Horsepower gain with small cam
04-21-2006 | 10:21 PM
#41
Originally Posted by License2Ill
I third this, ZZ3/4 cam idles close to stock, fuel economy barely changes and offers a strong difference in power over stock.
And if you want to get nitty gritty the lift for duration is higher than most aftermarket cam. It is the most lift for the smallest duration that you want to build gas efficiency and maximize its power. The stock cam does not do this, and the ZZ4 simply gives you a ton more lift without changing the duration too drastically from stock. I'm going with 1.7rr in my upcoming rebuild and keeping my ZZ4 cam, gas on it has been close to stock. IMO its the little GM profile that could. Haven't seen any aftermarket deliver more lift for it's duration. It's split profile will serve me well after I maximize it's power and spray NOS.
I also second the notions of the LT4 kit, I saw no real "up" in the upgrade to using it's timing set, and I easily took that money towards a GEN1 double roller and with the extra cash left over added an electric water pump.
The LT4 does give duration which yeilds horsepower but it's lift for duration is very unimpresssive and is similar to a non-roller hydraulic cam. The point of going roller was to offer more lift!!! Also the "hotcam" is a single pattern. Yawn, aggressive ramping and tighter lobes, impresses me more than anything else. Even if its a relatively small cam it reflects efficiency, its bigger and in my opinion it's evil counterpart is the GM 847 another classic GM profile with tuff to beat ramping with similar lift returns per their duration figures.
Ideally the best is to run a solid roller they offer the best lift figures per durations but the pupu platters that make them never start at small durations they are huge cams to begin with.
Don't get me wrong duration does build HP but high lifts per smaller durations, builds HP AND efficiency, choose the little bastard that gives you the most lift per the duration figure ballpark you want to be in, and know ahead of time that it won't be the most popularly used cam. Look at the specs closely and compare. Lobe seperation is a factor I like it as tight as possible but it isn't a must do, wider seperations offer smoother idle and a wider power band, but when your dealing with smaller duration idle is not bad so you can afford to go tighter than your average cam when dealing with smaller durations. I haven't looked at cams in awhile but the last time I did Lingenfelter had some nice small cams ground with plenty of lift and fairly tight LS.
And if you want to get nitty gritty the lift for duration is higher than most aftermarket cam. It is the most lift for the smallest duration that you want to build gas efficiency and maximize its power. The stock cam does not do this, and the ZZ4 simply gives you a ton more lift without changing the duration too drastically from stock. I'm going with 1.7rr in my upcoming rebuild and keeping my ZZ4 cam, gas on it has been close to stock. IMO its the little GM profile that could. Haven't seen any aftermarket deliver more lift for it's duration. It's split profile will serve me well after I maximize it's power and spray NOS.
I also second the notions of the LT4 kit, I saw no real "up" in the upgrade to using it's timing set, and I easily took that money towards a GEN1 double roller and with the extra cash left over added an electric water pump.
The LT4 does give duration which yeilds horsepower but it's lift for duration is very unimpresssive and is similar to a non-roller hydraulic cam. The point of going roller was to offer more lift!!! Also the "hotcam" is a single pattern. Yawn, aggressive ramping and tighter lobes, impresses me more than anything else. Even if its a relatively small cam it reflects efficiency, its bigger and in my opinion it's evil counterpart is the GM 847 another classic GM profile with tuff to beat ramping with similar lift returns per their duration figures.
Ideally the best is to run a solid roller they offer the best lift figures per durations but the pupu platters that make them never start at small durations they are huge cams to begin with.
Don't get me wrong duration does build HP but high lifts per smaller durations, builds HP AND efficiency, choose the little bastard that gives you the most lift per the duration figure ballpark you want to be in, and know ahead of time that it won't be the most popularly used cam. Look at the specs closely and compare. Lobe seperation is a factor I like it as tight as possible but it isn't a must do, wider seperations offer smoother idle and a wider power band, but when your dealing with smaller duration idle is not bad so you can afford to go tighter than your average cam when dealing with smaller durations. I haven't looked at cams in awhile but the last time I did Lingenfelter had some nice small cams ground with plenty of lift and fairly tight LS.
04-21-2006 | 11:51 PM
#42
Originally Posted by slamm69
Do you have any ET #s or power #s from your set-up.Another thing alot of people write about the LPE ZZ3/ZZ4 cams but I'm not seeing any ZZ's on his web site.What #s am I looking for?
