65.4% of the time, its always the opti

 

The LT1 MWP drive system is actually more efficient and less complex than a traditional belt drive system. It sucks to work on, but from an engineering stand point it's great. ALL water pumps have issues, EVERYTHING with a moving part has issues. The spline drive system is actually the preferred method of accessory drive in Aviation. Maybe we should tell all those idiots to switch over to electric driven accessories stat!


Your reading comprehension levels are amazing! My 6 year old understands things better than you. Where in this ENTIRE thread did I state the EWP will OVERHEAT at highway speed and 80°F ambient? Never happened. You can't even comprehend simple differences, how in the world am I supposed to expect you to understand more detailed differences.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. Where do you think the battery gets its reserve power from? How efficient to you think that process is? This is just, umm, wow. I'm about to give up on you. I seriously don't think you have the capacity to understand such simple facts as to not confuse them with opinion when used in conversation (which you have done repeatedly in this thread). You certainly haven't a clue on how a battery powers an EWP with the engine off (hint: it uses stored energy from the previously running engine, with an efficiency that is even WORSE than when the engine was running); you'll probably argue against that fact too........ and think it's my opinion.


Words of advise you should heed yourself..........

Oh and the more complex, less capable part is fact.

Your experience has been entirely opposite of what the internet claims........ How does that not make YOU the outlier?

BTW, most things I've read on the internet show that in your application you are NOT the opposite. You are exactly like everyone else in your application, physics has a weird thing about that.

Ahhh, there it is. Starting to admit it a little huh? Except the whole "excessive flow" part (which means you really need to understand flow vs pressure and it's effect on cooling, well that and the heat transfer rates -excessive flow to diminish cooling would have to be incredibly fast, like faster than the radiator can handle the associated pressure fast), you are actually starting to get what I've been saying all along. Especially the bolded part.


No, my application is not a worn drive spline. That is not an APPLICATION, that is a discrepancy/squawk/fault/issue/etc. A broken or worn part is a CONDITION of said part not an APPLICATION.

An EWP wouldn't keep up with my cooling needs in my APPLICATION (the ACTION of putting something into operation). It's that simple, no "for the win" here for the EWP.


The cam driven sprocket is prone to failure? So, 20+ year old cars have parts wearing out on them and the spline drive is prone to failure? Seriously? Seals fail electric or manual, no way around that.

If you are "destroying" Opti's from a little coolant leak, the Opti was the issue. I think many people tend to forget the Opti's see far more moisture and water than what a little coolant leak can give it. You know, like from rain and standing water? I've replaced my stock (160K miles and 20 year old) spline drive coupler once, can't say the same for any belt drive. **** I've replaced my serpentine belt 3 times in the last 10K miles! My Power steering pump broke off -literally- (replace 2 years before that), my alternator chucked the pulley (also replace 2 years before that), and my AC pulley snapped in half (1 year old). All within the last year! So far the water pump has gone, by far, the longest; especially that spline drive.

And it wasn't actually the spline drive it's self either, it was the coupler.

The commonality of the weep hole "destroying" an Opti, well, isn't. The general reaction to people having Opti issues and trashing their good (but dirty) Opti is very common though. All that needs to happen in the scenario? Clean it and re-install it. It does suck, but I haven't lost an Opti to oil leaks or coolant leaks yet (and yes, I've had both on the Opti and oil in it).

Get with the times? If that were the case more things would be spline driven as they do in Aviation.

 

It's all good, I'm just rustlin' your jimmies!

 

I know, I have to respond though. Shooting for 50 pages of repeated nonsense!

 

I've answered this already. This is not a straight forward answer. I can't say XXspeed and XXambient conditions because every single component and condition is variable minus the only steady we know (the water pump; and even then we don't know the exact GPM and pressure it flows at only a close guess). Speed is less an issue than RPM and no speed.

It's less about speed than it is about power output (read: BTU's of heat) and the effective cooling of the cooling system to remove that heat. Which again, is based on ambient conditions (OAT, ground temps, humidity, etc.), vehicle output, radiator size, and air flow: all of which are variable and constantly changing.

The simple answer is you WILL reach a point where the EWP can't keep up before you reach that point with a MWP in the exact same conditions.

Here's another way to put it.
Are there scenarios where the EWP is not sufficient for said application? Yes.
Are there scenarios where the MWP isn't sufficient for said application? No.
Are there scenarios where the EWP is a better option the a MWP? Yes. Vis-a-Versa? Yes.
Do EWP and MWP fail? Yes.

Simple.

 

hrcslam is it your day off? Damn you be putting lots of words down, son!

And the other 34.6% is the tool behind the tool?

 

If its simple, why does this argument always come up?

No one can say when and at what combo an EWP will stop being effective at cooling. Granted I am a slightly biased example as my power adder is in vaccum while cruising, but, my power levels are cooled fine with an EWP at 75mph. Perhaps at 90mph continuous speeds it won't be? IDK and so far no one else in this thread does either. Which is full circle, no one can say an MWP or EWP will be bad/good/neither with conclusive, real life proof. Not science says it won't work, actually datalogs showing IAT/ECT running away. But then we delve into who defines stabilized temps yadda yadda yadda.

For the record, I can't think of any mechanical pump on an accessory drive, usually they like to convert to electricity prior to distribution (I know pads may have other stuff but whats the big users, generators/starters) More fun facts? The biggest killer of my stuff's system efficiency, the damn fan. Mechanical spun, axial flow, constant volume fan. That and bearings.

And your faith in spline drives (the coupler is a spline drive) is interesting. I would not call them an end all solution to stuff, they break just as easy as anything else. Spline inserts have a terribly short life span for teh most part and even a metal to metal spline conenction has a lifespan. Are they couple thousand TBO? No, but they do fail.

