bufmatmuslepants

iTrader: (3)

If the cam you are looking at PEAKS at 6400 you'll need to shift at 6700 for max performance. Shifting before the peak is worthless just get a smaller cam. Resize the rods for ARP bolts, $80 for the resize, $75 for the bolts, and spin it to the moon.

RedLT1Z

No, my point is I'm not building this car to compete with other people. I don't care if a LS1 has 330 horsepower or a Mustang GT has blah blah blah.

I'm looking for a fun streetable car that can be run hard on a stock bottom end reliably.

Anyways.. The build took a little turn today so I need to look at the drawing boards.

cardo0

Wow Red, thats actually a good thing u tore into it now. Sorry to read/see the damage and i know how that changes your plans. But that lifter has left metal to circulate inside the block and the engine starts to east itself. All bearing surfaces will need rework. Your past an overhaul of rings and brgs - it needs full hot tank, recondition brg surfaces and rebuild.

But it can become a lot of fun too as i said before the sbc has soo many strokes and possibilities it will make u dizzy and tired sorting them out. Im in the same situation now as u with my original engine in the cradle waiting for parts and work. Seems like i have new idea for the combination daily. But i have marked each rod and cap to number them and replace in original cyl hole.

One advantage u will have now is u can zero deck the block and nail good quench. Also u can install good quality bolts and studs. Also get a good balance too. All for very little more money than normal rebuild.

Before u tank the block remove all the plugs and the GEN II block has ball in one of the galleys that needs to come out before tanking also - most engine shops dont know this of the GEN II block. Then after machine work and cleaning that ball has to go back in - dont forget.

Thx for sharing and let us know if u have any specific questions,
cardo

BTW lifter bores can be sleeved.

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

Looks like you got screwed. I'd track down whoever sold it to you and start demanding some compensation. Now everything you know about this motor could be complete BS. Does it really have 60k miles? Is that really a hotcam? The cam is trashed anyway if it was run with a broken lifter.

I think it's a lost cause unless you can verify the mileage. There's a vin derivative stamped into the block which will allow you to find a history report and rough idea of mileage. The issue is you need to know more details about the car it came from and the check digit in the full 17 digit vin.

warriorcustoms

iTrader: (10)

Its not a total loss!!! You can bush the lifter bores & may even be able to run a larger BBC roller lifter... Im not a Machinist so ya might wanna ask... He wanted a new cam anyway!!! He just cant sell any of those parts now... IF the crank is shot do a 383 forged crank & 5.7 forged stroker rods... Run a 23x @ .05 AI Cam & Heads pkg and youll have a FUN street motor!!!
I bought a 4bolt main 350 sbc out of a van one time that had a BIG hole in a cylinder!!! The Machine Shop sleeved it & with the Sportsman II heads I had it made 498hp on an engine dyno & last dude I gave the shortblock to was runnin it in a street stock class on the dirt!!! Hell some dudes bush the lifter bores if theyre good!!!
A used Motor & trans is Always a Gamble Unless you really know a person!!! You bought it Its your Baby!!! Bet the Guy didnt give a 30 day warranty LoL For that fact Most places dont warranty Race Motors...
Next ime take a tool bag & turn it over!!! Lesson Learned...
My 2 cents take it or leave it.... As far as Milage goes on an LTx block... My LT1 355 build coulda just been honed & rebuilt instead of doin 6" Manley H-beams & Mahle forged flat tops on a 150k block!!! My LT4 block for My 396 build is the same at unknown milage!!! His may vary... LTx blocks wear Great.....

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

The crank doesn't really resemble any of the stock LT1 cranks I've dealt with. The casting number should be 14088526 and the weights are usually rougher without that knife edge sort of look. Then again, I've only dealt with cranks from factory cars and not from "crate" motors. I would verify that it's the right one and not some cheap cast piece. Those rods look like the stock PM ones and the pistons look like stock Mahles.

The price of building this motor up into something useable will definitely outweigh the price of a stock/untouched b-body shortblock with low miles. You could easily swap a cam and slap some heads on.

