the flowbench trying to push thru another airflow barrier.....I dont know, but Im certainly human, I make mistakes, and I apologize if you feel I could have handled your situation better. One thing I know is I work hard to build just the opposite reputation and I feel AFR (the company) and Tony Mamo (personally) have a pretty solid track record for good customer service. Like I said I may have been "off" the day we spoke but I dont recall the situation to comment on it. If you can consider letting bygones be bygones I would love to make it up to someday if given the chance.
Just make sure you reference this thread and I will certainly remember....PM or call me if you like so we dont muddy up this thread with a bunch of drama.
Thanks,
Tony
(661)257-8124 Ext. 109
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; Jan 30, 2009 at 09:13 PM.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,299
Likes: 2
From: windsor, ont. canada - Home of the fastest LT1 6spd.
thanks for your politically correct response, but no thanks. i will keep this polite, any drama here was not brought on by me. just stating some facts along with my .02. have a nice day sir.
the pm copied and pasted was sent 12-4-2004.... oh i guess you had a bad day when i sent you this as well, because you did NOT respond. i even provided my cell # (which i did not provide in this post)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
TITLE: you couldn't give me the time of day.....
Tony,
you may or may not remember, i spoke to you late May this year when I called to get some feedback on addressing the root cause of my motor failure. I did not point fingers, nor did I ask for AFR to rebuild my motor, or money for that matter. you would NOT allow me to get a word in on the phone, and actually I don't know what your tech told you before he handed the phone over, but you were on the offensive before I even had a chance to go over what I found when I pulled my motor apart. IF you recall I tried to explain to you what I found, which was about 7 of my valve seals has rose up the valve stem(s), up the guide. ALL I WANTED to discuss was what might have caused this, I was trying to troubleshoot, not lay BLAME! and you stone walled me, simply saying you were to busy to discuss this, and good bye! i spent how much on a set of AFR 227's and you couldn't give me 2 minutes of your time! I look forward to changing my heads to something else! anything but AFR's! tough choice when it comes to a 23 degree head but oh well. at the very least I point out all the decency that you showed me when i called to ask, to everyone who asks about the cylinder heads! all i wanted to understand is what might have caused this, and if there were any measures I could take to prevent this, etc.
AFR is merely one stroke of then pen away from ARE. customer service was just as lame, i feel sorry for you if that is how you treat your customers! needless to say you provided a very bad image of AFR in my mind.
why did i wait to send you a pm? fact is i never noticed you post on ls1 tech. and I definitely didn't want to waste my time trying to call you back to discuss this! and unless there is more than one Tony at your facility, that takes calls supervises the tech guys, then I apologize for directing this message to you in particular. but my impression remains unchanged.
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sorry for the hijack... oh and AFR's in the right hands flow pretty good, as do ported TFS heads!
i am thru with the diversions in this thread. yeah its 4.5 years ago, i was still waiting for a response is all. you had a bad day when i called, then you didn't respond to my pm, what am i stupid or something, call you to discuss......whatever.
and yes they were valve seals i ordered directly from AFR in case there was any question, and yes my builder installed them, i trust his expertise. he builds 632 BBC's for a living. as well i am not stating that it was even a component failure from the manufacturer.
the pm copied and pasted was sent 12-4-2004.... oh i guess you had a bad day when i sent you this as well, because you did NOT respond. i even provided my cell # (which i did not provide in this post)
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TITLE: you couldn't give me the time of day.....
Tony,
you may or may not remember, i spoke to you late May this year when I called to get some feedback on addressing the root cause of my motor failure. I did not point fingers, nor did I ask for AFR to rebuild my motor, or money for that matter. you would NOT allow me to get a word in on the phone, and actually I don't know what your tech told you before he handed the phone over, but you were on the offensive before I even had a chance to go over what I found when I pulled my motor apart. IF you recall I tried to explain to you what I found, which was about 7 of my valve seals has rose up the valve stem(s), up the guide. ALL I WANTED to discuss was what might have caused this, I was trying to troubleshoot, not lay BLAME! and you stone walled me, simply saying you were to busy to discuss this, and good bye! i spent how much on a set of AFR 227's and you couldn't give me 2 minutes of your time! I look forward to changing my heads to something else! anything but AFR's! tough choice when it comes to a 23 degree head but oh well. at the very least I point out all the decency that you showed me when i called to ask, to everyone who asks about the cylinder heads! all i wanted to understand is what might have caused this, and if there were any measures I could take to prevent this, etc.
AFR is merely one stroke of then pen away from ARE. customer service was just as lame, i feel sorry for you if that is how you treat your customers! needless to say you provided a very bad image of AFR in my mind.
why did i wait to send you a pm? fact is i never noticed you post on ls1 tech. and I definitely didn't want to waste my time trying to call you back to discuss this! and unless there is more than one Tony at your facility, that takes calls supervises the tech guys, then I apologize for directing this message to you in particular. but my impression remains unchanged.
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sorry for the hijack... oh and AFR's in the right hands flow pretty good, as do ported TFS heads!
i am thru with the diversions in this thread. yeah its 4.5 years ago, i was still waiting for a response is all. you had a bad day when i called, then you didn't respond to my pm, what am i stupid or something, call you to discuss......whatever.
and yes they were valve seals i ordered directly from AFR in case there was any question, and yes my builder installed them, i trust his expertise. he builds 632 BBC's for a living. as well i am not stating that it was even a component failure from the manufacturer.
Last edited by taner; Jan 31, 2009 at 03:16 AM.
Taner,
I dont recall getting (or not getting) your PM, and honestly 4+ years ago is too long ago to remember the phone call as well. Have you ever not received a PM or had trouble sending one due to technical difficulties with the site? I know I have as well as others....A phone call is always the best way to re-connect to assure communication. Perhaps I did get your PM which was six months after the fact as you stated and I thought a response seemed fruitless at the time based on a conversation I remembered then. I get bombarded with PM's from time to time and honestly its hard to keep up. Back in 04' when you reached out I was easily getting 10+ a day because we had recently launched the new Gen III product. I have no idea....once again....too long ago to comment on what actually happened.
Bottom line is my previous response, while you may feel politically correct, is 100% accurate.
When dealing with countless hundreds and thousands of people over time you are bound to have situations go south even though you have the best of intentions. IMO this is one of those situations.
Sorry things didnt go smoother for us back in 04'
-Tony
I dont recall getting (or not getting) your PM, and honestly 4+ years ago is too long ago to remember the phone call as well. Have you ever not received a PM or had trouble sending one due to technical difficulties with the site? I know I have as well as others....A phone call is always the best way to re-connect to assure communication. Perhaps I did get your PM which was six months after the fact as you stated and I thought a response seemed fruitless at the time based on a conversation I remembered then. I get bombarded with PM's from time to time and honestly its hard to keep up. Back in 04' when you reached out I was easily getting 10+ a day because we had recently launched the new Gen III product. I have no idea....once again....too long ago to comment on what actually happened.
Bottom line is my previous response, while you may feel politically correct, is 100% accurate.
When dealing with countless hundreds and thousands of people over time you are bound to have situations go south even though you have the best of intentions. IMO this is one of those situations.
Sorry things didnt go smoother for us back in 04'
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; Jan 31, 2009 at 12:03 PM.