LT1 tuning help
08-09-2014, 12:28 PM
#23
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To use Tuner Pro RT for loading the tune you'll need WinFlash from TunerCATS. It's $20.
I assumed you had a way to load the tune since you had a mail order tune done and you have the cable and all to data log with. You were able to pull the tune from the ECM?
I use Tuner CAT to pull and load tunes to the ECM. But Tuner Pro RT for everything else. If you go to the Tuner Pro website it'll tell you how to download everything you need from them to get going.
I see you were able to get Tuner Pro RT and load the XDF file from Steveo and look things over. Those definitions he filled out really help with tuning.
When you got your IAC counts to 42 by adjusting the TB blades, did the BLM split go away or get better?
I assumed you had a way to load the tune since you had a mail order tune done and you have the cable and all to data log with. You were able to pull the tune from the ECM?
I use Tuner CAT to pull and load tunes to the ECM. But Tuner Pro RT for everything else. If you go to the Tuner Pro website it'll tell you how to download everything you need from them to get going.
I see you were able to get Tuner Pro RT and load the XDF file from Steveo and look things over. Those definitions he filled out really help with tuning.
When you got your IAC counts to 42 by adjusting the TB blades, did the BLM split go away or get better?
08-10-2014, 12:34 PM
#24
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I have WinFlash. It is better but could not drive it due to a pregnant lower rad hose, lucky I saw that before I went for a long drive. Will log it after the hoses come in.
08-10-2014, 12:37 PM
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Still at idle the LH LT is perfect at 128 and RH is maybe 121-122 so its closer but will have to see when I drive it. Also looking at the O2's in open loop is useless because the air pump is running
08-10-2014, 12:47 PM
#26
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Now with the TB blades where they should be, you can adjust the individual injector trims at 0% TPS. Using an IR thermometer (Harbor Frieght has these cheap) on each cylinder exhaust tube, monitor the temps. You are looking for exhaust temps higher than the rest. So monitor all 8 exhaust tube temps, then note the hot ones on the drivers side. Go to the corresponding injector on the Individual Injector Trim at 0% TPS and adjust it slightly (5% or so) to add fuel. Keep doing this until the temps are as close as possible AND the BLM's are reading 128. Note, the exhaust temps will not be exactly equal. This will only adjust your injector trims at 0% TPS and idle.
08-10-2014, 07:36 PM
#28
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08-10-2014, 08:32 PM
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Pulled no.8 plug out and is not bad, pretty clean but slightly rich. Once I change the rad hoses and get it running should I switch the O2's side to side and see if the BLM's change? Well have to see how they are at cruise first I guess.
08-10-2014, 09:01 PM
#30
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Your data log also suggests you are rich at cruise and light throttle conditions. I couldn't tell you about WOT without a Dyno and a wideband O2 or possibly blowing your engine using an alternative method. But the spark plugs say you are lean at WOT.
So I'd pull fuel in all BLM cells needed per your data log according to the methods in the two links I provided earlier. Then increase the PE AFR's per the two tables provided (PE AFR Correction vs RPM and PE AFR Correction vs Coolant temp) until the spark plugs read the right color. I'd also adjust timing until I see no knock and the spark plugs read correct.
08-10-2014, 10:03 PM
#32
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Yes. That is what it means. Left and right are from the drivers seated position. So looking forward from the back of the vehicle. Left is drivers is bank 1. Right is passengers is bank 2.
Then from there you count from the front of the car back. Drivers pre-cat O2 on OBD2 cars would be Bank 1 Sensor 1, passengers post-cat O2 on and ODB2 car would be bank 2 sensor 2 etc.
08-10-2014, 11:01 PM
#33
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I got your e-mail.
Looking at your tune, he got you pretty close without even seeing the car or any data logs, that's impressive. From here it's just fine tuning.
Your VE tables look about right for your cam and heads, but you won't know for sure until you disconnect your MAF and data log it. Disconnecting your MAF will force the ECM into SD mode (it'll use the VE tables instead of the MAF for fueling needs). In this mode you'll eliminate the MAF from making any adjustments to your fueling while you dial in your VE tables.
This takes time, it took me two weeks, logging and adjusting 2 times a day (to and from work).
Basic steps are, disconnect the MAF and leave it disconnected (you can have the ECM ignore this by deselecting Error code 48 in Tuner Pro RT under the "Error Checking" file and reloading the tune).
