Puck

iTrader: (17)

My builder, and pretty much every LT1 builder would disagree with you. Converted splayed 4 bolt mains are in fact stronger then factory 4-bolts, period. I apoligize for being a "moron" since I don't build 700hp LT1s every day. This isn't my first dance with the LT1 platform though.

PS: I think its funny that the guy calling names and giving advise is running a cast crank and HVHP oil pump in his badass "540hp/520tq" 383. The 2 bolt mains will be the least of your worries, but you know that already don't you?

Hope that works out for you, I think you should spray a 250 shot of nitrous on top to really get the best out of it .

96capricemgr

iTrader: (1)

IMO people do not take the time to really understand the hows and whys of things.

My understanding is some engines like some of the Furd stuff really benefits from a girdle. Other folks blindly assume the same will apply to all engines and here you go.

Seems to me slotting bolt holes on a girdle would be about like slotting boltholes on a boltin subframe connector. Will allow movement and defeat the purpose.

95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

Puck, all of your 'drivel' means what? NOTHING!

This particular motor is for my WIFES car. It is for HER '95 Z28 convertible. Done with some 'common sense', but still has more than $8500 worth in the engine compartment alone, and only having a T56 and 10-bolt as the only 'stock' items left on the car. Doesn't matter if I drive the car as a daily driver more than she does, it would be selfish of me to claim BOTH f-bodies as 'mine'...

Are you actually arrogant enough to think that this is my ONLY car? Or the ONLY one I ever built??? Just because a built a high-compression NA 383 with torque in mind for a daily driver has nothing to do with anything else I am involved in.

Maybe you should do some searches on my name here and lookup the basis of my name, the '95 TA - The Beast... It is over 900hp (789rwhp) on blower alone and 93 octane reformulated gas (what we have here), and have not been able to hookup even on the dyno with any shot of nitrous to get a valid number (it has a full progressive programmable kit)... And yeah, the ENTIRE car is built far more than just about ANYTHING on here. And done as a 'true' street-car not a drag car in disguise. So, yeah, it has a full $10k leather and suede interior, $35k worth of stereo equipment and more tricks than a 007 James Bond car. It is also done at a level of fit-finish that is rarely seen on any f-body. Oh, yeah, did I mention I did EVERYTHING on the car outside of the upholstery? That means designing the cam, porting the heads, full assembly and clearencing by me, a rotating assembly that can withstand 8000rpm if I choose, etc... Oh, and with 315 Nitto drag radials it doesn't hook up AT ALL and blows the tires off the entire length of the track... Not that a track number matters much to me, as I built it for ME to enjoy and a track number doesn't even figure into the equation for that. If I get bored with nothing to do later this year (which hasn't been the case in the past 7 years) I may put some slicks on it and run a number for the hell of it...

But, for now, I am plenty busy with at least 3-5 projects going on for other people, let alone 1-2 of my own at any given time, so 'free-time' being available is nonexistent. Not to mention I have 4 kids all under the age of 12 which have taken up more and more of my 'free' or 'not free' time as it were.

If you notice I don't post regularly here due to the sheer lack of available time, as I am actually out accomplishing everything I am talking about on here. If it weren't for an accident keeping me on the couch most of the day I wouldn't even be posting as much today.

The whole purpose of this post was to show a fairly cheap 'insurance measure' for those putting together a motor on a budget. A $400-500 4-bolt conversion is not a 'budget' item, but a $75-125 main stud girdle is.

Sorry if your engine builders just like taking peoples money without having any knowledge of what they are working with, but it has been known since the LT1s came out that the blocks are not suited for 4-bolt splayed converisons due to the weak webbing. I actually bought my car brand new back in '95, having been 'there' since the LT1 came out in '92, so I actually have a point of reference. Anyone that wants to tout a splayed 4-bolt for a LT1 is only looking at it from a monetary perpective as you can charge more for a splayed conversion.

Also, if you want the 'ultimate' LT1, then do a straight 4-bolt main conversion on not only the middle 3 mains, but also with custom front and rear mains, then add in a main stud girdle that ties the mains to the pan rail. You would be able to apply enough power to split the entire block before that bottom end would have issues... Cost prohibitive, and definitly overkill...

