I was actually just thinking the same thing. I was thinking that could be the only thing I might of messed up. and heres a bad thought, now what if I messed that up when the cam went in and instead of having #1TDC I had number #6TDC:eek: in that case referencing the mark on the hub 180deg wouldn''t help and I would have to pull the cam and re-do it correct?

btw everybody with the valves properly lashed there was 5threads showing on the head studs;)

I agree the cylinder to cylinder method is the only way imo, thats how we installed the comp 1.7's on the 383. Fwiw we went 1/2 turn on the lash.

edit* I have actually herd a few talk about that method(never actually adjusted them that way tho lol), but on a high performance application it's better to do it the right way(cylinder to cylinder method).These guys were regular mechanics that mainly work on stock vehicles. Your mechanic prolly has done so many sets of rockers on a *stock vehicle that he can prolly eyeball the lash by thread count yes. On your setup thats completely wrong. If he told you it was 4 threads and it was actually 5, a full turn off is quite a bit of difference is it not lol.

alright I've been thinking about it some more and the valve events were right with the mark on the hub I was using for TDC. ...so I'm thinking I might of mixed that up when I put the cam in and had #6 @ TDC and not #1. would that cause what I'm experiencing now making it run only when the valves are loose(basically retarding the timing right?). its the only possibility I can come up with but im certainly not a pro, what do you guys think? if I did indeed screw up on the cam install I have to do it over right? and can't just add 180degrees to the mark on the hub for TDC right? thanks for the responses!

more thinking.. I installed the cam the same way it came out with the dowel pin @ 3o'clock, installed the timing gear dot to dot and installed the opti with the big hole at 3o'clock and then put the crank hub on with the mark at 12o'clock. so its not as bad as I thought last night right? all I have to do is use the opposite side of the mark on the hub for reaching TDC right? I may have been confused on the valve events last night, hopefully I just have to re-do the lash..again but CORRECTLY this time:D and this time around I'll bring each cylinder to TDC I guess to deal with the overlap in the cam. is my thinking correct tho? tia

no thats not right either is it.. I'm confused. could it all be from the overlap, or is there some thing I'm not seeing?

i think your not at the correct position when adjusting them. keep trying

I forgot to mention the SES came on figuring it was just on due to how rough it was running. a buddy of mine is swinging by w/ a scan tool later today. this doesn't sound like it could be a problem with my crank position sensor tho does it? can they get messed up from hammering in the new seals on the TC cover? I don't see how I could be getting the TDC position wrong, I'm adjusting them right after overlap occurs, this is correct right? hopefully the problem is just from the overlap in the cam and from not doing it cylinder to cylinder, how ever a 226/234 112lsa cam is not that radical but could it be enough to create a no start situation after adjusting the valve lash the way I did?

Take out your #1 plug, put your finger over the hole (Not in it) crank in short burst until you feel the pressure blow past your finger. This is the compression stroke that you need to adjust to. See how far off you are then you are that far off on all cylinders. Did you prime the new lifters?

Best way I've found almost exact TDC is to pull the #1 plug, stick an oversized straw (McDonalds straw works well) into the plug hole and hand crank using a long socket wrench on the crank bolt until piston is close to TDC on the compression stroke and then start tugging on the straw and turn crank accordingly until the most resistance is felt. BAM- TDC... :)

EOIC method is far more accurate though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPOaAsuzhsE

How are you finding zero lash? Seen a LOT of mistakes made on that.


Far as the threads showing thing that would be affected by the rocker choice, the guideplate presense/thickness, the polylock height, the stud lenght, the stud diameter. I assume you changed ALL of that from stock.

Your mechanic buddies plan might work on some engines, not going to work this modded though.

I wish someone would have posted that video when I was trying to adjust mine a couple years ago. lol

I re-used the stock lifters and submerged them in oil before re-installing.

I'll have to try that method, I just eyeballed the valve events like that guy in the vid to find TDC, I'll use the EOIC method next time too.
I pulled the PR's up and down while tightening the nut making sure the socket wasn't touching the rocker and stopped as soon as there was no play left.
I had to cut costs when doing this, especially after paying a shop $400 to replace the rear main when it was really the intake mani gasket. So I skimped on the valve train figuring it was the easiest and best pieces to skimp on and to get to doing later, I would of like to of replaced everything but I had to make do w/ what I had to work with. I re-used the stock rockers, studs, and lifters, theres no guideplates or polylocks. I used the 918's I had on a set of spare heads I had laying around for porting that had been machined for a spring height of 1.84" and larger valves..and I do not know if these are stock length valves or not. AI sent me 7.150 PR's which they say were right for the cam, I was going to use the sharpie test to confirm they were the correct length but I'm having trouble reaching that point. I'm still planning on re-doing the lash the EOIC method later today and hoping that solves the problem unless it sounds like a have a different problem:confused: thanks again!

