running car with out thermastat
07-20-2006, 12:46 PM
#1
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running car with out thermastat i bought this car yesterday let my friend drive it and he blew out the water pump
when i was removing the water pump i noticed there was no thermastat in it
can this present a problem? should i leave it as is or put a new thermastat in it?
thanks
robbie
when i was removing the water pump i noticed there was no thermastat in it
can this present a problem? should i leave it as is or put a new thermastat in it?
thanks
robbie
07-20-2006, 01:24 PM
#2
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I would say put a new thermostat in. If anything else just to be safe. I didn't know you could run it without the thermo. safe at least
Plus they are pretty cheap, I think I have a stock one lying around it you want it for like $5
Plus they are pretty cheap, I think I have a stock one lying around it you want it for like $5
07-20-2006, 01:32 PM
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Correct me if I am wrong but the themostat allows the block to run at a sepecified temperature, Once the block gets to a specified temperature the themostat then opens and the size of the hole in the themostat controls the flow. We used to use gutted themostats the keep the block as cool as possible. Problems I then had were fouled plugs from not actually running warm enough. My suggestion is to run a themostat.
07-20-2006, 06:35 PM
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you need to run the thermo. Otherwise it will over heat, as it will hinder flow to the motor and send the needed coolant on a wild goose chase through all the outlets.
07-20-2006, 07:11 PM
#5
Originally Posted by HBHRacing
you need to run the thermo. Otherwise it will over heat, as it will hinder flow to the motor and send the needed coolant on a wild goose chase through all the outlets.
Without a thermostat it may run too cool. The thermostat makes it so the motor will heat up quicker and never drop below the temp of the thermostat (so a 160* thermostat blocks the coolant flow under 160*).
My car without a thermostat would take forever to heat up, and with faans hooked up (after it heated up) it would drop way way way down (past 160*). With a 180* thermostat it heats up good and quick and when I have the fans on (always) it ride right at 180* all the time.
07-20-2006, 07:23 PM
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if your lucky thats what it will do, otherwise it will disperse the coolant in every direction. Sending it out to the bypass hose towards the heater core etc etc. It's also going to flow too fast causing crappy heat pickup. I have seen it happen many a time due to the fact that people think it will work well, instead of doing it right with a low Temp thermo and a fan switch.
The dual stage thermo helps to correctly route the coolant, it's very key to keeping the path running correctly. This is why.
The LT1 uses a duel stage pump/ thermo. Thats why it has 2 springs. 1 stage is bypass (routes in a cycle between the motor and heater core, not going to the radiator.) The other is a cycle running between the radiator and motor. The thermo meters both of these, to heat the heater core, and cool the motor. once the second stage opens, it mixes with the bypass flow some.
Whats supposed to happen, is cool radiator coolant will flow directly to teh heads, then block, then back to the radiator and so on. But with no thermo, it doesn't. Some will, but a majority of it will just mix with the bypass circuit and not even reach the motor. Fluid thats hot going FROM the motor, is suposed to then flow to the pump again, and then directed from the thermo to the radiator. Again, if teh thermo isn't in, it will just mix back in with the hot engine fluid and most will never even see the radiator.
all of this usually adds up to over heating. The same way that people that put in a SBC thermo by mistake overheat.
The dual stage thermo helps to correctly route the coolant, it's very key to keeping the path running correctly. This is why.
The LT1 uses a duel stage pump/ thermo. Thats why it has 2 springs. 1 stage is bypass (routes in a cycle between the motor and heater core, not going to the radiator.) The other is a cycle running between the radiator and motor. The thermo meters both of these, to heat the heater core, and cool the motor. once the second stage opens, it mixes with the bypass flow some.
Whats supposed to happen, is cool radiator coolant will flow directly to teh heads, then block, then back to the radiator and so on. But with no thermo, it doesn't. Some will, but a majority of it will just mix with the bypass circuit and not even reach the motor. Fluid thats hot going FROM the motor, is suposed to then flow to the pump again, and then directed from the thermo to the radiator. Again, if teh thermo isn't in, it will just mix back in with the hot engine fluid and most will never even see the radiator.
all of this usually adds up to over heating. The same way that people that put in a SBC thermo by mistake overheat.
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07-20-2006, 07:32 PM
#8
Originally Posted by HBHRacing
if your lucky thats what it will do, otherwise it will disperse the coolant in every direction. Sending it out to the bypass hose towards the heater core etc etc. It's also going to flow too fast causing crappy heat pickup. I have seen it happen many a time due to the fact that people think it will work well, instead of doing it right with a low Temp thermo and a fan switch.
The dual stage thermo helps to correctly route the coolant, it's very key to keeping the path running correctly. This is why.
The LT1 uses a duel stage pump/ thermo. Thats why it has 2 springs. 1 stage is bypass (routes in a cycle between the motor and heater core, not going to the radiator.) The other is a cycle running between the radiator and motor. The thermo meters both of these, to heat the heater core, and cool the motor. once the second stage opens, it mixes with the bypass flow some.
