It is unusual for a throwout bearing to break like this? (updated pics with new TOB!)
09-11-2012, 10:25 PM
#21
Wasn't the square top TO bearing used in Corvettes? All the F-Body clutches I've seen come with the round top bearing. Eckler's has the square top TO bearing in their 'vette catalog. It would be nice if our clutch kits came with the square top bearing.
I keep thinking of finding a way to convert to a standard type clutch/flywheel with a hyd TO bearing. That would get rid of this *** backwards pull type clutch we're forced to deal with.
I keep thinking of finding a way to convert to a standard type clutch/flywheel with a hyd TO bearing. That would get rid of this *** backwards pull type clutch we're forced to deal with.
09-12-2012, 01:19 PM
#22
Before I dig into this I think it is worth noting that there are folks posting pictures of bearings and clutch kits in this thread that are not ours. This is not clarified and it should be, especially if there is an assertion that we aren't taking care of people that are within the warranty period.
As noted in every kit that we supply, the warranty is 120-days from the date of purchase. Rob's parts were bought 11 months ago and as such they are out of warranty. I offered to assist him with a reduced price on a new bearing or a reduced price on the kit. I think this is fair based on the timeframe since purchase.
SS, we have thousands of these kits and bearings in use with no issue. As noted, a damaged fork or pivot can lead to contact with the cover. So to can incorrect disc thickness which changes the diaphragm position (I have seen this once or twice and it was addressed immediately). There has been no issue with the plate geometry/setup.
Issues with the square-top bearing have been relative to improper alignment. When using this bearing the fork should touch on the corners (think home-plate and 2nd base). Sometimes folks install the bearing with the fork touching the sides instead and this will eventually allow the fork to pull off or the bearing to be damaged.
WRD, it seems that you make some pretty sweeping statements relative to the bearing provided and via pictures (that clearly aren't of our kit or bearing). In an effort to clear this up, our bearings are sourced from a US bearing manufacturer.
Rob, as I have noted to you we have offered the same round-top OE-type replacement bearing for some time for all of our clutch stages. The only time in the past that we offered the square-top bearing for this application was when GM made a limited time change on the OE assembly that that formed the basis of our assembly.
In an effort to continue to provide a superior product and quell any question of the bearings design and strength we will begin to include an HD version of our bearing (this unit will have a square-top design) beginning next week. If you have an issue with any of our bearings then you are welcome to contact me. As always, I am happy to speak with you any time. Thanks!
As noted in every kit that we supply, the warranty is 120-days from the date of purchase. Rob's parts were bought 11 months ago and as such they are out of warranty. I offered to assist him with a reduced price on a new bearing or a reduced price on the kit. I think this is fair based on the timeframe since purchase.
SS, we have thousands of these kits and bearings in use with no issue. As noted, a damaged fork or pivot can lead to contact with the cover. So to can incorrect disc thickness which changes the diaphragm position (I have seen this once or twice and it was addressed immediately). There has been no issue with the plate geometry/setup.
Issues with the square-top bearing have been relative to improper alignment. When using this bearing the fork should touch on the corners (think home-plate and 2nd base). Sometimes folks install the bearing with the fork touching the sides instead and this will eventually allow the fork to pull off or the bearing to be damaged.
WRD, it seems that you make some pretty sweeping statements relative to the bearing provided and via pictures (that clearly aren't of our kit or bearing). In an effort to clear this up, our bearings are sourced from a US bearing manufacturer.
Rob, as I have noted to you we have offered the same round-top OE-type replacement bearing for some time for all of our clutch stages. The only time in the past that we offered the square-top bearing for this application was when GM made a limited time change on the OE assembly that that formed the basis of our assembly.
In an effort to continue to provide a superior product and quell any question of the bearings design and strength we will begin to include an HD version of our bearing (this unit will have a square-top design) beginning next week. If you have an issue with any of our bearings then you are welcome to contact me. As always, I am happy to speak with you any time. Thanks!
09-12-2012, 01:28 PM
#24
Village Troll 
iTrader: (2)
SS, we have thousands of these kits and bearings in use with no issue. As noted, a damaged fork or pivot can lead to contact with the cover. So to can incorrect disc thickness which changes the diaphragm position (I have seen this once or twice and it was addressed immediately). There has been no issue with the plate geometry/setup.