I'd be interested in seeing some before and after dyno testing of a LT1 w/ the ZZ4 cam. I've thought about it before and it looks promising for an LT1 until you remember the HOTcam has been tested to be worth 20+hp over the ZZ4 cam in the ZZ4 crate engine numerous times I believe. W/ the LT1 heads flowing better than the AL L98 heads on the ZZ4 I'd think it would like the hotter cam even more...
I'm torn between one of the smaller cams like the Crane 227 and the CC305 myself. I want to stick w/ the stock stall so I'm thinking the smaller cam is the way to go which brings us full circle as it's not much different from the ZZ4... Be interesting to see some real dyno testing between several of these different cams in a LT1. I wonder if something like the Crane 227 although very similar specs wise to the ZZ4 cam wouldn't outperform it due to better ramp rates or whatever...
The ZZ4 cam also has the shorter dowel pin if I'm not mistaken, which would need to be changed to run in a later LT1. I think it needs something else done to it to run in a LT1 too, not sure though that may have also only been w/ newer vented opti cars, perhaps License2Ill can chime in there... The nice thing about running the ZZ4 over the Crane 227 is you can get new ZZ4 cams for around $100 that are fresh take outs of unused ZZ4 crate engines.
Last edited by Camaro Fan; 04-22-2006 at 01:07 AM.
04-22-2006 | 07:28 AM
#43
TRhe hole in the end of the ZZ4 cam also needs to be opened up to .500" and made a litle deeper I think. I bought mine already modified. Here is a graph for it. The shop was goofy and picked up wheel rpm rather than engine the spikes are shifts it downshifted then went back to 3rd so before 4000rpms is second gear, peak torque on this cam is below 4000rpms. This was an unlocked converter which was obviously multiplying torque and costing HP and the AFR was as rich as 11.8. Just a BH mailorder tune so there was more left had I tinkered and tuned some more.http://www.regionofdoomforum.com/Upl...emgr/graph.jpg
Not a big HP number but if you consider everything that was working against it it wasn't bad either and it is mellow enough for the wife to take Grandma shopping in even if the truck was full of ET Drags so there was no room there for bags
.
That was stock hortblock 10:1 with stock iron heads and 1.5 rockers too, the iron heads will not allow 1.6 on the exhust side due to lift unless you pull them and put screwin studs and mill the guides.
Not a big HP number but if you consider everything that was working against it it wasn't bad either and it is mellow enough for the wife to take Grandma shopping in even if the truck was full of ET Drags so there was no room there for bags
.That was stock hortblock 10:1 with stock iron heads and 1.5 rockers too, the iron heads will not allow 1.6 on the exhust side due to lift unless you pull them and put screwin studs and mill the guides.
04-22-2006 | 10:21 AM
#44
My bad on the makers of the ZZ.How do you make the right pick with so many cams to chose from?Hot cam,Crane,Comp,LPE,TPIS,GMPP,ect.Would it be worth the effort to just call Bret or some other custom cam builder and go that route?Could they give me the power and driveability that it seems we are all after?Would a custom cam actually be better in these departments?I know it is easy to just order a cam from the popular cam makers,but to make the closest to perfect choice would a custom cam blow the others out of the water?
04-23-2006 | 01:32 AM
#45
Like 96capri said a machine shop should be able to do the mod. And yes we need the longer dowel pin especially i think if your running the vented opti's , I couldn't find a dowel pin locally and didnt have the time to wait for a delivery so I went to sears and bought a toungsten type carbide drill bit, and took that to the machine shop when they drilled the front center hole deeper, they cut the bit and tapped her into the dowel pin hole for a perfect fit and equal strength.
I really cannot recommend a custom ground small cam. There are many to choose from and it does get tuff to decide, a big factor for me was also the fact that I picked up a ZZ4 cam takeout as mentioned above for 75 bucks.
Out of all the manufacturers look at the specs closely, you will find that many are similar and I remember having a hard time choosing, until I started to look at Lobe seperation amongst them all, and this ended up being the deciding factor for the ZZ4 cuz not only did have the best lift, but it was also ground the tightest if I recall correctly I think 110. While many even from COMP cams, Crane, etc etc, were not even close they were like 114 or 112, some even 116!! which is factory LS!
Use that it will help you decide.
And if you take the time out to look at the bigger profiles too and look at their patterns you'll see that the guys at GM crank out some of the best profiles, it really unmasks the dookie that aftermarket tends to outsell.
I think keeping in mind that if you truly want a lot of N/A hp you have to go with big duration and disregard gas economy, so since we're not going all out, why go spend big bucks on a custom?? I would go custom only if I was talking a big cam. You want to focus on breathing heads and exhuast and maximizing a small cam, that will cost you some dollars just as if it was a big cam, so save those bucks towards that.
