Look at my pitted piston top (pic inside)
11-28-2010, 08:56 PM
#61
This is just becoming nothing more than a pissing match. He said She said. You didn't like the job he did Obviously. You were looking for a top of the line High end race build on these heads and he gave you what he is and you did not like it. Why didn't you just go with full on CNC'd head? Your wanting to put blame on him for trying to stretch a stock casting to the limit and not getting there? You have a hole in the port and the ports aren't big enough??? Welcome to the reality mass production sucks. I feel for you but it's a chance you take when you play. Stretching anything to the limit and failing to get there is not news. It's the chance you take to achieve your goal. No one has ever said it wouldn't cost to get there other wise everyone would be running around with fully built engines. What gets me is Why if you had it in your mind that you wanted all the ports and chambers to match perfect, why didn't you pay him to do that? In the end thats what (in this post anyway) seems to be pissing you off the most?
11-29-2010, 10:38 AM
#62
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when i said 'stumbled on" I eant "reading for first time". I have very little time for the forums and really do not click on threads about pitted pistons. I was told about the thread. not sure what the big deal is either way.
With everything you posted in the thread, why did you not mention that you had to port on the heads more? You cc'd the heads and had a variance, after measureing areas, you said you could not see a difference in the port and did not know where to remove the material from. Where did you end up taking it from if the ports if you could not find where they were different at?
I sent you 40 grit sandpaper rolls and they move material pretty quick. Figure how long it took to cc all chambers and all runners then try to get equal yourself . . . . you were expecting me to remove as much material as I did and then do all of this work also for $400?
You were not happy with the the cam, the shipping, my portwork or even AIs portwork before that . . . . . . . you should have done the work yourself (I guess you did but that did not work out well either, did it).
This is my last post on this as well. I am not really into pissing matches either. It did not turn into a pissing match until I posted in here. Before that, it was all the **** running one direction.
You shoudl scrape your pennies together and have reher morrison, Darrin Morgan, Larry Meaux, Dennis Wheet, etc do your work. They might be the only people to please you. Be prepared to pay 5-10 times what you paid me.
Largest to smallest, there was a 4.7 cc's apart between all 8 intake runners.
These were not Eliminator heads, these were old school AFR 210's. Did you cc them before AI ported them or after they ported them to know where they were when shipped to me? They did not start life as 210 cc's but I am sure you know differently.
You can obviously see the intake ports were much larger when you got them back.
I have a blank flow sheet that I use as a template and fill in a name and new flow #'s for each customer. Every customer will have a flowsheet that is starting as the same template. Do you honestly think I made a flow sheet in 2006 for a customer named "Arnold" with some AFR 210 LT1 heads and just kept it around for 4 years waiting for you to call? I explained this to you but I guess you know better on that also.
If you want a set of heads opened up that large and then start removing 4 cc;'s from ports with out knowing where to remove it, you can see how areas are gonna be thinner. easiest areas to reach and remove material are at the PR pinch (where you have two holes) and along strait wall between intake ports (you only have 1 small hole here).
I am not saying you ported them "badly" just that areas are thin when making ports this big and if you remove extra material you can be asking fro trouble.
I sent the mandrel and 10 40 grit rolls so you can get the intake runners "exactly the way you wanted them". I obviously do not send out porting tools with a set of heads and ship to Germany for free but I usually try to please even the unpleasable for a while.
Heads were strapped together with zip ties with cardboard between them when they left here. He sent pics of the heads being beat all to hell in customs and they have deep gouges from being pried apart maybe (????) or maybe being slid on concrete or a metal table with gouges in it (???). He thought they left like this and I assured him that they were not. I ahve no idea what all trauma the heads saw as they were at customs for a few days. I shipped them thru USPS so he could save some $$$ as he wished.
Lloyd
With everything you posted in the thread, why did you not mention that you had to port on the heads more? You cc'd the heads and had a variance, after measureing areas, you said you could not see a difference in the port and did not know where to remove the material from. Where did you end up taking it from if the ports if you could not find where they were different at?
I sent you 40 grit sandpaper rolls and they move material pretty quick. Figure how long it took to cc all chambers and all runners then try to get equal yourself . . . . you were expecting me to remove as much material as I did and then do all of this work also for $400?
You were not happy with the the cam, the shipping, my portwork or even AIs portwork before that . . . . . . . you should have done the work yourself (I guess you did but that did not work out well either, did it).
This is my last post on this as well. I am not really into pissing matches either. It did not turn into a pissing match until I posted in here. Before that, it was all the **** running one direction.
You shoudl scrape your pennies together and have reher morrison, Darrin Morgan, Larry Meaux, Dennis Wheet, etc do your work. They might be the only people to please you. Be prepared to pay 5-10 times what you paid me.
Largest to smallest, there was a 4.7 cc's apart between all 8 intake runners.
These were not Eliminator heads, these were old school AFR 210's. Did you cc them before AI ported them or after they ported them to know where they were when shipped to me? They did not start life as 210 cc's but I am sure you know differently.
You can obviously see the intake ports were much larger when you got them back.