09-12-2012, 03:28 PM
#25
Before I dig into this I think it is worth noting that there are folks posting pictures of bearings and clutch kits in this thread that are not ours. This is not clarified and it should be, especially if there is an assertion that we aren't taking care of people that are within the warranty period.
As noted in every kit that we supply, the warranty is 120-days from the date of purchase. Rob's parts were bought 11 months ago and as such they are out of warranty. I offered to assist him with a reduced price on a new bearing or a reduced price on the kit. I think this is fair based on the timeframe since purchase.
SS, we have thousands of these kits and bearings in use with no issue. As noted, a damaged fork or pivot can lead to contact with the cover. So to can incorrect disc thickness which changes the diaphragm position (I have seen this once or twice and it was addressed immediately). There has been no issue with the plate geometry/setup.
Issues with the square-top bearing have been relative to improper alignment. When using this bearing the fork should touch on the corners (think home-plate and 2nd base). Sometimes folks install the bearing with the fork touching the sides instead and this will eventually allow the fork to pull off or the bearing to be damaged.
WRD, it seems that you make some pretty sweeping statements relative to the bearing provided and via pictures (that clearly aren't of our kit or bearing). In an effort to clear this up, our bearings are sourced from a US bearing manufacturer.
Rob, as I have noted to you we have offered the same round-top OE-type replacement bearing for some time for all of our clutch stages. The only time in the past that we offered the square-top bearing for this application was when GM made a limited time change on the OE assembly that that formed the basis of our assembly.
In an effort to continue to provide a superior product and quell any question of the bearings design and strength we will begin to include an HD version of our bearing (this unit will have a square-top design) beginning next week. If you have an issue with any of our bearings then you are welcome to contact me. As always, I am happy to speak with you any time. Thanks!
As noted in every kit that we supply, the warranty is 120-days from the date of purchase. Rob's parts were bought 11 months ago and as such they are out of warranty. I offered to assist him with a reduced price on a new bearing or a reduced price on the kit. I think this is fair based on the timeframe since purchase.
SS, we have thousands of these kits and bearings in use with no issue. As noted, a damaged fork or pivot can lead to contact with the cover. So to can incorrect disc thickness which changes the diaphragm position (I have seen this once or twice and it was addressed immediately). There has been no issue with the plate geometry/setup.
Issues with the square-top bearing have been relative to improper alignment. When using this bearing the fork should touch on the corners (think home-plate and 2nd base). Sometimes folks install the bearing with the fork touching the sides instead and this will eventually allow the fork to pull off or the bearing to be damaged.
WRD, it seems that you make some pretty sweeping statements relative to the bearing provided and via pictures (that clearly aren't of our kit or bearing). In an effort to clear this up, our bearings are sourced from a US bearing manufacturer.
Rob, as I have noted to you we have offered the same round-top OE-type replacement bearing for some time for all of our clutch stages. The only time in the past that we offered the square-top bearing for this application was when GM made a limited time change on the OE assembly that that formed the basis of our assembly.
In an effort to continue to provide a superior product and quell any question of the bearings design and strength we will begin to include an HD version of our bearing (this unit will have a square-top design) beginning next week. If you have an issue with any of our bearings then you are welcome to contact me. As always, I am happy to speak with you any time. Thanks!
2. Also very LUCKY that his happened in very low speed stop and go traffic and not spinning it at 6500 rpm.
3. Understand that it's way out of warranty. I'm griping about the fact that a heavier version of the TO bearing exists when I asked Tick performance and you about it and no one mentioned that one existed. As you can see in a comment that I quoted, someone that got a spec stage 2 got one with their kit.
4. Not looking for freebies, would pay for the upgraded TO bearing with the new Spec stage 2.
More than happy to discuss this over the phone tomorrow.
09-12-2012, 08:53 PM
#26
This TOB failure is in absolutely no way different that what the LT1 community is seeing with the Chinese knockoffs or the ones that are claimed to be made in the USA. IMO, this particular failure is more of a "coming apart failure" due to likely crappy assembly as opposed to a breakage failure.