If you are really considering it tho, most small cams do not have tighter than 110 LS. And altho you will not be needing to come up with magical new duration and lift figures, if you were to grind a profile like the ZZ4's onto a 106 LS, you would be in a sense "blowing the others out the water".
Small cams can take tight LS but most are not ground under 110. This is a limitation I think imposed to maintain a good idle that grinders think anyone who wants a small cam must want good idle, I frankly don't give a chit about idle, the only reason I go small is for gas, tighter LS will roughen up your idle while increasing your peak HP, it would be cool to have a hog wild sounding cam, that isn't a hog on gas. So yea in that sense picking a small profile and custom grinding it to something under 110 LS, is pretty cool becuz no profile out there offers truly tight LS or even goes to the extremes of causing a rough idle, it could also be becuz of vacuum for the brakes and what not, but yea on second thought you could on tighter lobe seperations(and a vacuum canister
take a small cam profile into a more aggressive level of performance with efficiency, while disregarding idle quality, which I think no ones done.
I'd really like to see that, or better yet hear that, it would have to sound different from a high duration rough idle.
If you got the bucks I say go for it, you won't be making incredibe HP but you may be able to match bigger cam HP with better mileage and at a lower RPM.
I really cannot recommend a custom ground small cam. There are many to choose from and it does get tuff to decide, a big factor for me was also the fact that I picked up a ZZ4 cam takeout as mentioned above for 75 bucks.
Out of all the manufacturers look at the specs closely, you will find that many are similar and I remember having a hard time choosing, until I started to look at Lobe seperation amongst them all, and this ended up being the deciding factor for the ZZ4 cuz not only did have the best lift, but it was also ground the tightest if I recall correctly I think 110. While many even from COMP cams, Crane, etc etc, were not even close they were like 114 or 112, some even 116!! which is factory LS!
Use that it will help you decide.
And if you take the time out to look at the bigger profiles too and look at their patterns you'll see that the guys at GM crank out some of the best profiles, it really unmasks the dookie that aftermarket tends to outsell.
I think keeping in mind that if you truly want a lot of N/A hp you have to go with big duration and disregard gas economy, so since we're not going all out, why go spend big bucks on a custom?? I would go custom only if I was talking a big cam. You want to focus on breathing heads and exhuast and maximizing a small cam, that will cost you some dollars just as if it was a big cam, so save those bucks towards that.
If you are really considering it tho, most small cams do not have tighter than 110 LS. And altho you will not be needing to come up with magical new duration and lift figures, if you were to grind a profile like the ZZ4's onto a 106 LS, you would be in a sense "blowing the others out the water".
Small cams can take tight LS but most are not ground under 110. This is a limitation I think imposed to maintain a good idle that grinders think anyone who wants a small cam must want good idle, I frankly don't give a chit about idle, the only reason I go small is for gas, tighter LS will roughen up your idle while increasing your peak HP, it would be cool to have a hog wild sounding cam, that isn't a hog on gas. So yea in that sense picking a small profile and custom grinding it to something under 110 LS, is pretty cool becuz no profile out there offers truly tight LS or even goes to the extremes of causing a rough idle, it could also be becuz of vacuum for the brakes and what not, but yea on second thought you could on tighter lobe seperations(and a vacuum canister
take a small cam profile into a more aggressive level of performance with efficiency, while disregarding idle quality, which I think no ones done.I'd really like to see that, or better yet hear that, it would have to sound different from a high duration rough idle.
If you got the bucks I say go for it, you won't be making incredibe HP but you may be able to match bigger cam HP with better mileage and at a lower RPM.
04-23-2006 | 09:53 AM
#46
Originally Posted by License2Ill
Like 96capri said a machine shop should be able to do the mod. And yes we need the longer dowel pin especially i think if your running the vented opti's , I couldn't find a dowel pin locally and didnt have the time to wait for a delivery so I went to sears and bought a toungsten type carbide drill bit, and took that to the machine shop when they drilled the front center hole deeper, they cut the bit and tapped her into the dowel pin hole for a perfect fit and equal strength.
I really cannot recommend a custom ground small cam. There are many to choose from and it does get tuff to decide, a big factor for me was also the fact that I picked up a ZZ4 cam takeout as mentioned above for 75 bucks.
Out of all the manufacturers look at the specs closely, you will find that many are similar and I remember having a hard time choosing, until I started to look at Lobe seperation amongst them all, and this ended up being the deciding factor for the ZZ4 cuz not only did have the best lift, but it was also ground the tightest if I recall correctly I think 110. While many even from COMP cams, Crane, etc etc, were not even close they were like 114 or 112, some even 116!! which is factory LS!
