Advance Auto Timing Gear Set?
01-14-2013, 09:25 AM
#21
Best set I have found (big time Stock Eliminator LT1 engine builder Woodro Josey put me onto them) is Roll Master, made I believe in Australia. I've run one a long time with a big solid roller and mucho spring. I'm a believer. Scoggin Dickey sells them. Not sure who else.
01-15-2013, 09:10 PM
#22
Uh huh!!!!
SO my 55gpm pump running at the same speed all the time is worse than a mechanical pump that will fluctate with engine speed?
Not to mention...I can bleed the cooling sytem without even starting the car. Hmmmm. That makes life simple.
As far as the timing sets? Breakage is not the concern, it's stretching. Loose chain = poor irregular timing. My original set had 135k and my last LT1 set had less than 30k miles on it and I could damn near. Both were like the chain slack on a dirt bike.
There's a reason why "race engines" run belt or gear drive. It's not for the sound. It's for timing accuracy.
BTW, wy do you think GM made the Extreme duty Set? they new the stocker was weak.
SO my 55gpm pump running at the same speed all the time is worse than a mechanical pump that will fluctate with engine speed?
Not to mention...I can bleed the cooling sytem without even starting the car. Hmmmm. That makes life simple.
As far as the timing sets? Breakage is not the concern, it's stretching. Loose chain = poor irregular timing. My original set had 135k and my last LT1 set had less than 30k miles on it and I could damn near. Both were like the chain slack on a dirt bike.
There's a reason why "race engines" run belt or gear drive. It's not for the sound. It's for timing accuracy.
BTW, wy do you think GM made the Extreme duty Set? they new the stocker was weak.
As usual the most basic of comprehension escapes you, then you go on to directly contradict yourself in a blind bid to argue with me.
Does an engine at no load idle produce as much heat as one pumping out 500fwhp at 6500rpm? Are the cooling needs identical under both conditions?
Far as the stock chain, yeah it can be loose, far as it being a genuine problem my stock shortblock with REUSED 50K mile chain ran better than the "popular" setups same track same day. Is it perfect hell no but it is not that bad either.
What race engines do doesn't always translate well to street engines, for a race engine $800 for a belt drive that gains 5hp on a 700hp engine might be worthwhile on a mild street/strip car where the cam is "set and forget" who knows maybe the engine likes the cam to be a degree behind where you thought you were installing it. Almost nobody fine tunes their street/strip stuff well enough to worry about what a little slack in the chain does to timing, besides a $20 Cloyes lower gear will tighten up the stocker.
Far as the ED set, in my more than a decade on various LT1 forums I have seen more examples of those breaking than stock chains. Now granted the ED sets are used on modded vehicles but I have a stock set on a car just shy of 300K miles sitting in the yard right now.
The ED set isn't "bad" but it isn't great either. It is a roller chain and would free up a slight amount of power lost to friction on the stock LT1 chain but to claim it is stronger is more blind faith than anything else.
01-16-2013, 05:02 AM
#23
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As usual the most basic of comprehension escapes you, then you go on to directly contradict yourself in a blind bid to argue with me.
Does an engine at no load idle produce as much heat as one pumping out 500fwhp at 6500rpm? Are the cooling needs identical under both conditions?
Far as the stock chain, yeah it can be loose, far as it being a genuine problem my stock shortblock with REUSED 50K mile chain ran better than the "popular" setups same track same day. Is it perfect hell no but it is not that bad either.
What race engines do doesn't always translate well to street engines, for a race engine $800 for a belt drive that gains 5hp on a 700hp engine might be worthwhile on a mild street/strip car where the cam is "set and forget" who knows maybe the engine likes the cam to be a degree behind where you thought you were installing it. Almost nobody fine tunes their street/strip stuff well enough to worry about what a little slack in the chain does to timing, besides a $20 Cloyes lower gear will tighten up the stocker.
Far as the ED set, in my more than a decade on various LT1 forums I have seen more examples of those breaking than stock chains. Now granted the ED sets are used on modded vehicles but I have a stock set on a car just shy of 300K miles sitting in the yard right now.
The ED set isn't "bad" but it isn't great either. It is a roller chain and would free up a slight amount of power lost to friction on the stock LT1 chain but to claim it is stronger is more blind faith than anything else.
Does an engine at no load idle produce as much heat as one pumping out 500fwhp at 6500rpm? Are the cooling needs identical under both conditions?
Far as the stock chain, yeah it can be loose, far as it being a genuine problem my stock shortblock with REUSED 50K mile chain ran better than the "popular" setups same track same day. Is it perfect hell no but it is not that bad either.
What race engines do doesn't always translate well to street engines, for a race engine $800 for a belt drive that gains 5hp on a 700hp engine might be worthwhile on a mild street/strip car where the cam is "set and forget" who knows maybe the engine likes the cam to be a degree behind where you thought you were installing it. Almost nobody fine tunes their street/strip stuff well enough to worry about what a little slack in the chain does to timing, besides a $20 Cloyes lower gear will tighten up the stocker.
Far as the ED set, in my more than a decade on various LT1 forums I have seen more examples of those breaking than stock chains. Now granted the ED sets are used on modded vehicles but I have a stock set on a car just shy of 300K miles sitting in the yard right now.
The ED set isn't "bad" but it isn't great either. It is a roller chain and would free up a slight amount of power lost to friction on the stock LT1 chain but to claim it is stronger is more blind faith than anything else.
01-16-2013, 09:04 AM
#24
Caprice manager, you are so far off on so many points you are making yourself look like a fool. People have gone to gear drives and belt drives because of timing chain breakage. Not timing acuracy. I have never heard of anybody breaking a Roll Master set. Do not confuse them with a Cloyes true roller.