Whats supposed to happen, is cool radiator coolant will flow directly to teh heads, then block, then back to the radiator and so on. But with no thermo, it doesn't. Some will, but a majority of it will just mix with the bypass circuit and not even reach the motor. Fluid thats hot going FROM the motor, is suposed to then flow to the pump again, and then directed from the thermo to the radiator. Again, if teh thermo isn't in, it will just mix back in with the hot engine fluid and most will never even see the radiator.
all of this usually adds up to over heating. The same way that people that put in a SBC thermo by mistake overheat.
The dual stage thermo helps to correctly route the coolant, it's very key to keeping the path running correctly. This is why.
The LT1 uses a duel stage pump/ thermo. Thats why it has 2 springs. 1 stage is bypass (routes in a cycle between the motor and heater core, not going to the radiator.) The other is a cycle running between the radiator and motor. The thermo meters both of these, to heat the heater core, and cool the motor. once the second stage opens, it mixes with the bypass flow some.
Whats supposed to happen, is cool radiator coolant will flow directly to teh heads, then block, then back to the radiator and so on. But with no thermo, it doesn't. Some will, but a majority of it will just mix with the bypass circuit and not even reach the motor. Fluid thats hot going FROM the motor, is suposed to then flow to the pump again, and then directed from the thermo to the radiator. Again, if teh thermo isn't in, it will just mix back in with the hot engine fluid and most will never even see the radiator.
all of this usually adds up to over heating. The same way that people that put in a SBC thermo by mistake overheat.
If ur lucky huh? Well guess im real lucky cuz that is what it did everytime my car or my frineds cars did not have a thermostat in it. ALWAYS AND EVERYTIME...
The thermo I bought was no differnt looking than a normal SBC one (and that part number is correct and it is the correct thermo).
I ave seen some people in there race cars only stick a big washer with a certain sized hole in it in place of the thermostat. Why they did this i have not a clue. A thermostat is just a much better idea.
Anyways, with either of our posts, the point is you need to put a thermostat in. My personal opinion is it is not going to overheat without one in it (obviously it did not before, so it will not now). But i would keep one it to keep from running to cool (or too hot in this other fellows case)
07-20-2006, 07:40 PM
#9
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I don't think you understand how the LT1 coolant system operates. The duel spring thermo is NOT the same as the standard SBC thermo, and needs very much to be run to prevent overheating. You might want to read up on the operation of the system a bit.
Then you got the wrong one, period. This is actually very, very common knowledge.
It's called a "restrictor", and does just that. It allows coolant flow all the time in metered portions. They do this because they want to be running very low temps, and do not need a thermo. Another reason for the restrictor is to keep volume down, as I said before if the coolant moves to fast, it will not pick up much heat in the motor because it's moving so fast. Another reason is because they run high high RPM, it will not create so much pressure that cavitation kicks in.
Just another point, is that no other system is like the LT1, the SBC rules don't apply to the LT1. Again, read up on the theory and operation and it will become clear.
The thermo I bought was no differnt looking than a normal SBC one
I ave seen some people in there race cars only stick a big washer with a certain sized hole in it in place of the thermostat. Why they did this i have not a clue.
Just another point, is that no other system is like the LT1, the SBC rules don't apply to the LT1. Again, read up on the theory and operation and it will become clear.
07-20-2006, 07:46 PM
#10
Originally Posted by HBHRacing
I don't think you understand how the LT1 coolant system operates. The duel spring thermo is NOT the same as the standard SBC thermo, and needs very much to be run to prevent overheating. You might want to read up on the operation of the system a bit.
Then you got the wrong one, period. This is actually very, very common knowledge.
It's called a "restrictor", and does just that. It allows coolant flow all the time in metered portions. They do this because they want to be running very low temps, and do not need a thermo. Another reason for the restrictor is to keep volume down, as I said before if the coolant moves to fast, it will not pick up much heat in the motor because it's moving so fast. Another reason is because they run high high RPM, it will not create so much pressure that cavitation kicks in.
Just another point, is that no other system is like the LT1, the SBC rules don't apply to the LT1. Again, read up on the theory and operation and it will become clear.
Then you got the wrong one, period. This is actually very, very common knowledge.
It's called a "restrictor", and does just that. It allows coolant flow all the time in metered portions. They do this because they want to be running very low temps, and do not need a thermo. Another reason for the restrictor is to keep volume down, as I said before if the coolant moves to fast, it will not pick up much heat in the motor because it's moving so fast. Another reason is because they run high high RPM, it will not create so much pressure that cavitation kicks in.
Just another point, is that no other system is like the LT1, the SBC rules don't apply to the LT1. Again, read up on the theory and operation and it will become clear.
I never at any point said you were uncorrect. I do not know reverse flow cooling very well. BUT THE POINT IS IN MY EXPERIENCE WHAT YOU DESCRIBE DOES NOT HAPPEN. Simple as that.
Theory is not always fact... remember that.