if you have not had the car tuned for the cam...it typically will not idle right, hunt/surge on RPM's.

you need to confirm you get the valves adjustment right, and confirm the cam is installed correctly

if using the stock rockers and nuts just tighten the nut down until there is no longer ANY up/down movement of the PR. Frankly this is harder to do with stock rocker nuts. Then turn nut 1/2 turn more past "zero" lash. FWIW I prefer the engine off do 1/2 of the respective valves, rotate engine 360 degrees and do the other 1/2.

you might want to pick up a $15 Haynes service book. It explains that process well.

I've got a haynes and followed the process to the T after failing trying to adjust them w/ the engine running, but I guess I actually didn't fail as bad as I did doing it with the engine off since it was at least running. I haven't gotten the computer re-tuned for the cam yet so I'm expecting a choppy idle, but choppy and running like crap are two different things. and this time around I'm going to bring each cylinder to TDC to adjust the valves instead of spinning it 360deg once in case its a problem from the overlap in the cam and I'll also try adding only a 1/2 turn instead of 3/4turn.

alright so this time I set the preload at 1/2turn instead of 3/4 and it fired up, idled around 500 running real rough(idle set at 1k) and then it started stalling and the gas pedal didn't help so I turned it off and backed off the valves a 1/8turn and tried starting it up and it just sputtered. so I backed off the valves another 1/8turn and it mostly just turns over with some sputters here and there. now I'm really confused cause it ran before when the valves were even looser. I'm still waiting on getting it scanned which won't be til tomorrow now. what could the possibly be causing this? I eyeballed the dowel on the cam @ 3o'clock but if I was slightly off would it cause symptoms like this? IDK what else to check out, hope this aint it for the season:(

ummm yeah! :poke:

You should of looked at the timing chain dots rather then looking at the dowel pin. You probably fucked something up upon cam install.

Unfortunately you're going to continue to run in circles on this unless you decide to use the method that's recommended by virtually all the cam companies and magazine tech articles.

It has nothing to do with finding TDC or counting rocker stud threads or removing a spark plug.

Now I know that guys have their own favorite way of adjust lifter PRELOAD (which is what you're doing) and because these guys have done it before and KNOW how to do it, to them it's easy. But to someone who hasn't done it before it's soooooooo confusing and error prone.

Wish I had a dollar for every thread I've read and responded to from guys going through exactly the same thing that your are. I know how frustrating it is and how much time and energy you're expending and STILL not getting the results you want.

Simple answer, do it the way the PROS do it and the way they recommend it be done. Otherwise you're probably going to continue to have these same, failed results.

One thing you must understand: THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF SETTING LIFTER PRELOAD IS TO MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT THE LIFTER YOU'RE ADJUSTING IS RIDING ON THE BASE CIRCLE OF THE CAMSHAFT LOBE. If it's not, any setting will NOT be correct.

The recommended method DOES NOT involve removing the #1 spark plug, watching the damper/hub or switching back and forth from one side of the engine to the other. It's simple, methodical and, just by paying attention to what you're doing, easy to do and remember.

Here it is; print it out and take it with you when next you bend over the engine:

First off let me say that there are several different ways to set lifter preload and all of them will work, but only if done correctly. The difference among the various methods is that one method is less error prone than the others.

The method shown in many manuals, like Chilton's, FSM etc., will have you moving from one side of the engine to the other trying to identify and set different lifters. Doing it that way makes it really easy to mis-identify one of them (you'll adjust an intake when you should have adjusted an exhaust, etc.) Only after the engine is started will you find that you'd made a mistake, then it becomes the task of finding out which one was set wrong.

The least error prone method is the one I'm writing about now.

Okay, here's the procedure:

The goal is to adjust the rocker arm adjusting nut enough so that it depresses the pushrod and thus the lifter plunger .030"/.040". Since it would be very difficult to actually measure that amount - requiring a dial indicator with a magnetic base, etc., turning the adjusting nut a certain amount will work just fine.

A word of Caution: If the engine has been run, before using this procedure, you'll need to loosen all the rocker nuts to relieve any pressure on the lifters and wait about a minute. This gives the lifter plungers time to travel back to the top of the lifter and not be depressed. If you fail to do this, you could have a false ZERO lash position which will effect the correct preload. More on ZERO lash will follow.

Most importantly, in order for the lifter preload to be set correctly, the lifter HAS TO BE on the base circle/heel of its camshaft lobe. This warranted repeating.

