Puck

iTrader: (17)

On big shots of nitrous the single plane is usually used for even nitrous distribution.

There are tons of speculation and opinions about single planes...some say they are useless, some say they only help over 7k, others say they only work without an elbow because the turn negates the benefit, and still others claim the opposite and say a good elbow will actually help since it essentially increases plenum volume...which kind of makes sense in certain combos.

Ed, I think it was you who tested a single plane a while back on the dyno with spacers and at a comical 7" of spacers it was still picking up power on top? I found that very interesting.

Only real way to be satisfy yourself is to try it on your combo and see if your motor likes it more then a ported LT intake, tested back to back on the same dyno or same day at the track. Even with all the knowledge, simulations, and experience in the world its hard to tell exactly what an engine will like until you start testing that particular motor and tuning it with different things.

**edit** Also, the cam makes a huge difference on what intake an engine will like. Thinks like overlap and reversion create different conditions at different RPMs inside an LT1 intake then in a single plane.

Ed Wright

iTrader: (1)

I thought my test results were pretty clear. If I was going to spend that much (and I did for both set ups) I would call Hogan's Manifolds. As I mentioned, my ported LT4 intake made the same power as the single plane, both made less, and ran slower, than my Hogan fabricated intake.

I'm not sure what you mean about distribution? I had 8 wide bands in it on the dyno. Besides the 4 white spark plugs with the single plane, I had to make larger cylinder-to-cylinder fueling corrections with the single plane than the other two.
My LT4 manifold has had the top cut off to allow more work than you can do from the bottom. I know one engine builder that has changed his LT1 SS engines to single plane intakes to get his egt numbers even, but he wasn't using Hogan. I know other Super Stock LT1 racers that have seen what I did, to some that saw no change in performance at all. One had a Hogan manifold, a couple others had another brand.

Heck, I just told you what I spent a lot of time and money to test. Thought it might save somebody else spending a lot of money on testing.

I would be real interested to see these 700 HP NA LT1s.

Ed Wright

iTrader: (1)

Puck, I have no clue what you are talking about?
7" spacers for what?

Btw, same day, same dyno. Single plane made a couple more ft lbs below 5200, was down everywhere above 6000. Down 11 hp @ 7500, down 15 @ 8000, so no it didn't shine above 7000. Had a Wilson elbow, and an Edelbrock, which was lower @ longer. Could not shut the hood on the Wilson elbow.

Hit em Up

iTrader: (3)

I'm asking these questions because I'm building a 385ci lt1 right now with a sheet metal intake and solid roller for the street! As far as my 396 I'm right at 700hp na and it will see a good bit of nitrous.It has an untouched single plane besides port matching and the rest of the build is nothing really special.I was referring to traditional sbc engines making 700 plus with single plane manifolds not lt1s.So my question is do you think the results would be the same with the addition of a power adder? Again as far as distribution goes I have seen many n2o lt1s have problems with the rear cylinders as a result,maybe tune and lack of proper porting played a role.I'm just trying to gather info and get different opinions myself so I can compare and make my own decision not attacking your experience!!

Puck

iTrader: (17)

Distribution as in nitrous distribution, not for an NA motor. On a big shot, a 4bbl plate setup is supposed to be safer then an LT1 plate behind the forward facing TB. I don't run any nitrous and never tested the two, but that is what I have heard, and it makes sense to me.

I was recalling a test where someone ran a single plane setup with TB spacers on the dyno, and made it up to 7" of spacers with it still picking up power per run. I thought it was you, but I guess not. Maybe it was one of the Bauers.

I understand your test results and they are perfectly clear to me that your engine likes the max effort LT4 intake better (was the same amount of work done to the single plane?), but there is a whole world of high HP SBCs running single planes and I don't see any of them switching to HSRs or converted LT1 intakes. Just trying to find out the reasons why. Is it because of the unconventional cams you guys use in SE/SS cars are using that the motors prefer the shared box plenum style intakes? Just trying to learn here .

Taner spent big money on a Hogans and I think he ended up selling it for a Dominator flange single plane?

