School me on Rings
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (16)
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 2
From: burbs of chi-town
School me on Rings So I'm building my parts list. Before people tell me that I should be duplicating proven combos....I'm not. Not in the LTx world anyway. I'm more looking for why the price difference. What makes one set worth way more than the next?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0305/overview/
vs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pc...-035/overview/
vs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0303/overview/
Engine will be going in a Z28 that is mostly a DD with drag strip outings almost every other weekend. The engine is going to Rev being a 355 with light (~570 gr.) rods and pistons (~343 gr.). This is about 225 gr. less than stock parts. I'm not planning on any power adder, but I may toss 100-150 shot on it, if I'm not happy with the power output. I'm not planning on that happening. Since I can't pull up the Probe Ring set on Summit, I'm going off what I found. I haven't included the Total Seal sets because they are over $300 a set for just the rings. So the question is, What makes these range in price? And which would be a better set for my intended application (or should I call a builder<--that I'm not totally ready to do since I'm still in planning stages)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0305/overview/
vs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pc...-035/overview/
vs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0303/overview/
Engine will be going in a Z28 that is mostly a DD with drag strip outings almost every other weekend. The engine is going to Rev being a 355 with light (~570 gr.) rods and pistons (~343 gr.). This is about 225 gr. less than stock parts. I'm not planning on any power adder, but I may toss 100-150 shot on it, if I'm not happy with the power output. I'm not planning on that happening. Since I can't pull up the Probe Ring set on Summit, I'm going off what I found. I haven't included the Total Seal sets because they are over $300 a set for just the rings. So the question is, What makes these range in price? And which would be a better set for my intended application (or should I call a builder<--that I'm not totally ready to do since I'm still in planning stages)
I just did a ton of research on rings for a 440 ls2. I spoke with late Model racecraft, dimond pistons and total seal. For a set up like yours look into gapless rings... I would call the company that make the pistons and see what they recommend. Also find out who makes there rings for them.
if it's going to be a daily driver you might want to go with a standard tension oil ring and also a napeir second ring. You may not have enough oil control. I would call total seal and get a gapless top ring and a napier second with standard tension oil rings. Rings are very important and can cost you a lot of HP if you get the wrong ones
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (16)
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 2
From: burbs of chi-town
That's why I'm looking into this as well. According to summit the Total Seal Gapless ring sets are $373 for a Steel top ring, cast iron second and a standard tension oil ring, and $318 for a ductile iron top, cast second and standard oil ring. So needless to say this is why I'm asking....Ranges from $45 to $373 for a set of 8 is a pretty big swing. The pistons are Probe forgings and they have rings listed on their site, but Summit doesn't have them, so pricing is a bit tough. I'm really hoping some of the older, wiser guys will chime in and give me a little bit of direction. As of right now this is all planning stages. I've been looking at the Probes because of the features for the price. It's $400 for the pistons and pins and they weigh in extremely light, which is what drew me to them. The downside I'm seeing is the 1.2mm/1.5mm/3mm Ring setup they have.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 323
Likes: 2
From: NW AR
I wouldn't go mixing your own ring packages to pistons if this is the first engine you have built.
Why not check out JE Pistons or some other online manufacturer website? They have lighter pistons and tell you what ring package to run.
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Automotive/Chevy_SB/
Here are the SBC piston companies that I know of, look them up online, check jegs, check summit, if it comes down to it, you can order through jegs or summit. I have had to order Mahle pistons before and you can't buy direct.
Arias
AutoTec/RaceTec
CP/Carillo
Clevite/Federal-Mogul
Badger
BME
Diamond
DSS Racing
GM
Howards Cams
JE/SRP
Kieth Black
Lunati
Mahle
Manley
Probe
Ross
Sealed Power
Speed Pro
Summit Racing
Trick Flow
TRW
Venolia
Wiesco
Why not check out JE Pistons or some other online manufacturer website? They have lighter pistons and tell you what ring package to run.
http://www.jepistons.com/Catalogs/Automotive/Chevy_SB/
Here are the SBC piston companies that I know of, look them up online, check jegs, check summit, if it comes down to it, you can order through jegs or summit. I have had to order Mahle pistons before and you can't buy direct.