Since there's no way to actually SEE if the lifer is on the base circle/heel, you watch what its companion pushrod does in order to know. You watch the intake to set the exhaust, then watch the exhaust to set the intake.

May sound crazy but that's how it's done.

To begin, install all the pushrods in their respective lifter and set the rockers and adjusting nuts loosely in place. Then you'll need a way to turn the engine in it's normal direction of rotation. I use a ratchet, extension and socket on the damper nut. Having the spark plugs removed will make the engine much easier to turn too.

Start at the driver's side, front, very first rocker, which will be the #1 EXHAUST. We'll be setting that one first.

Grab the pushrod of next to it, which will be the #1 INTAKE pushrod, with your thumb and index finger so that the pushrod can be moved UP and DOWN.

Turn the engine while feeling what the #1 INTAKE pushrod is doing. That pushrod will, at some point, begin to move up (indicating the INTAKE valve is beginning to open) and then down.

Just before that pushrod is all the way back down, STOP turning the engine. The actual point that you STOP isn't all that critical, just as long as the pushrod has moved more than half way back down.

With the #1 INTAKE pushrod in that position, the #1 EXHAUST lifter will be on the base circle of its lobe.

Now, back to the INTAKE pushrod being almost all the way back down - Move your hand to the #1 EXHAUST pushrod and begin to gently move it up and down with your finger/thumb while at the same time begin to tighten the #1 EXHAUST adjusting nut.

When you reach the point that the #1 EXHAUST pushrod can no longer be moved up and down you've found what we call ZERO LASH.

It's now time to set the lifter PRELOAD on the #1 EXHAUST lifter. Most use 1/2 turn of PRELOAD, so turn the adjusting nut 1/2-3/4 turns more from ZERO LASH. This'll depress the lifter plunger and give you right at .030"/.040" of
PRELOAD.

1/2 turn equals the handle of wrench at, say, 12 o'clock, then turn the wrench until the handle points at 6 o'clock.

If you're using Poly-locks, once that 1/2-3/4 turns is made, tighten the Allen head poly lock with your Allen wrench. Make sure it's tight!

That one's done.

Now we move on to setting the #1 INTAKE.

To set the INTAKE, we grab the #1 EXHAUST pushrod (the one we just finished setting) with those same two little fingers - or you can just watch what the rocker is doing - either way works.

Begin, again, to turn the engine over manually while watching the #1 EXHAUST rocker or feeling its pushrod. AS SOON as you see the #1 EXHAUST rocker begin to open that valve or feel the #1 EXHAUST pushrod begin to move UP, STOP. You just found the point that the #1 INTAKE lifter is on its base circle of its lobe.

Now grab the #1 INTAKE pushrod with your index finger and thumb and begin to gently move that pushrod up and down as you slowly tighten its adjusting nut. When that pushrod can no longer be moved up or down you've just found ZERO LASH for the #1 INTAKE.

Again, tighten the adjusting nut an additional 1/2-3/4 turns to set the .030"/.040" preload and tighten the Allen head screw, TIGHT.

The #1 INTAKE and #1 EXHAUST are now set. Now move on to the very next pair, #3s and do the same thing. Continue working down the line to #5 then #7.

Once done, move to the other side of the engine and begin at the very first, front rocker/pushrod (#2) and repeat, going straight down the line. After you're finished with #8 EXHAUST, you're done.

If you just do one after the other, straight down the line, you won't skip any and each will be set properly.

JUST REMEMBER: The valve arrangement is EIIEEIIE with E=EXHAUST and I=INTAKE It's important to know which valve you're working on, an INTAKE or an EXHAUST.

After you've tried all the other competing methods and have finished pulling out your hair, do it this way and be done with it. Hope this helps.

Jake

West Point ROCKS!

???I don't think I understand. the timing gear is off when the cam goes in, what dots would've I been looking at? I put the cam in the same way it came out with the dowel pin at 3o'clock(which *could* of just barley been off) and then I put the timing chain back on and lined the dot's up on the sprockets top to bottom perfectly. is that not correct?

thanks for the reply I guess I'll do it again that way if you think the valve lash is still the culprit.

If you installed the cam with dot to dot (12 o'clock on the crank gear and 6 o'clock on the cam gear) and the dowel pin was at 3 o'clock, you did it RIGHT.

If BOTH dots were at the 12 o'clock position, then the dowel pin should have been at the 9 o'clock position.

As long as you selected the correct hole in the OPTI for the dowel pin, you're good to go. If the OPTI had been incorrectly installed the engine would either NOT run at all or BACK-FIRE like crazy; most likely the former.

Jake

West Point ROCKS!