Then data log the car and adjust each BLM cell (these are explained in the two links I provided previously) per the data log BLM readings - BLM readings divided by 128 (or the average of the two if they are split). So if you are getting 122 in cell 10 then you'd take 122/128 = .953. Then you'd go to your VE table and find the corresponding cells that BLM Cell 10 encompasses (in this example it'll be kPa 50-80 and rpms 1200 to 2000) and multiply that by .953. If the BLM reading was 130 then you do the exact same thing; 130/128=1.0156 so BLM Cell 10 *1.0156.
You'll do this over and over again until all BLM's in all cells are reading 128.
What makes this method hard is that in PE mode the engine no longer records BLMs, I managed a way around this in a method that is highly NOT recommended. And that is by turning off PE mode and data logging the engine with the stock narrow band O2's and tuning the car to 128 BLMs in all cells. Then I reengaged the PE mode and adjusted my PE tables accordingly.
The correct and safe way to do this is with a wide band O2 at a minimum and a wide band O2 on a dyno at best.
That being said, tuning for a perfect VE table without PE mode is not necessary either as AFR can be adjusted with the PE tables too. But even then a wide band and dyno is recommended.
If using my method, I'd pull timing across the board until I see no knock retard. I'm seeing lean WOT conditions on your spark plugs and knock retard on your data logs at WOT.
Then tune the lower kPa's and rpm's BLM cells for the daily commute and keep it light on the throttle (try to stay out of PE mode). Then to finish up the PE tune, take it to the track for a test and tune night, that's what they are for.
Or you could just rent out a dyno for a couple hours, for PE tune.
It seems like a lot to learn, but it's mostly just learning all the tables and how they run the engine. Knowing how an internal combustion reciprocating engine works is the hardest part of tuning. Actually tuning the car is mostly just learning the program and how the tables adjust the engine for you.
Ohh yeah, once you get the VE tables dialed in you'll reconnect the MAF and do the same thing all over again, but this time do NOT touch the VE tables. Instead you'll do it to the MAF calibration tables (honestly these shouldn't need touched and I think the data log will show this once the VE tables are dialed in).
Looking at your tune, he got you pretty close without even seeing the car or any data logs, that's impressive. From here it's just fine tuning.
Your VE tables look about right for your cam and heads, but you won't know for sure until you disconnect your MAF and data log it. Disconnecting your MAF will force the ECM into SD mode (it'll use the VE tables instead of the MAF for fueling needs). In this mode you'll eliminate the MAF from making any adjustments to your fueling while you dial in your VE tables.
This takes time, it took me two weeks, logging and adjusting 2 times a day (to and from work).
Basic steps are, disconnect the MAF and leave it disconnected (you can have the ECM ignore this by deselecting Error code 48 in Tuner Pro RT under the "Error Checking" file and reloading the tune).
Then data log the car and adjust each BLM cell (these are explained in the two links I provided previously) per the data log BLM readings - BLM readings divided by 128 (or the average of the two if they are split). So if you are getting 122 in cell 10 then you'd take 122/128 = .953. Then you'd go to your VE table and find the corresponding cells that BLM Cell 10 encompasses (in this example it'll be kPa 50-80 and rpms 1200 to 2000) and multiply that by .953. If the BLM reading was 130 then you do the exact same thing; 130/128=1.0156 so BLM Cell 10 *1.0156.
You'll do this over and over again until all BLM's in all cells are reading 128.
What makes this method hard is that in PE mode the engine no longer records BLMs, I managed a way around this in a method that is highly NOT recommended. And that is by turning off PE mode and data logging the engine with the stock narrow band O2's and tuning the car to 128 BLMs in all cells. Then I reengaged the PE mode and adjusted my PE tables accordingly.
The correct and safe way to do this is with a wide band O2 at a minimum and a wide band O2 on a dyno at best.
That being said, tuning for a perfect VE table without PE mode is not necessary either as AFR can be adjusted with the PE tables too. But even then a wide band and dyno is recommended.
If using my method, I'd pull timing across the board until I see no knock retard. I'm seeing lean WOT conditions on your spark plugs and knock retard on your data logs at WOT.
Then tune the lower kPa's and rpm's BLM cells for the daily commute and keep it light on the throttle (try to stay out of PE mode). Then to finish up the PE tune, take it to the track for a test and tune night, that's what they are for.
Or you could just rent out a dyno for a couple hours, for PE tune.
It seems like a lot to learn, but it's mostly just learning all the tables and how they run the engine. Knowing how an internal combustion reciprocating engine works is the hardest part of tuning. Actually tuning the car is mostly just learning the program and how the tables adjust the engine for you.