95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

And you have no idea of 'clamping force'... The holes in the mains themselves are not a 'press-fit', thus there is room for them to move. The clamping force of the bolt/stud holds the cap to the block. Same thing applies to the elongation of the bolt holes on the rear main of the stud girdle, with the benefit there of having much more material in regards to cap/block contact, as well as it being the thrust bearing point for these motors keeps it registered fore-aft if it were to even move.

The reason it is applicable for small block Fords is due to the extremely weak webbing of those blocks. There were spec'd for stock HP levels, and that was it. Above those levels the blocks were just not designed or intended otbe used, thus the webbing itself doesn't have the strength once power is applied.

All a main stud girdle does is provides a solid clamp point for the top of the caps, very similar to what the block does to the other end. That helps in ALL cases. It is no different then going with a 4-bolt conversion, as you are adding extra clamping to the middle three mains to keep them from 'walking' or 'fretting' in thier registers. This accomplishes the same exact thing in just a different way. That is why a 4-bolt straight conversion and a main stud girdle is the STRONGEST solution. Probably not necessary for what people are doing with LT1s, as one or the other does what is needed.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

I'm almost speechless, I really am . I wish I had that much money to waste, I'm broke right now! For 8.5k though I am not impressed at ALL with that build. I know you didn't ask, but I feel bad now so let me help you out a bit before you make more mistakes

- More compression: 11.6 is NOT high for an LT1, stop thinking in FI rules
- Switch to standard volume/pressure oil pump: Less risk of breaking the PLASTIC drive tab, stripping gears, sucking pan dry, etc. You are using the stock pan as well???? Good luck!!
- Forged crank: aftermarket cast cranks are often WEAKER then the stock crank which is good to ~650hp. I would rather do a 355 with stock crank and put the extra cash in the heads then spend the extra on a 383 aftermarket cast crank.
- Have the heads hand ported. You don't say any specifics besides "CNC'd", and running out of the box CNC heads is a huge mistake and ported stockers will outperform most of them.
-Get a proper LTX stud girdle if you want to run one. Smooth move slotting the bolt holes(?).

...or you can continue to throw more money at it and maybe it will go faster or at least look pretty eventually.

In my defense since you question my parts, my engine will come out to the same or slightly more cash for a MUCH stronger and more reliable piece. Not to mention quite a bit more powerful! . 8.5K for a hodgepodge of cast and stock parts is something I would keep a secret! Unlike you though I don't brag about what I have (or had) in every one of my posts - the specifics of what I have doesn't matter, but I'd be happy to share. Maybe I should change MY screen name to "93 - The Beast"? . Please don't bash my sources, I only deal with reputable LTX/LSX smallblock specialists and tuners with great reputations, that don't play with computer programs or spend the day online hyping up their stuff, but actually BUILD fast cars.

Have fun with your 900hp James Bond car that is, and I quote, "built far more than just about ANYTHING on here". Sorry that all of us that post on the Tech are slow.

PS: Let me know if you need help choosing your gearing/tire combo too - I'm always glad to help a fellow LTX enthusiast!

This whole thread is useless .

WhiteThunderZ28

The Project that 95 TA - The Beast is working on is impressive as also his T/A. How do I know this cause I've seen them for myselfs and on a side note he is also helping me out as well with tuning and such on my LT1 Z28...

Now with the 4 bolt he has done ... The Stud Girdle IMO has more of a bite to more material than splayed... If I converted to a 4 bolt, the Stud Girdle is what I'd do.

95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

Again, Puck, you are an idiot... I didn't say the motor (long block) was $8500, I said everything in the engine compartment you dolt! And that is accounting for all parts, including those I had 'laying around' as well as parts off the previous motor.

And the heads are custom ported stock castings, one offs as well, you retard. Flow numbers and actual performance numbers are above anything else out there offered. Were done back in 1998/1999 by a company that decided it really didn't care to get into LT1s, but still did a max-effort couple of sets, which I have been lucky enough to own 2 sets of.