Wasn't the square top TO bearing used in Corvettes? All the F-Body clutches I've seen come with the round top bearing. Eckler's has the square top TO bearing in their 'vette catalog. It would be nice if our clutch kits came with the square top bearing.
I keep thinking of finding a way to convert to a standard type clutch/flywheel with a hyd TO bearing. That would get rid of this *** backwards pull type clutch we're forced to deal with.
I keep thinking of finding a way to convert to a standard type clutch/flywheel with a hyd TO bearing. That would get rid of this *** backwards pull type clutch we're forced to deal with.
09-12-2012, 09:43 PM
#27
The thinner round flange (hat) is not the problem and the thicker square flange really does little to prevent this problem. The excess crimping or rolling over process during assembly is what ultimately what will cause this problem. That said, I still like the thicker square flange TOB because it welds up better, like shown in the pic.
09-13-2012, 07:35 AM
#29
Village Troll
iTrader: (2)
SS, we have thousands of these kits and bearings in use with no issue. As noted, a damaged fork or pivot can lead to contact with the cover. So to can incorrect disc thickness which changes the diaphragm position (I have seen this once or twice and it was addressed immediately). There has been no issue with the plate geometry/setup.
What are the allowable tolerances regarding thickness of the Spec 3+ clutch supposed to be?
09-13-2012, 09:20 AM
#30
So even though the square plate is thicker than the round it's the rolled area that is the weak point. Looks that way in the pic too. If that's true than even welding it on the outside might not help. Can't tell from this pic whether the rolled area is thicker or not but ****** that posted this pic says the one on the right came with the Spec stage 2+. If so after what happened with mine why was it not offered?
BTW when welding under the hat, take into account fork clearances and only weld a single tack at a time to prevent overheating the unit and damaging the inner plastic sleeve. IIRC, I have 4 nice tacks under my square hat.
09-13-2012, 11:07 AM
#31
Here's the wrecked bearing. I'm no metalurgist but it's amazing this doesn't happen more often with the thin amount of metal I see here. I can see now why you guys tack weld it. There are no markings as to where it's made (China or USA). Rob at Brigandi Bros was showing me how much force you need to pull the pressure plate fingers. He wasn't thrilled with the design and he knows his ****.
09-13-2012, 11:20 AM
#32
As noted in every kit that we supply, the warranty is 120-days from the date of purchase.
In an effort to clear this up, our bearings are sourced from a US bearing manufacturer.
In an effort to continue to provide a superior product and quell any question of the bearings design and strength we will begin to include an HD version of our bearing (this unit will have a square-top design) beginning next week. !
In an effort to clear this up, our bearings are sourced from a US bearing manufacturer.
In an effort to continue to provide a superior product and quell any question of the bearings design and strength we will begin to include an HD version of our bearing (this unit will have a square-top design) beginning next week. !
2. it is my post showing the "square" top TO bearing I got with your 2+ clutch. If made in America...it is not marked as such. Maybe your "US" supplier gets them offshore. I do feel it is a better TO bearing simply because it has a measured thicker flange top
3. your position to now change to what is regarded as a "better" TO bearing is noted. Given this SPEC product change my opinion is they should be offered free or at cost to those who had "SPEC" clutch TO bearings fail.
another note on "date of purchase" for warrenty. Many of us buy parts towards a build but don't install them for sometimes months later. Yes clutches get significant use & abuse but when a part fails because of design, materials or workmanship it certainly should be covered longer than 120 days.
09-14-2012, 12:49 PM
#33
Let's just say the clutch fork and pivot point are not damaged. Can you answer as to how it is a thicker clutch, which allows contact to be made with the clutch fork, would not have dragging issues? This Spec 3+ pressure plate was accompanied with the same clutch and TO bearing from the kit as well as the same clutch fork which replaced a Spec IV pressure plate, clutch and Spec TO bearing and had no issues. Yet when the Spec 3+ was installed the result was this:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/x...7/DSC09678.jpg
What are the allowable tolerances regarding thickness of the Spec 3+ clutch supposed to be?
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/x...7/DSC09678.jpg
What are the allowable tolerances regarding thickness of the Spec 3+ clutch supposed to be?