Ohh yeah, once you get the VE tables dialed in you'll reconnect the MAF and do the same thing all over again, but this time do NOT touch the VE tables. Instead you'll do it to the MAF calibration tables (honestly these shouldn't need touched and I think the data log will show this once the VE tables are dialed in).
08-11-2014, 02:23 PM
#34
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I got your e-mail.
Looking at your tune, he got you pretty close without even seeing the car or any data logs, that's impressive. From here it's just fine tuning.
Your VE tables look about right for your cam and heads, but you won't know for sure until you disconnect your MAF and data log it. Disconnecting your MAF will force the ECM into SD mode (it'll use the VE tables instead of the MAF for fueling needs). In this mode you'll eliminate the MAF from making any adjustments to your fueling while you dial in your VE tables.
This takes time, it took me two weeks, logging and adjusting 2 times a day (to and from work).
Basic steps are, disconnect the MAF and leave it disconnected (you can have the ECM ignore this by deselecting Error code 48 in Tuner Pro RT under the "Error Checking" file and reloading the tune).
Then data log the car and adjust each BLM cell (these are explained in the two links I provided previously) per the data log BLM readings - BLM readings divided by 128 (or the average of the two if they are split). So if you are getting 122 in cell 10 then you'd take 122/128 = .953. Then you'd go to your VE table and find the corresponding cells that BLM Cell 10 encompasses (in this example it'll be kPa 50-80 and rpms 1200 to 2000) and multiply that by .953. If the BLM reading was 130 then you do the exact same thing; 130/128=1.0156 so BLM Cell 10 *1.0156.
You'll do this over and over again until all BLM's in all cells are reading 128.
What makes this method hard is that in PE mode the engine no longer records BLMs, I managed a way around this in a method that is highly NOT recommended. And that is by turning off PE mode and data logging the engine with the stock narrow band O2's and tuning the car to 128 BLMs in all cells. Then I reengaged the PE mode and adjusted my PE tables accordingly.
The correct and safe way to do this is with a wide band O2 at a minimum and a wide band O2 on a dyno at best.
That being said, tuning for a perfect VE table without PE mode is not necessary either as AFR can be adjusted with the PE tables too. But even then a wide band and dyno is recommended.
If using my method, I'd pull timing across the board until I see no knock retard. I'm seeing lean WOT conditions on your spark plugs and knock retard on your data logs at WOT.
Then tune the lower kPa's and rpm's BLM cells for the daily commute and keep it light on the throttle (try to stay out of PE mode). Then to finish up the PE tune, take it to the track for a test and tune night, that's what they are for.
Or you could just rent out a dyno for a couple hours, for PE tune.
It seems like a lot to learn, but it's mostly just learning all the tables and how they run the engine. Knowing how an internal combustion reciprocating engine works is the hardest part of tuning. Actually tuning the car is mostly just learning the program and how the tables adjust the engine for you.
Ohh yeah, once you get the VE tables dialed in you'll reconnect the MAF and do the same thing all over again, but this time do NOT touch the VE tables. Instead you'll do it to the MAF calibration tables (honestly these shouldn't need touched and I think the data log will show this once the VE tables are dialed in).
Looking at your tune, he got you pretty close without even seeing the car or any data logs, that's impressive. From here it's just fine tuning.
Your VE tables look about right for your cam and heads, but you won't know for sure until you disconnect your MAF and data log it. Disconnecting your MAF will force the ECM into SD mode (it'll use the VE tables instead of the MAF for fueling needs). In this mode you'll eliminate the MAF from making any adjustments to your fueling while you dial in your VE tables.
This takes time, it took me two weeks, logging and adjusting 2 times a day (to and from work).
Basic steps are, disconnect the MAF and leave it disconnected (you can have the ECM ignore this by deselecting Error code 48 in Tuner Pro RT under the "Error Checking" file and reloading the tune).
Then data log the car and adjust each BLM cell (these are explained in the two links I provided previously) per the data log BLM readings - BLM readings divided by 128 (or the average of the two if they are split). So if you are getting 122 in cell 10 then you'd take 122/128 = .953. Then you'd go to your VE table and find the corresponding cells that BLM Cell 10 encompasses (in this example it'll be kPa 50-80 and rpms 1200 to 2000) and multiply that by .953. If the BLM reading was 130 then you do the exact same thing; 130/128=1.0156 so BLM Cell 10 *1.0156.
You'll do this over and over again until all BLM's in all cells are reading 128.