Also, who the hell uses a stock plastic retaining collar on a performance buildup. If you even choose to read my original thread I used a Melling 10552 +10% volume pump which INCLUDES a hardened COLLARED driveshaft. And as far as sucking the pan dry, doesn't happen if you know how much oil is kept at the top end of the motor, how much is remaining in the sump under various conditions to prevent windage and choose the quantity based upon the build.

Also, seeing as how this crank lasted behind a 750hp blower motor, it should have zero issues with a NA setup.

And, if you read any of my other posts, 11.6:1 CR IS high in regards to getting a bad tank of gas. You WILL ping with 11.6:1 if you get a tank of 87-octane. That is why the PCM has to be tuned properly, INCLUDING the low-octane tables to account for that kind of un-foreseen issue.

nasty96

we'll i don't claim to know everything about engines but i do like the fact that the girdle ties all the mains together.. and i know of a 2bolt block with a girdle is putting down 767rwhp @ 6900rpm's with alittle power adder has been holding up for over a year .. and 75$ is cheaper than just the 350$ alone for the 4 bolt mains without the machining..

meissenation

iTrader: (2)

Gotta love how something that was meant to be a contribution post with pics/info has turned into a dick swinging contest. (sarcasm)

Although the dick swinging was largely unnecessary, thanks for posting the pics and info in the first post... wish more people documented and posted info like this.

95 TA - The Beast

iTrader: (2)

Sorry about that, it wasn't my intention to turn as badly as it did, but I have no control over the stupidity that runs rampant on here...

One of the big things is how do you get people that don't have a clue, that spread misinformation, and don't use any common sense in trying to even rationalize what they are saying, to just, flat out, STOP!?!?

Btw, motor is in the car, going to actually finish it up and start it tomorrow...

Pics:

http://www.darklogic.net/CamaroZ28VertNewMotorInstall
http://www.darklogic.net/MotorInstallPart2

Just need to find a decent set of taller valve covers as the poly-locks touch the stock ones... And I REALLY don't like the Canton fabbed ones...

Puck

iTrader: (17)

Stop stroking your E-Ego, that only works on people who have not been around forums long enough to know better. You could be a great guy in real life, and may be awesome to hang out with, but in here your insults and "holier then thou" attitude make you come off as a dick, and the ridiculous things you say make you come off as an uninformed dick .

I truly feel bad for anyone who takes your word as gospel. There are a few people here who try to keep others from repeating the same LT1 mistakes over again, and give good(even if sometimes harsh) advice...only to get bashed by guys like you with no track record other then a mysterious dyno queen with no ETs. The sad part is that you seem to actually believe the crazy things you say, even when they go against over a decade of hard facts. Sorry to break it to you, but the real LT1 guys don't buy it.

It is no wonder why the actual fast cars hardly ever post . Maybe if you were not so quick to insult others yet slow to take suggestions you could contribute more to the forums.

Best of luck with your build, anxious to see some times with your self-proclaimed "better then everything out" ported stockers and ultra custom cam in that 383.

Apologies to those looking for valuable thread content, I'll stay out of this thread(and away from "the beast" in general). I'm not one to bicker, but I am sure that I'm just posting what many others are thinking anyway.

schwoch1

It seems like every time 95TA-the beast opens his mouth in a thread, it turns into a pissing contest!!!
Do you have proof of the splayed 4 bolt block being weaker theory, such as a block that has been sectioned in the main bearing area to show the differences in the main bearing webbing area and the differences in the cooling passages to back up your claim? I am curious to see the proof!
I am not taking sides here, but main bearing girdles have their place and so do splayed main caps. I know typically the Ford camp likes girdles and the Chevy camp doesn't, all a matter of opinion I guess.......
Just my .02!!!