/thread off topic

 

No. Lol. I work a swing shift, so I'm off work when others aren't. Also, I just moved and finally got my Internet and computer up and going. So I was finally able to respond with a qwerty instead of on my phone with swipe.

 

It can absolutely be said an EWP has a lower cooling limit than a MWP with all other things being the same. It can also be said WHEN it will happen, however ALL variables must first be known.

Honestly, cruising at 90mph, the air flow through the radiator is so high I don't think that'll be a real issue either. But that will depend on how many RPM's it'll take for you to maintain 90mph. I went cruising for a bit at over 100mph (about 2250RPMs) at over 95°F out (it was night time, about 2AM so open roads), temps stayed below 185°F. AC on full blast too. How would an EWP do on my car in that situation? Not sure, could be fine, could've ran a little hotter. Likely wouldn't have overheated though.

I never said the spline drive is the end all be all. A lot of aviation has a starter/gen on spline drive and that's it (fuel pumps too, but some -read: small acft- use only electric/boost pumps). But, that's because that's all the engine has (usually due to space and location plus redundancy limitations; fixed wing). I've seen AC compressors, fuel pump's, and hydraulic pump's on spline drive. What I don't see? Is anything that can be practically driven of the engine done by a belt or electric.

The argument comes up because people don't understand how it actually works and argue to it. "But, but, but it works perfect for me!" Is the argument they put up when a logical legitimate discussion regarding the limitations of the reduced cooling provided by the EWP along with it's poorer than MWP reliability and increased system complexity. Want to know the limitations of an EWP? Come here to Phoenix in the Summer, let's put down some 30-50 minute open road course sessions. I'm sure we'll find it real quick.

 

Well duh, as some supplier says, "at 40k feet, nothing is trivial" I wouldn't trust a belt on a gear pad behind or near a hot *** turbine.

That being said, gears and bearings are just as finicky and complex.

Either way, both sides to this argument are wrong with a blanket statement applied. I would be more worried about IAT running away than ECT if was doing a long 1/2 mile event. I guarantee my engine bay and cooling stack sheds more BTU than anyone else in this thread, regardless of OAT.

 

Agreed on all parts.

 

Maybe you have a terrible memory or are just trying to ignore what was already said but this is 100% being referenced in my post. I asked several times for proof of this and you magically went off topic and made some **** up or tried to belittle me with your opinion of "superior" intelligence.

So what is it now? And how did you **** up something so simple as the driveshaft assembly?

The complexity I speak about is how any of the given water pumps have their impeller turned. How you continue to argue this is very entertaining!

 

You obviously lack the skill sufficient to accomplish a simple site search. Yet alone Google.

In fact a couple people have responded to this thread (see quotes directly below, you responded to one of them directly - to discount the experience of course) with their personal experience conforming this. Others have experienced no rise in coolant temps (also responses in this thread). And there have been new threads here on LS1Tech asking about raised coolant temps while highway cruising (EWP related of course, because MWP don't do that).

BMX, The complexity you think you know about is wrong. How the impeller is turned is what I've addressed. Do you really think the electric motor gets its power from no where? Think about it, use that mass located between your ears.

Shall we continue this dance? Do you want to continue to be a belligerent uninformed poster who seems hell bent on showing everyone here exactly how much he doesn't know?

 

Should have AC right off the stator feed an AC motor for EWP. Max efficiency!!!!!

 

You know (I know you are jesting, but some what on that point), I always wondered why they haven't tried using RC Brushless Motors? They push significantly more power than what Meziere or CSR or who ever else is making. They have only 1 moving part and are supposed to be significantly more reliable and efficient. Some of these motors push 3 hp (2200+W) and fit in the palm of your hand! Run those at optimal load for longevity and since they are so small, two can be installed as a redundancy. Of course the alternator will HAVE to be upgraded (at max power that little RC motor is asking for 160A; more than the stock alternator can make), I'd do an 80A load limiter and shoot for roughly 10 times the flow power of the Meziere HD. That would be plenty sufficient for all driving scenarios I'd think.

Is it more complex? Yes. But it's better than what's currently offered.

 

Same reason you find brushes in plane starters, and what year is it? Absurd but industries are comfortable with what they know so its tough to change. But, its cheap, requires no smart GCUs and can be "serviced", I mean, who cares about TBO's anyways.

(Everything I do is brushless, even some VSCF stuff)

 

Touche`. But the starter/gen on ACFT are significantly larger than anything on our cars. And the suppliers and that structure hasn't been around for decades so moving to brushless on car applications should be quick and easy. There has to be another reason that I'm not thinking of.

 

Its the control unit for the most part, at least in my interaction with the stuff. Takes a smart unit to regulate field and monitor output. (We have something that will give whatever torque the turbine wants, stupid but dat fuel efficiency life)

That and cost, diodes and PMG are pricey compared to a simple brush/commutator design. Granted you could use 12v battery as excitation, but again would need to be regulated etc, we use ACFT 28vDC for that on simple GCU vs adding in a PMG.

But, in theory, you could tie your control unit feedback loop based off of TPS/ECT/VSS in order to wind down EWP at idle and go full field at WOT. Would be pretty awesome actually lol

 

Yeah, the system will be more expensive and complex (therefore less reliable). It would take some time before the costs would come down. I remember reading some articles of some of the first electric super/turbo designs using multiple brushless RC motors with some success due to their power to weight ratio. The problem is they couldn't power the damn things for more than a few minutes without a couple hundred pounds of batteries in the trunk. The design has changed to a custom brushless single motor (larger) and IIRC Audi or BMW will be adding one to their line up in the short future (5-10 years) for one of their smaller cars.

 

F1 uses electric turbos AFAIK.

Everything I deal with can be 3/6/12 phase AC, or 270vDC out, same generator, hence my comments before.