Use that it will help you decide.
And if you take the time out to look at the bigger profiles too and look at their patterns you'll see that the guys at GM crank out some of the best profiles, it really unmasks the dookie that aftermarket tends to outsell.
I think keeping in mind that if you truly want a lot of N/A hp you have to go with big duration and disregard gas economy, so since we're not going all out, why go spend big bucks on a custom?? I would go custom only if I was talking a big cam. You want to focus on breathing heads and exhuast and maximizing a small cam, that will cost you some dollars just as if it was a big cam, so save those bucks towards that.
If you are really considering it tho, most small cams do not have tighter than 110 LS. And altho you will not be needing to come up with magical new duration and lift figures, if you were to grind a profile like the ZZ4's onto a 106 LS, you would be in a sense "blowing the others out the water".
Small cams can take tight LS but most are not ground under 110. This is a limitation I think imposed to maintain a good idle that grinders think anyone who wants a small cam must want good idle, I frankly don't give a chit about idle, the only reason I go small is for gas, tighter LS will roughen up your idle while increasing your peak HP, it would be cool to have a hog wild sounding cam, that isn't a hog on gas. So yea in that sense picking a small profile and custom grinding it to something under 110 LS, is pretty cool becuz no profile out there offers truly tight LS or even goes to the extremes of causing a rough idle, it could also be becuz of vacuum for the brakes and what not, but yea on second thought you could on tighter lobe seperations(and a vacuum canister take a small cam profile into a more aggressive level of performance with efficiency, while disregarding idle quality, which I think no ones done.
I'd really like to see that, or better yet hear that, it would have to sound different from a high duration rough idle.
If you got the bucks I say go for it, you won't be making incredibe HP but you may be able to match bigger cam HP with better mileage and at a lower RPM.
I really cannot recommend a custom ground small cam. There are many to choose from and it does get tuff to decide, a big factor for me was also the fact that I picked up a ZZ4 cam takeout as mentioned above for 75 bucks.
Out of all the manufacturers look at the specs closely, you will find that many are similar and I remember having a hard time choosing, until I started to look at Lobe seperation amongst them all, and this ended up being the deciding factor for the ZZ4 cuz not only did have the best lift, but it was also ground the tightest if I recall correctly I think 110. While many even from COMP cams, Crane, etc etc, were not even close they were like 114 or 112, some even 116!! which is factory LS!
Use that it will help you decide.
And if you take the time out to look at the bigger profiles too and look at their patterns you'll see that the guys at GM crank out some of the best profiles, it really unmasks the dookie that aftermarket tends to outsell.
I think keeping in mind that if you truly want a lot of N/A hp you have to go with big duration and disregard gas economy, so since we're not going all out, why go spend big bucks on a custom?? I would go custom only if I was talking a big cam. You want to focus on breathing heads and exhuast and maximizing a small cam, that will cost you some dollars just as if it was a big cam, so save those bucks towards that.
If you are really considering it tho, most small cams do not have tighter than 110 LS. And altho you will not be needing to come up with magical new duration and lift figures, if you were to grind a profile like the ZZ4's onto a 106 LS, you would be in a sense "blowing the others out the water".
Small cams can take tight LS but most are not ground under 110. This is a limitation I think imposed to maintain a good idle that grinders think anyone who wants a small cam must want good idle, I frankly don't give a chit about idle, the only reason I go small is for gas, tighter LS will roughen up your idle while increasing your peak HP, it would be cool to have a hog wild sounding cam, that isn't a hog on gas. So yea in that sense picking a small profile and custom grinding it to something under 110 LS, is pretty cool becuz no profile out there offers truly tight LS or even goes to the extremes of causing a rough idle, it could also be becuz of vacuum for the brakes and what not, but yea on second thought you could on tighter lobe seperations(and a vacuum canister
take a small cam profile into a more aggressive level of performance with efficiency, while disregarding idle quality, which I think no ones done.I'd really like to see that, or better yet hear that, it would have to sound different from a high duration rough idle.
If you got the bucks I say go for it, you won't be making incredibe HP but you may be able to match bigger cam HP with better mileage and at a lower RPM.
04-23-2006 | 10:42 AM
#47
Most off the shelf cams are compromised to allow the average person to pick too large a cam but not bitch that the cam grinder makes bad cams because it idles bad. So the LSA is usually overly wide, hurts power but improves drivability. The agverage person will never know about the power they are missing but would complain if it drive like crap.
David Vizard who has worked for several of the BIG cam companies has a great article on this and just how much power is lost spreading the lobes.