Ed Wright

iTrader: (1)

One of the guys that found no difference with the single plane had an HRS sheet metal intake. All fabricated intake are not equal. You have to fill out a sheet telling him about your block hight and engine combo. Dave Layer ( Heads Up! Cylinder Heads) did my heads and sent Hogan a pattern/template for my ports. I'm not going to name the fabricated intake the shop that changed to single plane manifolds to even out his EGTs, but they are a very well known cylinder head shop. Jeff Taylor Race Engines is the shop, one of the very top SS engine builders in the U.S. is the shop that went to single planes. At least EGTs are the reason he gave a friend of mine for the change. As I mentioned, several SS guys have tested it with mixed results. My single plane was ported by Gary Hetler, one of the top SS cylinder head guys in the U.S.
don't know if anybody here has heard on Warren Engines in Clinton SC? Bobby Warren had a factory intake on his LT1 (top had been removed for port work) last time I saw him. At lease as fast as mine. LOL

When I was screwing around with it, I was playing with the same engine modeling software Bret Bauer uses. I emailed him my files, and my Hogan measurements, cross sections, tapers, etc. He agreed the Hogan should be faster. I have a friend in Houston with a car like mine that is very fast (Gary Emmons) with a single plane. Don't know if my manifold would make him faster. (Hope not! LOL) He has not tried it. Jeff Taylor originally built it with the single plane.

Btw, you need to come to a big NHRA race and check out all the fast SBC Comp eliminator cars with sheet metal intakes with a carb on top.

I can't speak for nitrous. I have no use for that ****. If I was going to build a bad-assed nitrous engine I would use nozzles in each runner anyway. (I think I just threw up in my mouth. Lets talk about something else. LOL)

396LT4IROC

Excuses aren't an excuse somebody should use for there underperformance. Underperformance is due to not having the right parts, combos, misinformation, and misconceptions of a build. At the end of the day if your car is slower then you thought, that really isn't anyone's fault but yourself. If someone screws up on the build you payed them to build its obviously there fault. Thats why I always stick to building my own. It is funny when you look at the excuses when you see guys who are pissed who bought catalogue parts on a N/A build and blame summit because there motor didn't meet there expectations. That could explain why a lot of guys throw out the old LT and swapping for an LS.

Puck

iTrader: (17)

I've heard of Warren Engines a few times, and know that he does the motors for a lot of the SS guys. Hearing praise from both Gizmo and yourself come to mind.

I'm sure custom sheet metal is the ticket since everything will be tailor made for your combo, but the price difference is huge and that's hard to justify on a street car. While they do pop up used from time to time for under 1500, that kind of defeats the purpose since you're getting one that was fabbed up for someone else's motor.

Maybe if in a few years I decide to pull the tags and make my car just a strip toy to make a few bucks on the weekends I'd consider it, but as long as its just a TNT/street toy it would be hard to convince myself to spend that kind of scratch.

Amen to that.

.

Ed Wright

iTrader: (1)

Hit em up, since you have a carb, what does your results have to do with anything? We were talking about a single plane & elbow versus other intakes with EFI.

Hit em Up

iTrader: (3)

Sorry op for getting off topic! I run the morel lifters myself but not long enough to say they are good or bad!

I may have misunderstood because you "said not one single plane made more power and lost everywhere but below 5200" you didn't say Efi or carb or tb for that matter! You're right this wasn't about my results but I do have a lt1 and a single plane sooooo it's relevant in my eyes.Plus I just asked a simple question not the technical response I expected from you but instead a bunch of name dropping!! I'm out you win

quik95lt1

iTrader: (7)

i have dyno results of the single plane vs stock on my car as well as et and mph results......buttttttttt.......i cant share everything

Ed Wright

iTrader: (1)

Hit em up, I thought I mis-typed something. Went back and looked, can't find any where I posted that "not one single plane made more power......,"
I did give my dyno results. Not all ported LT1 manifolds are equal. Some guys call going in from the gasket flange and shining everything up and gasket matching "porting", guys that know what they are doing cut the top off so the taper and runner entry can be worked. Those are the biggest gains. You can not make enough improvement from the bottom to be worth the time.