They include Billet gears and a needle bearing thrust washer on the back of the cam sprocket along with advance & retard key ways in the crank sprocket. The gentleman that put me onto those timing sets has built more (fast) LT1s than most of us put together. He says they are more reliable. His recommendation comes from over 20 years of building LT1s, not "over a decade" of cruising internet message boards.
You are so sarcastic, you should read some of your own long-winded posts.
You are so certain you know more than anybody else, I'm thinking you must be an engineer.
They include Billet gears and a needle bearing thrust washer on the back of the cam sprocket along with advance & retard key ways in the crank sprocket. The gentleman that put me onto those timing sets has built more (fast) LT1s than most of us put together. He says they are more reliable. His recommendation comes from over 20 years of building LT1s, not "over a decade" of cruising internet message boards.
You are so sarcastic, you should read some of your own long-winded posts.
You are so certain you know more than anybody else, I'm thinking you must be an engineer.
01-17-2013, 08:00 PM
#25
I have addressed the "manager" thing before it is Medium Garnet Red.
Far as the timing chain/gears/belts thing look at SAPPER's post.
You are reading into things looking to manufacture an argument with me.
Far as the Roll Master please quote where I said anything negative about it or that stock was best or any other specific point you want to discuss rather than trying to just taking a shot at my character.
Please show examples of how the stock chain is "so bad" that it is a problem in need of solving.
I never said it was best just that every day we see people told they should spend what $300+ on an electric pump plus a spare plus an "upgraded" timing set and then those same folks "save" $2-300 on the engine topend and valvetrain and get heads with cracked guides, milled crooked, wildly inconsistent performance, perforations between ports or to water, intake manifolds ported so thin handling punches through.
I am not an engineer, I get my hands dirty for a living.
Far as the timing chain/gears/belts thing look at SAPPER's post.
You are reading into things looking to manufacture an argument with me.
Far as the Roll Master please quote where I said anything negative about it or that stock was best or any other specific point you want to discuss rather than trying to just taking a shot at my character.
Please show examples of how the stock chain is "so bad" that it is a problem in need of solving.
I never said it was best just that every day we see people told they should spend what $300+ on an electric pump plus a spare plus an "upgraded" timing set and then those same folks "save" $2-300 on the engine topend and valvetrain and get heads with cracked guides, milled crooked, wildly inconsistent performance, perforations between ports or to water, intake manifolds ported so thin handling punches through.
I am not an engineer, I get my hands dirty for a living.
01-18-2013, 10:45 AM
#27
Some of these guys have solid roller cams and big springs. Stock chains can & will break in those situations. Not everybody has a hydraulic cam and soft springs like you do. If I had a hydraulic cam in my primary driver I would not put an electric water pump on it either. Like a stock timing chain, they can and do fail. You keeping mentioning ED timing sets felt like you were taking shots at me. If you got out in the real world around actual LT1 race cars you would find more about the weak links. Like the timing chain. Some guys on here race their cars, and find info like that useful. Not everybody here is working on their grocery getter.
Last edited by Ed Wright; 01-18-2013 at 11:11 AM.
01-18-2013, 12:31 PM
#28
BTW, what do you have against engineers? From that comment above, I have to assume you've encountered only the academically-sheltered diploma-wielding types. You'd be in a helluva fix for good race car parts if it weren't for REAL engineers
01-18-2013, 05:52 PM
#30
Oh ****!....... He means the GM LT4 Extreme Duty set, Ed
BTW, what do you have against engineers? From that comment above, I have to assume you've encountered only the academically-sheltered diploma-wielding types. You'd be in a helluva fix for good race car parts if it weren't for REAL engineers
BTW, what do you have against engineers? From that comment above, I have to assume you've encountered only the academically-sheltered diploma-wielding types. You'd be in a helluva fix for good race car parts if it weren't for REAL engineers
Many (not all, I know some great ones) engineers I have met talk down to people the way he does. Convinced they know more than anybody else. I've raced many of that kind. When you keep beating them they always come back with you spending way more money or just cheating. I pretty much love racing them.
01-18-2013, 09:09 PM
#31
Of course a solid roller setup needs some more robust parts than a near stock or the vast majority of hydraulic setups.
Those running solid rollers are a tiny percentage of those of us playing with the LT1.
The OP said.
So it sounds like a stockish setup, not a solid roller.
Nowhere did I say a stock chain was right for all setups, you were just looking for an argument and misread the Extreme Duty thing and then got caught up in finding some way to prove me wrong no matter what I actually said.
Far as finding the true weak links that is one of the things I find great about Jeff Green's car, half of that car is stuff every kid here thinks wont suffice for a 1000lbs lighter f-body running 2 seconds slower. He is one of VERY few actually testing limits of parts rather than blindly dismissing stuff. He does make things harder on himself in using so much stockish stuff though, IMO if he would put a 9" and TH400 in the thing he could probably run the 8s he is seeking at 4400lbs.
Those running solid rollers are a tiny percentage of those of us playing with the LT1.
The OP said.
Thanks guys. Wasn't sure. Just weighing my options for when I start replacing my cam gear and stuff on my 93 motor to run my 96's vented opti and what not.
Nowhere did I say a stock chain was right for all setups, you were just looking for an argument and misread the Extreme Duty thing and then got caught up in finding some way to prove me wrong no matter what I actually said.
Far as finding the true weak links that is one of the things I find great about Jeff Green's car, half of that car is stuff every kid here thinks wont suffice for a 1000lbs lighter f-body running 2 seconds slower. He is one of VERY few actually testing limits of parts rather than blindly dismissing stuff. He does make things harder on himself in using so much stockish stuff though, IMO if he would put a 9" and TH400 in the thing he could probably run the 8s he is seeking at 4400lbs.