Similarly, a thicker clutch disc which increases bearing travel for clutch release will also lead to fork travel close to the pressure plate.
I don't know that you do or do not have an apples to apples parts comparison but I know it's frustrating for the Valeo setup to have so narrow a tolerance for minor parts dimension changes.
09-14-2012, 01:33 PM
#34
Village Troll
iTrader: (2)
Similarly, a thicker clutch disc which increases bearing travel for clutch release will also lead to fork travel close to the pressure plate.
Last edited by SS RRR; 09-14-2012 at 02:33 PM.
09-15-2012, 07:35 AM
#36
Village Troll
iTrader: (2)
09-15-2012, 10:16 AM
#37
I'm not sure where the increased bearing travel comes into play? If anything the travel will be decreased if the clutch and/or PP are thicker, which is why I question how it is a thicker clutch, which could cause the PP to come into contact with the clutch fork and not have dragging issues like what I experienced?
09-19-2012, 11:28 AM
#38
SS RRR, disc thickness affects diaphragm height as a result of its impact on the position of the plate and thus the fingers and the fork. If a disc is either too thick or too thin is can cause enough diaphragm height change to put the fork out of position. As noted, we have addressed this in instances where it has occured. Tollerence is +/- .005 placing the thickness between .350-.360".
Rob, The earlier offered square bearing was not the same as the newly offered HD bearing. This is something we are offering as a result of your situation and I am sure that it will help with any further issues. The Round bearing was all that has been offered for some time and there was no square bearing offered for any of our kits when you ordered.
WRD and *****, its clear that we are damned if we do, damned if we don't in your opinion (and this isn't the first time you have made your opinion clear). We are attempting to help a customer and work to address any further potential for bearing damage by offering a HD version of the bearing. As noted in my first post I am happy to work with anyone that has an issue with our bearing. I'm sorry if this doesn't make you happy...damn me all you want! And, if you all ever make it down to AL drop by I will be happy to buy you a beer...again damn me!
Let me know if you all have any further questions. Thanks!
Rob, The earlier offered square bearing was not the same as the newly offered HD bearing. This is something we are offering as a result of your situation and I am sure that it will help with any further issues. The Round bearing was all that has been offered for some time and there was no square bearing offered for any of our kits when you ordered.
WRD and *****, its clear that we are damned if we do, damned if we don't in your opinion (and this isn't the first time you have made your opinion clear). We are attempting to help a customer and work to address any further potential for bearing damage by offering a HD version of the bearing. As noted in my first post I am happy to work with anyone that has an issue with our bearing. I'm sorry if this doesn't make you happy...damn me all you want! And, if you all ever make it down to AL drop by I will be happy to buy you a beer...again damn me!
Let me know if you all have any further questions. Thanks!
09-19-2012, 01:31 PM
#39
Village Troll
iTrader: (2)
SS RRR, disc thickness affects diaphragm height as a result of its impact on the position of the plate and thus the fingers and the fork. If a disc is either too thick or too thin is can cause enough diaphragm height change to put the fork out of position. As noted, we have addressed this in instances where it has occured. Tollerence is +/- .005 placing the thickness between .350-.360".
09-19-2012, 08:16 PM
#40
WRD and *****, its clear that we are damned if we do, damned if we don't in your opinion (and this isn't the first time you have made your opinion clear). We are attempting to help a customer and work to address any further potential for bearing damage by offering a HD version of the bearing. As noted in my first post I am happy to work with anyone that has an issue with our bearing. I'm sorry if this doesn't make you happy...damn me all you want!
Knowing what I know about American industry, I dont believe your American TOB source is actually making them here in the USA to the pecise OEM spec because there is little money to be made considering the outdated design and demand. I could be wrong but you did not specify that they are actually Americn made to precise OEM spec, just sourced in the USA.
3 month warranty the disk and PP all you want, I can respect your view. OPs TOB failure is the result of materials failure or faulty assembly and should have been replaced at no charge no questions asked, in my opinion and you work it out with you American source.
Is it fair that SPEC has a very consistant opinion on a public message board that most SPEC clutch issues are installer error right from the jump in most threads? Just saying.
Last edited by wrd1972; 09-20-2012 at 10:24 AM.