As for "name dropping" I was trying to get across the kinds of shops that have worked with this, not kids with websites, working out of their garage at home evenings. These are some of the shops in the U.S. that build some of the fastest LT1s (among other engines) around. These are guys I race and talk to.

Btw, Dave Layer, who sent me to Hogan originally, had a single plane intake on his rocket at Indy. He told me part of what he did to make it faster than his Hogan, so I may chase that deal again this summer. He told me something he did that was different inside I had not thought of, or heard of before. If recommending shops that have had superior results making LT1s fly is name dropping, I apologize.

purpleflamzz

[QUOTE=Ed Wright;17115966]
I never had a single plane equipped car on my dyno that made more power than properly ported stock intakes. Not a single one.


interesting none the less as I was gonna switch to a single plane but now wonder if its the right thing. my problem I have found is that the LT4 intake being ported has removed the correct IAC path to not travel correctly to the iac runner that goes the full length of the intake an distributes the air to each cylinder,seems as its been removed
I will be repairing this soon to redo the correct IAC path.
I have a mono blade by the way.

Ed Wright

iTrader: (1)

My ported LT4 still has the IAC air passages. I can't imagine why anybody would cut that out. My heavily ported LT4 intake restricted my heads much less on my flow bench than the ported single plane. My Hogan restricts my heads less than either one.
A single plane has no IAC air passages anyway. The FAST XFI has no sequential fuel adjustments at idle anyway. Could not make corrections there anyway.

If you get a single plane intake and your engine is stock hight, my ram air hood would not shut on the Wilson elbow, and hit my cowel. NHRA SS rules wouldn't allow me to trim it. I had to use the Edelbrock elbow which cleared just fine. It is shorter vertically, and longer toward the front. I worked on an LT1 intake, experimented with a couple of things that showed a little promise. Ran about the same (no dyno) as the single plane. Almost exact same MPH. Did not 60' as well.
Gave it to a racer in Texas, sold the single plane stuff to a racer in Lousiana. Still have the LT4. Still run the Hogan.

purpleflamzz

I was gonna go carb like hit em up, but the more I investigate the more I realize the builder that built this motor may have done most of this right, he bought the LT4 intake and 227 heads together so whoever ported it removed the iac port for the monoblade to work (Bad idea).
The good thing was he machined it for a Dizzy.
guess I better hold on to this intake.
wish we had people here that could tune a LT1 but Utah is very lacking in LT tuners.
which is why i went with a EZ EFI for now. runs good but it is begging for a 200 shot.

yougotboost

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=Ed Wright;17115966]I never had a single plane equipped car on my dyno that made more power than properly ported stock intakes. Not a single one.

Rick James?

Puck

iTrader: (17)

I don't like the idea of an elbow on a single plane, but I understand being limited by rules and not allowed to cut the cowl. A carb hat and a 4bbl TB seems like it would work better then an elbow leading to an LT1 style TB, but I know a lot of classes require the TB to stay in the stock location, even if you are allowed to use ported or fabricated intakes.

Ed Wright

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=yougotboost;17120996]If he was on my dyno, I have to apologize for not remembering his name. What did my dyno show his to make?

As for the elbow, other than more plenum volume, it doesn't look right to me. Air doesn't like to turn. Look at the plenum volume in an LTX manifold. Think how many spacers you would have to stack under a 4500, etc, TB to equal that.
You would need a hood scoop or big-assed "cowl induction" hump to clear it.

Rules I run under require an in-touched stock TB, in the stock location. I have to have an elbow if I use a single plane.

Ed Wright

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=purpleflamzz;17120762]I didn't think about opening the manifold up for the mono blade. As Inmentioned, single planes have no IAC air passages anyway. FAST XFI ECUs don't allow for individual cylinder fuel corrections anyway. I have not read up on them, I don't know if the EZ XFI has that capability anyway. My regular XFI only goes to that mode when you open the throttle.

The single plane LT1s I have tuned didn't have any more cylinder-to-cylinder fueling problems, or split trims, than factory PCM cars I have tuned. I have not found the IAC passages to really be that big a deal. I always seem to have to address split trims some on modified engines. Normally not all that hard to get them equal.

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

My car ran about the same, I tried them both on a single plane.