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

Where the hell is the windage tray??? Does the crate motor not come with one? And some of the fasteners on the mains have different shaped heads, seems strange.

cardo0

Hoo ho, Bubba been there. I can read a white marker 6 on cyl #3 rod and cap. Well at least cyl #7 is marked correctly. But the close ups show 8 on cyl #6 rod and cap then cyl #1 rod and cap are marked 5.

Well i feel for your loss here and i just had to laugh at what Bubba left u. Actually i apologize i didnt see that before.

Yeah, u will need to start over on that one - recondition all the rods and etc. But it may have already been bored so cyl wall thickness a question. If u plan to reuse then have it sonic tested before boring.

Hope u didnt spend much for that engine,
cardo

bufmatmuslepants

iTrader: (3)

Really sorry for your turn of events. Definately go back on that seller, demand compensation or a return, that's bullshit there's no way that lifter wasn't making noise.

I'm also curious about that crank, and what other parts are in there. Check those valvesprings, maybe they are factory since you said factory rockers so maybe 60k miles of them on a bigger cam helped ruin that lifter.

ahritchie

iTrader: (1)

Ouch, that sucks...let me guess; this was a craigslist purchase? Lot's of scammers and ignorant jackasses trying to unload and call it a "Vette motor" lol. I'd go to the junkyard and get a $450 4.8-5.3 LS truck motor, then slap a ebay turbo on it and/or a big *** cam and call it good!

RedLT1Z

So to clear a few things up:

• Yes, the motor was purchased through an internet ad, obviously not this site.
• The motor was a good deal. It was a complete pull from intake to oil pan. Wiring harness, alternator, starter, waterpump, opti, etc. were all included for a few hundred bucks. Worst case scenario I should break even parting it out.
• My guess is the damage was caused by running the hotcam with stock rockers/valvesprings. I have a receipt from both the motor and cam install at 120k miles in a '95 Trans Am and was told the motor had 60k miles on it. It has an AC Delco stamp on the block so it was a crate motor.
• For the price I paid, I assumed the motor may need a more complete rebuild. I wasn't going to pay a bunch for a used motor that I hadn't looked inside.
• The cam hasn't been pulled yet but it will be trashed or used for a camshaft lamp. I know the cam is too damaged to be re-used (plan was to sell it before I saw the lifter damage)

As far as build goes. I planned on replacing the lifters, valve springs, push rods, etc anyways. The block will need to go to the shop for R&R. I assume cam bearings will need to be replaced as well. What about the bottom end? Am I safe to re-use the crank/pistons/rods? Since I'll have to pull them out I assume I'll want to get new crank bearings and re-ring my pistons.

Any advice is always appreciated. Trying to do it cheap but also want to do it right and not put a ticking time bomb into my car.

cardo0

As far as build goes. I planned on replacing the lifters, valve springs, push rods, etc anyways. The block will need to go to the shop for R&R. I assume cam bearings will need to be replaced as well. What about the bottom end? Am I safe to re-use the crank/pistons/rods? Since I'll have to pull them out I assume I'll want to get new crank bearings and re-ring my pistons.

Any advice is always appreciated. Trying to do it cheap but also want to do it right and not put a ticking time bomb into my car.


One step at time. Disassemble block first. Get the bores checked - ultrasonic measured. If can use block - more than likely bore to 0.040" - remove all brgs/plugs and that check ball i mentioned. Have the block hot tanked or at least cleaned by a shop. If u need to save money and not worried so much for performance u just get the block bored/honed without honing/boring plates - millions of engines were produced without boring/honing plates. I guess what im saying is price shop the machine shops. Sometimes better to split the work with different shops to get what u want or lowest price. Most shops only want to do the operations that they can do and charge u for eveything they can do. I dont like align honing on a budget motor - it makes little sense. U can usually locate a virgin block for less than the cost of align hone and align honing loosens the timing chain set anyways.