Arias
AutoTec/RaceTec
CP/Carillo
Clevite/Federal-Mogul
Badger
BME
Diamond
DSS Racing
GM
Howards Cams
JE/SRP
Kieth Black
Lunati
Mahle
Manley
Probe
Ross
Sealed Power
Speed Pro
Summit Racing
Trick Flow
TRW
Venolia
Wiesco
On The Tree
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
So I'm building my parts list. Before people tell me that I should be duplicating proven combos....I'm not. Not in the LTx world anyway. I'm more looking for why the price difference. What makes one set worth way more than the next?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0305/overview/
vs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pc...-035/overview/
vs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0303/overview/
Engine will be going in a Z28 that is mostly a DD with drag strip outings almost every other weekend. The engine is going to Rev being a 355 with light (~570 gr.) rods and pistons (~343 gr.). This is about 225 gr. less than stock parts. I'm not planning on any power adder, but I may toss 100-150 shot on it, if I'm not happy with the power output. I'm not planning on that happening. Since I can't pull up the Probe Ring set on Summit, I'm going off what I found. I haven't included the Total Seal sets because they are over $300 a set for just the rings. So the question is, What makes these range in price? And which would be a better set for my intended application (or should I call a builder<--that I'm not totally ready to do since I'm still in planning stages)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0305/overview/
vs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pc...-035/overview/
vs.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/je...0303/overview/
Engine will be going in a Z28 that is mostly a DD with drag strip outings almost every other weekend. The engine is going to Rev being a 355 with light (~570 gr.) rods and pistons (~343 gr.). This is about 225 gr. less than stock parts. I'm not planning on any power adder, but I may toss 100-150 shot on it, if I'm not happy with the power output. I'm not planning on that happening. Since I can't pull up the Probe Ring set on Summit, I'm going off what I found. I haven't included the Total Seal sets because they are over $300 a set for just the rings. So the question is, What makes these range in price? And which would be a better set for my intended application (or should I call a builder<--that I'm not totally ready to do since I'm still in planning stages)
If memory serves, on a modified SBC 350/383 motor making right around 475-500 FWHP ..... the "gapless" ring design was worth right around (a proven?) 8-10 FWHP increase over standard rings. Because of this documented gain ......... Total Seal priced these rings accordingly!!!
It all seems to "boil down" to this ......... if you are deep into an engine re-build where you are replacing rings ......... are you willing to spend and extra $250, or so, for a documented 8-10 FWHP gain???? If you are "class racing", or building an engine to STRICT rule standards then, of course, the extra $250 for that 8-10 FWHP is WELL worth it. For a DD application with some dragsrtip duty ....... YOU need to decide how much you're willing to pay per HP increase, and ....... how much work is involved in getting that extra HP increase while the engine is being built.
Trending Topics
While theoretically the gapless concept is "best", I'm still not convinced of it's real world merit. No data to support that, just my observations of a few reputable builders who aren't very high on them. If I were looking for every advantage without regard to cost, I could be talked into using them.
I'm more inclined to believe the findings of somebody like John Lingenfelter (said any gains were lost in the noise) than a magazine "testing" one of its advertisers' products. Perhaps they've gotten better since the initial designs?
Hopefully somebody responds with some data or source to get me more excited about them
I'm more inclined to believe the findings of somebody like John Lingenfelter (said any gains were lost in the noise) than a magazine "testing" one of its advertisers' products. Perhaps they've gotten better since the initial designs?
Hopefully somebody responds with some data or source to get me more excited about them
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (16)
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 2
From: burbs of chi-town
That's kinda what I was figuring. To ME the super expensive rings aren't worth the $$$. I need something that will get the job done on what is more than likely going to be an NA build. For that reason I'm also considering hyperutectic pistons since they don't new to stand up to the abuse of spray or boost. That's why I'm pricing and building on paper before I spend a huge chunk of change only to change my mind. I appreciate everyone's opinions.
On The Tree
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
While theoretically the gapless concept is "best", I'm still not convinced of it's real world merit. No data to support that, just my observations of a few reputable builders who aren't very high on them. If I were looking for every advantage without regard to cost, I could be talked into using them.
I'm more inclined to believe the findings of somebody like John Lingenfelter (said any gains were lost in the noise) than a magazine "testing" one of its advertisers' products. Perhaps they've gotten better since the initial designs?
Hopefully somebody responds with some data or source to get me more excited about them
I'm more inclined to believe the findings of somebody like John Lingenfelter (said any gains were lost in the noise) than a magazine "testing" one of its advertisers' products. Perhaps they've gotten better since the initial designs?
Hopefully somebody responds with some data or source to get me more excited about them
Sometimes(???) the old/older (i.e. read dinosaur???) engine builders who have been machining blocks for standard rings sets for ...... ever, also tend NOT to support NEW technology ....... when it affects what THEY have to do in their processes to incorporate it.
Just more fodder for speculation???
Regarding what I highlighted in Bowtienut's post above ....... I do remember that Total Seal required a different surface finish RMS requirement on final cylinder hone when using these "gapless" rings.
Sometimes(???) the old/older (i.e. read dinosaurs???) who been machining blocks for standard rings sets for ...... ever, also tend NOT to support NEW technology ....... when it affects what THEY have to do in their processes to incorporate it.
Just more fodder for speculation???