What makes this method hard is that in PE mode the engine no longer records BLMs, I managed a way around this in a method that is highly NOT recommended. And that is by turning off PE mode and data logging the engine with the stock narrow band O2's and tuning the car to 128 BLMs in all cells. Then I reengaged the PE mode and adjusted my PE tables accordingly.
The correct and safe way to do this is with a wide band O2 at a minimum and a wide band O2 on a dyno at best.
That being said, tuning for a perfect VE table without PE mode is not necessary either as AFR can be adjusted with the PE tables too. But even then a wide band and dyno is recommended.
If using my method, I'd pull timing across the board until I see no knock retard. I'm seeing lean WOT conditions on your spark plugs and knock retard on your data logs at WOT.
Then tune the lower kPa's and rpm's BLM cells for the daily commute and keep it light on the throttle (try to stay out of PE mode). Then to finish up the PE tune, take it to the track for a test and tune night, that's what they are for.
Or you could just rent out a dyno for a couple hours, for PE tune.
It seems like a lot to learn, but it's mostly just learning all the tables and how they run the engine. Knowing how an internal combustion reciprocating engine works is the hardest part of tuning. Actually tuning the car is mostly just learning the program and how the tables adjust the engine for you.
Ohh yeah, once you get the VE tables dialed in you'll reconnect the MAF and do the same thing all over again, but this time do NOT touch the VE tables. Instead you'll do it to the MAF calibration tables (honestly these shouldn't need touched and I think the data log will show this once the VE tables are dialed in).
08-11-2014, 08:05 PM
#35
TECH Addict
Here's a stock primary VE table for a 1994 LT1 compared to mine.
And the extended Table compared
Note, my extended VE tables still aren't fueling correctly. My VE over 70kPA from 4K-5.5K is over 100% and my tuning program won't let me go over 100% VE. Ugh. I adjusted fueling for that on my PE tables as at those rpms and kPa I'd be in PE mode anyway.As you can see they differ significantly. And when my stock VE tables kicked in to fuel my engine after I lost an O2 (literally blew out of the collector), I found out that it simply didn't work.
The MAF is the primary source for fueling when it's connected and used. But the VE tables ARE referenced in the ECM for fueling in some conditions (like sudden WOT in MAF mode the VE tables are used partially and temporarily). The exact algorithm is unknown to me as adjusting my VE tables made my cam very drivable under 2K in MAF mode when it previously wasn't, but for others this made no difference.
Also, since changing my VE tables my MAF calibration tables have been returned to stock and work flawlessly there.
Last edited by hrcslam; 08-12-2014 at 12:06 PM.
08-12-2014, 11:03 PM
#37
TECH Addict
I looked at your data log. It still looks the same. Get a spark tester on it and see what that says. An actual spark tester will put a load on it vs just pulling a plug and watching it spark. If there's a weak spark you know he's right, if not, look else where.
It's definitely running rich cruising around. Looking at your VE tables, they look really close for what you should have with that cam on that engine.
What injectors do you have? Stock? Also, what is your compression ratio?
Also, you could try unplugging the MAF (you'll get a SES light, ignore it) and data log that driving around. If the BLMs get better, then it's time to re-calibrate the MAF.
It's definitely running rich cruising around. Looking at your VE tables, they look really close for what you should have with that cam on that engine.
What injectors do you have? Stock? Also, what is your compression ratio?
Also, you could try unplugging the MAF (you'll get a SES light, ignore it) and data log that driving around. If the BLMs get better, then it's time to re-calibrate the MAF.
08-13-2014, 06:48 AM
#38
There are several ways to tune A/F, PE, VE, MAF, IFR,MAP, combinations of each, is one way better than the other? who is to say it is. Tune to the way you are use to, or what you engine likes, I have tune via several different ways and I cant tell you one is better than the other, I have checked fueling in NA and in my Forced Inducted set up and can tell you my AF is always spot on..Others will say PE is the wrong way, maf is wrong ect, did they invent the software?
08-13-2014, 08:44 AM
#39
I'll throw my .02 cents in and say that I have never touched the MAF and my AFR is good throughout all ranges. I have tried that method but did not like it and if you think about how it works there really isn't a need to. Just make sure ALL mechanical and electrical issues are correct first. You don't want to tune around something like that.
08-13-2014, 01:30 PM
#40
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reading spark plugs is all relative. as in what you see by looking at the plug is only telling you what the engine was doing right before you turned it off. Now there are some things like aluminum particles on the ground strap that might tell you a history but all in all only tells right before. For every situation the plugs have to be pulled to determine what is going on at that specific situation ie: WOT, idle, cruise.