Find auto machine shop that can polish/cut your crank and recon your rods - they should tell u if good enough to reuse but they will have to be inspected. Ya know chevy rods are pretty plentiful and if needed on a budget u can always use older pink rods or even the plane jane chevy rods from pre '86 - should not be an issue finding sbc rods. Now 1 piece seal cranks are plenty too and some '87 camaros and trucks had forged 1pc rms cranks - dont be afraid to call your local bone yard if u need a crank.

Most any shop can rebuild your heads - just get a good 3 angle vlv job with good springs and seals - $200-$400 maybe $500.

That should be enough for now and let us know when u have specific questions,
cardo

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-CRANKSHAFT-14088526-MERCRUISER-1987-5-7L-350-INBOARD-STERNDRIVE-798-/380884557088?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item58ae7d1d20&vxp=mtr
So maybe the 14088526 crank is machined more for crate and marine motors? It has the right casting number but doesn't look like any of the 526 cranks I've seen in person.

All of those lifters are trash. When a valve spring floats the lifter will skip or jump down the cam lobe and damage the roller. All of those lobes are probably going to be worn if that cam was run with stock valvetrain parts.

.040 is unnecessary for an untouched block. You will have more piston choices and a safe wall thickness with .030. Most will tell you to bore the least amount possible but .030 is the most common and budget friendly.

The powdered metal rods will stand up to what you're going for. The biggest weakness is those rod bolts but by the time you spend all of that money in bolts and reconditioning you could have bought a set of stronger new 4340 I-beams with ARP bolts already in them.

If the motor really has 60k then the PTW and out of roundness should still be in spec assuming the motor wasn't seriously abused or starved of oil. I doubt you'll need a bore or hone. More material coming off of the bores with the same sized pistons = more PTW, slap, etc.

Boring/honing without torque plates is a bad idea if you're building a motor for performance. Bores will distort with the heads installed. I would only cut corners like that if the motor was going into a cheap beater.

The forged crank he's referencing can be found in some heavy duty Vortec trucks, the LT5, some L98 vettes (no f-bodies), and some GM crate motors like the ZZ4. The casting number is 14088532. It's overkill for your build. Spend money elsewhere.

I still think you're wasting time and money on this engine when there are perfectly good, gently used b-body LT1 shortblocks out there for dirt cheap. Right now it seems like you're falling in love with a stripper. You should really move on before she eats your wallet.

cardo0

Untouched block? With different crank and wrongly marked rods?? Not a chance. More likely the already bored once since that sale pitch of only 60k mi is no longer valid.

If u are really tight budget then u should realize far more stock blocks were produced without torque plates than with them. In fact its very likely all the stock LT1 blocks where not machined with torque plates. Someone says that machining w/o torque plates is a bad idea dosnt know how production blocks are made and is full of hearsay and hipe. Torque plate boring/honing is an enhancement for performance. Stock engines are designed with enough clearance to run well without. Bottom line is if need to save that money then dont worry about torque plate honing unless u can afford it.

Lots of sbc chevy parts out there and dont be surprised if u find a recon'd set of 5.7 rods with good ARP bolts in them for garage sale prices. Just gott'a keep looking.

Plenty of used 1pc rms cranks:
forgings - #14088552 (86& up), #14088532 (86-88 trucks), but FYI the crankshaft #14096036 is the ZZ3 while ZZ4/GMPP replacement is 12556307 (not the 14088532).
cast - #14088535 (86-88 trucks, 87-88 camaro, vette), #14088526 (86-89 trucks, 87-89 camaro, vette) both are also a 305 crank and needs to be identified from the 350 crank of same number - u will need to know which engine they came out of (look for the forged cranks and you'll be alright).

Just as easy to buy another loser LT1 unless u can hear it run or open for inspection. But that block maybe worthless now. So dissemble it and see what your favorite machine shop says/can do. Also keep shopping for a good used motor and or parts.

Hope this helps,
cardo

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

Look at the link I posted. The crank might be a later version or just a different type but the casting number is the same. If it's anything like the factory 526 crank then it's tough as nails. A forged crank with a stock stroke h/c car is a waste of money. The stock crank will suffice.