Sometimes(???) the old/older (i.e. read dinosaurs???) who been machining blocks for standard rings sets for ...... ever, also tend NOT to support NEW technology ....... when it affects what THEY have to do in their processes to incorporate it.
Just more fodder for speculation???
No, I was thinking of a couple of top-notch modern operations building race-winning stuff. I assure you they can give you any surface finish you'd like
They'll use them on mild stuff depending on customer preference, with no issues at all, but seem to shun them as the power requirement goes up.I wonder what the Sprint Cup think tanks over in the Carolinas use. Anybody know?
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (16)
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 2
From: burbs of chi-town
Thanks GIZMO. I didn't even realize that the first was for ine piston. Maybe I should pay a little more attention. I'd be really interested in picking your brain as to the benefits of a 1.2mm top ring. The pistons I found while looking around had them, hence the ring packages I posted. I've just been trying to figure out if it really is the best option. I haven't really seen anything saying otherwise, infact everything I've read says basically to go with the thinnest rings possible.
Thanks GIZMO. I didn't even realize that the first was for ine piston. Maybe I should pay a little more attention. I'd be really interested in picking your brain as to the benefits of a 1.2mm top ring. The pistons I found while looking around had them, hence the ring packages I posted. I've just been trying to figure out if it really is the best option. I haven't really seen anything saying otherwise, infact everything I've read says basically to go with the thinnest rings possible.
Thread Starter
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (16)
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 2
From: burbs of chi-town
Nitrous is more an after thought. I'm not planning on running it at this point in time which is why I'm considering hyper pistons. The probes that I priced are forgings, but with an NA build why not go with hyper and save money and weight there as well? I guess it's all a durability question in the end.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,037
Likes: 2
Depends if you would rather save money now get hypers and then change them or have it go boom.
So spend money and build it right one time, or have to tear it apart and buy other parts again.
I would go with the first one.
So spend money and build it right one time, or have to tear it apart and buy other parts again.
I would go with the first one.
While theoretically the gapless concept is "best", I'm still not convinced of it's real world merit. No data to support that, just my observations of a few reputable builders who aren't very high on them. If I were looking for every advantage without regard to cost, I could be talked into using them.
I'm more inclined to believe the findings of somebody like John Lingenfelter (said any gains were lost in the noise) than a magazine "testing" one of its advertisers' products. Perhaps they've gotten better since the initial designs?
Hopefully somebody responds with some data or source to get me more excited about them
I'm more inclined to believe the findings of somebody like John Lingenfelter (said any gains were lost in the noise) than a magazine "testing" one of its advertisers' products. Perhaps they've gotten better since the initial designs?
Hopefully somebody responds with some data or source to get me more excited about them
also oP there is good info above from things you need to consider ie finish bore, ring weight and thickness
On piston material I understand and agree that hyper would be sufficient for many builds BUT what is the selection like in quality hypereutetic pistons? Is anybody really making anything nice with that material to even consider?
A quick Summit search looked like a Speed Pro offering was looking best but still had a 1/16" ring package which is slightly thicker than stock but when I tried to find a weight for it I found this.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...=21385#p234277
Which kind of backs up what I suspected about nobody actually making a good piston in that material other than OEM stuff.
I suspect GM may offers a "stock LT1" piston in a .030 overbore for rebuilds but I would also suspect it cost more than going forged.
If buying pistons for a street car I would do 4032 forged lots of nice options in that material, sure the strength is overkill but like I said I think it is what you need to look at to find quality offerings.
2618 is stronger yet but really not as well suited to a daily driver sort of car.
A quick Summit search looked like a Speed Pro offering was looking best but still had a 1/16" ring package which is slightly thicker than stock but when I tried to find a weight for it I found this.
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic...=21385#p234277
Which kind of backs up what I suspected about nobody actually making a good piston in that material other than OEM stuff.
I suspect GM may offers a "stock LT1" piston in a .030 overbore for rebuilds but I would also suspect it cost more than going forged.
If buying pistons for a street car I would do 4032 forged lots of nice options in that material, sure the strength is overkill but like I said I think it is what you need to look at to find quality offerings.
2618 is stronger yet but really not as well suited to a daily driver sort of car.
I'd fully expect to see a big difference in a static demo / leakdown number like you described, Mike.
The ring-type discussion aside, I think your observations on your own meticulously measured/machined/blueprinted motor really emphasize how important the other factors are (bore finish, ring geometry, etc). Until you perfectly seal the 359.9 degrees of ring-bore interface, what you do in that last 0.1 degree is futile. Those numbers are pretty close to actual, BTW
The ring-type discussion aside, I think your observations on your own meticulously measured/machined/blueprinted motor really emphasize how important the other factors are (bore finish, ring geometry, etc). Until you perfectly seal the 359.9 degrees of ring-bore interface, what you do in that last 0.1 degree is futile. Those numbers are pretty close to actual, BTW