David Vizard who has worked for several of the BIG cam companies has a great article on this and just how much power is lost spreading the lobes.
04-23-2006 | 11:20 AM
#48
TECH Addict
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,153
Likes: 3
Originally Posted by slamm69
Makes me wonder why someone hasnt offered any cams with tighter LS.Sounds like basiclly all I would probably change on a custom is the LS.I thought that tighter LS pushed the power up stairs more?You are right, why spend the extra cash when I'm really not trying to out run John Force.
Also, tighter LSA's build more mid-range torque and power, while falling off quicker beyond peak power (losing over-rev).
05-29-2006 | 03:27 PM
#49
Originally Posted by TwoFast4Lv
The LPE cam is designed to raise Dynamic Compresion Ratio.....which is does in spades. The crane is a good choice also.
Both will give you a big return. We are shifting the LPE car at 6,400
Both will give you a big return. We are shifting the LPE car at 6,400
Right now I am torn between this cam and the crane 227.
05-29-2006 | 10:03 PM
#50
let me just say ive had my crane 227 for about maybe 2 months and i love it more and more every day. when i get my dyno tune and stall its goin to be a even a bigger blast to drive on the street and track.
05-30-2006 | 08:27 PM
#51
Originally Posted by C_Rules
let me just say ive had my crane 227 for about maybe 2 months and i love it more and more every day. when i get my dyno tune and stall its goin to be a even a bigger blast to drive on the street and track.
05-30-2006 | 09:22 PM
#52
The driveability now is nothing short of excellent 
no but really its great. My gas mileage is up and even with the ac on the car runs great. i drive my car all over highways, streets, even in traffic since i live in nyc. the car's driveability has not suffered one bit. only thing is i had to take of my 18 inch wheels because the pirellis werent giving me enough traction from stoplight to stoplight. so im back on the stockers and problem fixed. I'll let you guys know how the car runs after the tune and stall is in. As for power there was a big jump because i had everything done at once heads, tb, manifold, rockers, and cam. So i cant really say how big of a jump the cam by itself wold give.
no but really its great. My gas mileage is up and even with the ac on the car runs great. i drive my car all over highways, streets, even in traffic since i live in nyc. the car's driveability has not suffered one bit. only thing is i had to take of my 18 inch wheels because the pirellis werent giving me enough traction from stoplight to stoplight. so im back on the stockers and problem fixed. I'll let you guys know how the car runs after the tune and stall is in. As for power there was a big jump because i had everything done at once heads, tb, manifold, rockers, and cam. So i cant really say how big of a jump the cam by itself wold give.
06-02-2006 | 08:50 PM
#53
Originally Posted by C_Rules
The driveability now is nothing short of excellent no but really its great. My gas mileage is up and even with the ac on the car runs great. i drive my car all over highways, streets, even in traffic since i live in nyc. the car's driveability has not suffered one bit. only thing is i had to take of my 18 inch wheels because the pirellis werent giving me enough traction from stoplight to stoplight. so im back on the stockers and problem fixed. I'll let you guys know how the car runs after the tune and stall is in. As for power there was a big jump because i had everything done at once heads, tb, manifold, rockers, and cam. So i cant really say how big of a jump the cam by itself wold give.
no but really its great. My gas mileage is up and even with the ac on the car runs great. i drive my car all over highways, streets, even in traffic since i live in nyc. the car's driveability has not suffered one bit. only thing is i had to take of my 18 inch wheels because the pirellis werent giving me enough traction from stoplight to stoplight. so im back on the stockers and problem fixed. I'll let you guys know how the car runs after the tune and stall is in. As for power there was a big jump because i had everything done at once heads, tb, manifold, rockers, and cam. So i cant really say how big of a jump the cam by itself wold give.
06-02-2006 | 09:22 PM
#54
S&S Speed shop on 107th and Atlantic avenue did all my head and manifold work. They were the ones who recommended the Crane 227 based on what i told them i wanted. Those guys are good they build a **** load of engines from domestic to import and they're alwasy busy. Its a family business and each one of the guys has their own car which they race. These guys love the bottle and build their cars around it except for the one who goes prefers n/a. Hes got an engine for sale pumpin over 1000 horses n/a. He's sellin it because hes building one to make like 1300 hp n/a. His heads cost him like 13 grand and the block is enormous of course. These guys are no strangers to high 6s and 7s in the 1/4. Excellent people to deal with very knowledgable and the prices are right. Im also going to be using the same tuner as them who is in NJ. Just waiting on making the appointment. But as soon as i get it done i'll post the numbers.