I have a blank flow sheet that I use as a template and fill in a name and new flow #'s for each customer. Every customer will have a flowsheet that is starting as the same template. Do you honestly think I made a flow sheet in 2006 for a customer named "Arnold" with some AFR 210 LT1 heads and just kept it around for 4 years waiting for you to call? I explained this to you but I guess you know better on that also.
If you want a set of heads opened up that large and then start removing 4 cc;'s from ports with out knowing where to remove it, you can see how areas are gonna be thinner. easiest areas to reach and remove material are at the PR pinch (where you have two holes) and along strait wall between intake ports (you only have 1 small hole here).
I am not saying you ported them "badly" just that areas are thin when making ports this big and if you remove extra material you can be asking fro trouble.
I sent the mandrel and 10 40 grit rolls so you can get the intake runners "exactly the way you wanted them". I obviously do not send out porting tools with a set of heads and ship to Germany for free but I usually try to please even the unpleasable for a while.
Heads were strapped together with zip ties with cardboard between them when they left here. He sent pics of the heads being beat all to hell in customs and they have deep gouges from being pried apart maybe (????) or maybe being slid on concrete or a metal table with gouges in it (???). He thought they left like this and I assured him that they were not. I ahve no idea what all trauma the heads saw as they were at customs for a few days. I shipped them thru USPS so he could save some $$$ as he wished.
Lloyd
Last edited by NightTrain66; 11-29-2010 at 12:43 PM.
11-29-2010, 03:46 PM
#64
Lloyd didn't port them, and I got a good deal on my whole motor complete.
But, if I was building it from scratch, I really kept Lloyd in mind for my set of heads. He spec'd my current cam for me. Not exactly ideal for a blower, and could have been better, but it made pretty good power.
Lloyd is a good guy and tries to make everyone happy. Hand porting is an art that is quickly becoming lost, and everyone makes mistakes...hand porting is done by a HUMAN after all.
CNC porting is great...but variations in castings can cause a CNC mill to make the same mistakes.
Seems like people are AI lovers (thus LE haters) and vice versa. They both do good work. From both sides of the story, it's not hard to deduce that some other unsaid **** has gone on through the whole thing.
OP, get a new set of heads and be done with it. Having someone else port something that's already heavily ported is like buying someone else's project car and being pissed that it blew up 20,000 miles later.
Lloyd, keep up the good work. Although you may have to put this one in the "lose" column, you've got plenty of "wins".
11-29-2010, 05:32 PM
#65
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Last edited by SS RRR; 11-29-2010 at 06:13 PM.
11-29-2010, 10:19 PM
#69
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If indeed the OP is responsible for the giant hole which is pictured, it'd be interesting to know about the other holes from the other head that the OP claims to not have touched. LE doesn't do a very good job covering that issue.
Regardless these heads should've been sent back to LE to be checked out. If LE is so eager to please he should've paid for shipping. If the holes were discovered to have been from the OP then the OP pays shipping back along with repairs. LE should never accept heads that have been worked on before. I'm sure the promises were made regarding his magic touch and how much more flow could be generated, and it is money in his pocket, however there's a huge chance it will turn into an overflowing bucket of fail much like this debacle which doesn't do much for LE's already shaky QC reputation.
Aside from that, LINGENFELTER rules!
Regardless these heads should've been sent back to LE to be checked out. If LE is so eager to please he should've paid for shipping. If the holes were discovered to have been from the OP then the OP pays shipping back along with repairs. LE should never accept heads that have been worked on before. I'm sure the promises were made regarding his magic touch and how much more flow could be generated, and it is money in his pocket, however there's a huge chance it will turn into an overflowing bucket of fail much like this debacle which doesn't do much for LE's already shaky QC reputation.
Aside from that, LINGENFELTER rules!
11-29-2010, 11:14 PM
#71
Weird thread. I'm still trying to figure out why the OP sent a nice set of AFR heads to two different head porters in the first place, and also why this obsession to "heavily port" cylinder heads as much as possible (bragging rights??) Doesn't AFR make a 225 or 227 race head anymore? Or even some new big bad ***** 230 or 235cc head? Regardless, what ever happened to velocity? (vs max volume) I thought the real art was getting the most flow from the smallest runner possible...
I had a set of LT1 heads eons ago where the local head porter took too much and exposed a split opening through one of the intake runners. They sleeved that hole and it was good to go. Nice looking heads (beautiful 5-angle valve job), but after that experience I told myself next time I was going to spring for a fully CNC'd aftermarket set. When I finally got my AFR 210 Eliminators (competition #1101) I had my builder re&re to check everything and then they went on the motor. No mods or oil hole widening or sanding away the CNC bit grooves - NOTHING - those suckers were bolted up to the short block and the rest is history.