Those look like regular PM rods. Nothing wrong there but bolt strength.

The only way to find out about those pistons is to measure them. They're probably stock in that crate motor.

He's building this motor for performance, not a goddamn beater. If you're going to build your car do it right with a torque plate. Otherwise, just buy another shortblock and don't touch it.

There are a lot of morons out there who don't know how to modify a car properly and pay the price. ANYTHING that has been opened up or touched by someone should be subject to tons of scrutiny. You're looking a prime example of a shitty shop neglecting what could have been a useable cammed motor. They paid the price for their ignorance and now the OP is suffering.

I'd take my chances with a motor from a Roadmaster, Fleetwood, or non police Caprice over an engine from a performance car any day. Grandma isn't going to flog the LT1 in her boat nearly as much as some punk *** kids or someone living out their midlife crisis by having a shop modify it the wrong way.

cardo0

No, my point is I'm not building this car to compete with other people. I don't care if a LS1 has 330 horsepower or a Mustang GT has blah blah blah.

I'm looking for a fun streetable car that can be run hard on a stock bottom end reliably.

Any advice is always appreciated. Trying to do it cheap but also want to do it right and not put a ticking time bomb into my car.


So no, hes building this motor for reliability, not for performance - someone cant read. Someone cant read i suggested used forged cranks if he needs one - not that he has to buy one DUH! Someone has never bought parts at the pick yer own boneyard where cranks are all the same price. And my advice for rods is to buy at least recond rods with good bolts or better rods if he can find them. There are plenty of morons that know how to spend others money on expensive parts and machine work. It takes a lot more knowledge and experience to build a reliable motor cheaply - saving money. Buying a used motor is as risky as this last bum engine while building one u will know whats inside.

Any 90s motor will have high mileage by now - unless something is wrong with it. What advice is buying another used motor due to fall apart? That would be an option to sell the car, not for a daily driver. So a stock block hoping that its from a grampa driver knowing that it doesnt have strong rod bolts and was never torque plate honed is supposed be good advice for a performance motor??? Not! Thats more double talk. More cat crap! That advice is asking for a repeat experience here.

Much better to source a local engine rebuild shop with a parts list and get a warranty on the short block. Many shops will even give u the shop tour and stand behind their work. I remember the shop that cleaned and bored my Pontiac GTO block was ready to R&R the motor for me to fix a leaking freeze plug they installed even though i rebuilt the motor - but it sealed itself after a few heat cycles. Its a good thing to learn the better shops from sourcing out local machine work.

Problem is Red may have a bad block now and it needs inspection to make decisions.

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

The motor is about to receive and AI top end package, something a stock bottom end will hold easily for a long time. The biggest threat to a stock bottom with a moderate cam like that would be bearing failure from high RPM. I'd swap the oil pump relief spring to something higher than 58 psi or even have the motor freshened depending on mileage. Either way, the stock shortblock will take it reliably.

It's not that hard to get a used motor with low mileage out of a totaled car. You cross reference the original 17 digit VIN to the 10 digit derivative stamped on the side of the block and run a vehicle history report. You can usually find out if the seller is lying pretty quickly if the proper records have been kept (depends on state). If there are no records then don't buy it. Any motor that has been modified in some way or another is something you'd want to stay away from. The problem with the motor the OP picked up in became apparent upon realizing that none of the valvetrain parts had been upgraded to support the larger cam. You get burned when you buy someone's mistakes, not a bone stock takeout. It's really not that risky.

There's a reason they call it the junkyard. GM mainly put forged crankshafts in their 2500 and 3500 series work trucks/vans and some Corvettes. Being that no Corvette is ever going to make it into a pick-a-part yard with the engine still intact, you're limited to fleet and service vehicles. I don't know if you've ever been into one of those yards, but finding a low mileage motor with a forged crank in a yard is COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC. All of those vehicles have been flogged like rental cars every single day for as many miles as they have. Anything you find will have to be inspected thoroughly and ground which is a colossal waste of time for a simple H/C build.