Mike

97Z28SS

iTrader: (5)

I have a few questions, where did you buy the girdle from, do the mains need to be align honed or is any machine work require to the top of the caps or can the girdle just be installed?

chas010

iTrader: (3)

Not looking to debate this subject but here is my opinion, Im not sold on the idea for main girdles for sbc's. Do i think it will weaken the bottom end? no. so with that being said anything offering more support in addition to the original design cant be deemed bad, cost effective? maybe not, but thats debatable.
Sbc lower end failures (in my limited exposure) rarely are caused by lower end component failures/design, and more often seem to come from tune issues (detonation) or valvetrain failures (dropped valve or weak springs).
This is based upon what I have seen, and im not going to claim to be the end all be all on the subject. Failures that occur early in the engines lifecycle I blame more on poor assembly practices.

949C1undercoverzzZz

Man I had to creat an account just to get this **** out there cause whoever this little **** talker is in this thread pisses me TF off. Let me just say I'm installing a girdle on my boosted LT1 and yes it is a 2 bolt main and it's going to be studs and girdle. I am gonna mod my girdle a bit different tho. The oil pump cap end of the girdle I'm just going to cut those ears off cause I feel with no bridge on the girdle to support the middle arch of the cap is pointless plus I just don't feel like doing all the mods to the oil pump. For the dumb little **** running his mouth and probably don't work on his own car and probably ain't got money to pay a professional to do it here is some knowledge for you. Fact #1 Japanese cars outlast American cars probably 150-200k miles more. Why? Because they are proud and engineer the living hell out of their engines. Honda for example. There is a guy on YouTube that shows about 3 decades of Honda engines that all have factory main cap girdles and are still used on most Honda engines today. A lot of Toyota and Nissan engine's are the same. Why do you think you see guys pushing north of 650hp on stock bottom end 2JZ engines and Nissan RB engines because girdles work. Fact#2 is the laws of physics. If your main caps are two bolt and your rpm is getting close to 7000 using studs gives you threads on both ends witch is stronger and has better hold down strength. Let me explain. A hex head bolt when under a lot of pressure will just brake off and the hold is no longer there. When you have threads it takes a lot more pressure to force a nut off threads hence the reason in most cases when you cross thread a nut your only option is to cut the dam thing off. If your engine was at 7000rpm and really hot the nut would most likely get hot and weld itself to the stud before it would come off. Now when you take a studded bottom end and add a girdle it does two things. The thick metal braces in the girdle that run across the arch of the cap gives extra support to the weak spot on that cap. The same concept is used on differential covers except they use a threaded adjustment pin to apply pressure on the center of the main caps on the diff thus giving the weak spot of the cap some support. The second thing a girdle does is connects all caps together especially the ones in the middle cause they are most vulnerable under heavy loads. The center of the engine and crankshaft is where the most flexing and stress will be so connecting all the caps to a steel reinforced girdle(frame) will give you the extra support needed. Think of a wood fence in 200mph wind with 4 concrete post or 10 concrete post what do you think will be stronger. Your stupid billet aftermarket 4 bolt main caps for the LT1 where the outer bolts go in at an angle are only available for the three middle caps. Would you look at that the same place a girdle adds support. Also let's keep in mind that the strength of a bolt if vertical not horizontal or at an angle. I'd be willing to bet under a big power application with those caps the first thing to be compromised would be that outer bolt sitting at an angle or even worse the section of the block you machined to accept that bolt. Most of your high performance race engines like NASCAR WWRC Indy formula 1 all use reinforced bottom end technology like a girdle except in those cases the girdle and main caps are one piece if you can understand what Im saying. So if I have a 2 bolt main block and I'm looking for high rpm and big power then I would feel pretty confident to say any real engine builder wouldn't be against a girdle and studs at the very least studs. I built my own engine and blue printed it myself but the guy who did the machine work told me to never take away what it was born with keep the caps it was born with cause that is how it was made and machined together. I hate to come on to this forum and go off like this but I hate this drama on forms these days. The forums used to be a place to get motivated and share ideas and information. I'm on the impala ss forum and was talking about doing a 2013 Chevy cruze electric rack and pinion on my 9c1 cop car and all I got was **** talking. So no matter who you are or what you are building do it for you and be proud of your hard work and most important never be afraid to get creative it's what keeps this industry alive. Stay strong stay fast live life.