I don't mean to take away anything from the people who do wonders with hand porting - machine vs. hand porting can be debated on and on... I think for the vast majority of people looking to re-awaken their motors, sending their stock LT1 heads up for a port and valve job is a terrific decision and tremendous value. Look at how many people do it themselves effectively. Anyways, point I will make is to those people who often question the costs of buying an aftermarket set of heads vs. simply "porting" their stock heads. I agree that for most people having their stock castings worked over can be just what they are looking for or needing in terms of performance and budget. But I think once you add things like cost of core shipment to head porter, cost of new (assuming bigger) valves, seals, springs, retainers, locks, and some really advanced/to the limit port work, etc (we're talking a major overhaul with stock castings), it can quickly begin to approach the cost of a complete all in one aftermarket piece. You may end up paying a bit more for the aftermarket set, but I would argue you end up getting a more consistent product. And before anyone starts debating **** like CNC tool bit wear from one chamber to the next or imperfections in as cast versions, all I'm saying is there seems to be less guess work with some aftermarket pieces (but I'd never be stupid enough to think a CNC set of heads is PERFECT - like exactly 210cc for all 8 runners).
My AFR's came out of the box complete with specific springs for my application, assembled and ready to rock (we still had them re&re'd but they didn't require any work or extra parts). $2,400 plus shipping may seem like a lot but in my mind once you add up all the parts that went into those heads, plus the full comp CNC port job, I had a lot more piece of mind than I did following that old set of sleeved LT1 heads (which I must say the intake runners looked kind of wonky from one to the other). The other alternative I considered was shipping out a set of GM LT4 bare castings I had to a reputable shop for a full port & polish, valve seat work and fitment with 2.055"/1.06" aftermarket valves, valve job, and all seals, locks, and titanium retainers (and springs). I did the math. In the end peace of mind won over (this time). I sold my LT4 castings and never looked back. I could have saved $500 by getting the regular AFR (non-comp) 210 heads, and even a few hundred more just for bare castings if I knew how to work on heads myself. But then again I would have got stuck adding costs at a later date when those parts are needed. I left all my head guesswork to the manufacturer.
Perhaps one day I will take these heads off and send them to an expert like Lloyd, but it won't be to say: "shave off as much as you possibly can from these heads"... it will be to get him to look at heads, test them, and then ask him what he would recommend we do to the heads to improve my overall setup (along with the custom cam he will be grinding for me)
I had a set of LT1 heads eons ago where the local head porter took too much and exposed a split opening through one of the intake runners. They sleeved that hole and it was good to go. Nice looking heads (beautiful 5-angle valve job), but after that experience I told myself next time I was going to spring for a fully CNC'd aftermarket set. When I finally got my AFR 210 Eliminators (competition #1101) I had my builder re&re to check everything and then they went on the motor. No mods or oil hole widening or sanding away the CNC bit grooves - NOTHING - those suckers were bolted up to the short block and the rest is history.
I don't mean to take away anything from the people who do wonders with hand porting - machine vs. hand porting can be debated on and on... I think for the vast majority of people looking to re-awaken their motors, sending their stock LT1 heads up for a port and valve job is a terrific decision and tremendous value. Look at how many people do it themselves effectively. Anyways, point I will make is to those people who often question the costs of buying an aftermarket set of heads vs. simply "porting" their stock heads. I agree that for most people having their stock castings worked over can be just what they are looking for or needing in terms of performance and budget. But I think once you add things like cost of core shipment to head porter, cost of new (assuming bigger) valves, seals, springs, retainers, locks, and some really advanced/to the limit port work, etc (we're talking a major overhaul with stock castings), it can quickly begin to approach the cost of a complete all in one aftermarket piece. You may end up paying a bit more for the aftermarket set, but I would argue you end up getting a more consistent product. And before anyone starts debating **** like CNC tool bit wear from one chamber to the next or imperfections in as cast versions, all I'm saying is there seems to be less guess work with some aftermarket pieces (but I'd never be stupid enough to think a CNC set of heads is PERFECT - like exactly 210cc for all 8 runners).
My AFR's came out of the box complete with specific springs for my application, assembled and ready to rock (we still had them re&re'd but they didn't require any work or extra parts). $2,400 plus shipping may seem like a lot but in my mind once you add up all the parts that went into those heads, plus the full comp CNC port job, I had a lot more piece of mind than I did following that old set of sleeved LT1 heads (which I must say the intake runners looked kind of wonky from one to the other). The other alternative I considered was shipping out a set of GM LT4 bare castings I had to a reputable shop for a full port & polish, valve seat work and fitment with 2.055"/1.06" aftermarket valves, valve job, and all seals, locks, and titanium retainers (and springs). I did the math. In the end peace of mind won over (this time). I sold my LT4 castings and never looked back. I could have saved $500 by getting the regular AFR (non-comp) 210 heads, and even a few hundred more just for bare castings if I knew how to work on heads myself. But then again I would have got stuck adding costs at a later date when those parts are needed. I left all my head guesswork to the manufacturer.
Perhaps one day I will take these heads off and send them to an expert like Lloyd, but it won't be to say: "shave off as much as you possibly can from these heads"... it will be to get him to look at heads, test them, and then ask him what he would recommend we do to the heads to improve my overall setup (along with the custom cam he will be grinding for me)