Regardless, the stock LT1 crank is tough as nails and will suffice at power levels much higher than an average H/C LT1, your suggestion is crap. Don't even bring this **** up if it's completely irrelevant towards the OP's goal. I know what you said and I'm telling you to stop being so defensive. If you offered some worthy advice then maybe you wouldn't be heckled as much.

IF the OP is intent on opening up the motor and getting having everything rebuilt then do it right the first time. If you're going that far with it then go for the full monty. If not, it's a waste of time. IMO investing that much in a simple H/C motor seems like wasted potential.

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

And it seems like most small time engine rebuilders are complete hacks who go by feel or plastigage alone. I don't care what wonderful warranty they have. If they're not experienced builders with the right tooling and patience for your low horsepower build then you're going to end up with a steaming pile of a motor and a hole in your wallet.

cardo0

And it seems like most small time engine rebuilders are complete hacks who go by feel or plastigage alone. I don't care what wonderful warranty they have. If they're not experienced builders with the right tooling and patience for your low horsepower build then you're going to end up with a steaming pile of a motor and a hole in your wallet.

So your now calling all engine builders hacks. What an assumption. And how many engines have u rebuilt? 1 or 2? Just because there are some bad shops out there and some do prey on the performance enthusiast doesnt mean u cant find several local that are very good at engine rebuilding. As some shops make their living by maintain fleets of vehicles for other businesses and would not stay in business long without good workmanship. So your accusation is just more hyper hypocrisy cat poop.


GM mainly put forged crankshafts in their 2500 and 3500 series work trucks/vans and some Corvettes. Being that no Corvette is ever going to make it into a pick-a-part yard with the engine still intact, you're limited to fleet and service vehicles. I don't know if you've ever been into one of those yards, but finding a low mileage motor with a forged crank in a yard is COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC.


Again u cant read as i posted the forged cranks were in camaros also. But u are right the chance of finding low mileage parts in the boneyard is low but u wont admit finding a low mileage B-body engine is just as difficult either - so more of your hypocrisy verbiage. Just because he can cross the VIN doesnt mean he will ever find one let alone find it locally.


IF the OP is intent on opening up the motor and getting having everything rebuilt then do it right the first time. If you're going that far with it then go for the full monty. If not, it's a waste of time. IMO investing that much in a simple H/C motor seems like wasted potential.

But again u fail to read and comprehend again thats not what the OP wants to do. He wants a reliable DD - not the full monty!

Catmaigne

iTrader: (6)

I think you need a lesson in reading comprehension.

1. I said SMALL TIME engine rebuilders. Someone with a real reputation is going to cost big bucks. There are even some "premiere" shops in my area that I won't go to from what I've seen. I wouldn't trust anyone but the best when it comes to clearances up to a ten-thousandth.

There's also a much smaller margin for error when it comes to performance motor. We're not talking about some work van with a 4.5k redline so READ THE THREAD. The OP is looking at a H/C kit from AI that will probably entail a redline not too far from 7k. Too tight clearances will mean increased bearing temp, decreased oil flow, and metal to metal contact resulting in a spun bearing.

2. Never heard of any forged 1 piece RMS cranks being used in Camaros. I did hear of them being in 3500 series trucks with 5.7 vortec motors. I ripped one out at a yard near me in hopes there would be the 532 crank inside but it wasn't there. 4 bolt mains and a 526 crank -- same as LT1. What a waste of time and effort.

Have you ever been in a junkyard? They're littered with b-bodies. Caprices, Roadmaster, and Fleetwoods are everywhere. I snagged one out of a Roadmaster wagon for $170 with 80k on it a while back. Pan to intake with harness and pcm.

Even if you don't find a low mile one in the pick-a-part, you can always resort to the junkyard search @ car-part.com. I grabbed another LT1 with 76k on it for $300 and didn't have to do a single thing. They pulled it for me.

3. Stop name calling dude. I'm stating the obvious.