But hey... maybe my lt1 is magic... never know.
But the thread was about him wanting to know if he should put one in or not... simply put, yes.
07-20-2006, 07:54 PM
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You do understand that by posting on the Internet, claiming that you run no thermo without any issue, it will inherently cause other people to think it's also ok don't you? Thats the way the Internet works, instead it would be helpful to dispel this belive instead of encouraging it.
My experience shows that the wrong, or no thermo causes overheating. I have seen it in no less then 5 fbodies, and 1 caprice. The reason why, I have covered. The fact that it happens I have covered. you cant say "you should run a thermo, but I don't and it's fine" without expecting people to listen to the latter.
My experience shows that the wrong, or no thermo causes overheating. I have seen it in no less then 5 fbodies, and 1 caprice. The reason why, I have covered. The fact that it happens I have covered. you cant say "you should run a thermo, but I don't and it's fine" without expecting people to listen to the latter.
07-20-2006, 08:07 PM
#12
Originally Posted by HBHRacing
You do understand that by posting on the Internet, claiming that you run no thermo without any issue, it will inherently cause other people to think it's also ok don't you? Thats the way the Internet works, instead it would be helpful to dispel this belive instead of encouraging it.
My experience shows that the wrong, or no thermo causes overheating. I have seen it in no less then 5 fbodies, and 1 caprice. The reason why, I have covered. The fact that it happens I have covered. you cant say "you should run a thermo, but I don't and it's fine" without expecting people to listen to the latter.
My experience shows that the wrong, or no thermo causes overheating. I have seen it in no less then 5 fbodies, and 1 caprice. The reason why, I have covered. The fact that it happens I have covered. you cant say "you should run a thermo, but I don't and it's fine" without expecting people to listen to the latter.
Plus the fact remains that the car (his friends) was running without one and doing fine, though we both made the suggestion one should be used.
Plus I would think it is common sence after doing anythign with the cooling system AT ALL would make one watch the gauge for a few weeks following. This way any problems would be noticed and taken care of.
07-20-2006, 09:17 PM
#13
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Looking into the way an LT1 cools,......the waterpump is the crossover...unlike any other V8. This is why the thermostat on an LT1 operates in BOTH directions, you cant put a standard thermo in the car and expect it to work. Tried that last weekend. "All LT1 engines utilize a special 2-way acting full bypass thermostat which can be seen in this photo: . Dual-acting means that the thermostat regulates coolant flow both in to as well as out of the engine, while the bypass portion of the thermostat circuit supplies the water pump with a full flow of liquid coolant at all times. This is unlike a conventional engine thermostat, which only regulates coolant flow at the engine outlet, and which does not allow full flow through the water pump when the engine is cold and the thermostat is in bypass mode.
Both sides of the 2-way thermostat used in the LT1 are linked together, and a single wax pellet actuator operates the spring loaded mechanism at a pre-set temperature. When the designated temperature is reached, the wax pellet expands, opening the dual acting valve. All current LT1s come from the factory with a relatively low 180 degree temperature thermostat. Most conventional engines today use 195 degree thermostats in order to meet emissions specifications at the expense of power, durability, and reliability.
It is important to note that the 2-way thermostat is unique to the Generation II LT1 and is not interchangeable with older Chevrolet smallblock engines. This is particularly important if you decide to change to a colder 160 degree thermostat, make sure it is the proper dual acting type required by the modern LT1...."
Both sides of the 2-way thermostat used in the LT1 are linked together, and a single wax pellet actuator operates the spring loaded mechanism at a pre-set temperature. When the designated temperature is reached, the wax pellet expands, opening the dual acting valve. All current LT1s come from the factory with a relatively low 180 degree temperature thermostat. Most conventional engines today use 195 degree thermostats in order to meet emissions specifications at the expense of power, durability, and reliability.
It is important to note that the 2-way thermostat is unique to the Generation II LT1 and is not interchangeable with older Chevrolet smallblock engines. This is particularly important if you decide to change to a colder 160 degree thermostat, make sure it is the proper dual acting type required by the modern LT1...."
07-21-2006, 09:34 AM
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hb is right..not running one will cause overheating problems...my friend did and it overheated in traffic..i have a 160 and a tune for the fans to come one at separate times and i can sit in traffic all day and never reach 210 in 100 degree georgia heat
07-21-2006, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by firebirdformulaTA
i was always wondering about not running a thermostat do you need one if you have an electric waterpump??
07-21-2006, 05:50 PM
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^ exactly. Just because the electric motor is circulating the coolant instead of the internal impeller, changes nothing about the system.
And I am glad to see that everyone else understands.
And I am glad to see that everyone else understands.
07-21-2006, 06:05 PM
#19
Originally Posted by HBHRacing
^ exactly. Just because the electric motor is circulating the coolant instead of the internal impeller, changes nothing about the system.
And I am glad to see that everyone else understands.
And I am glad to see that everyone else understands.
I cut the core support and put a big ole nasty Griffin in verticaly and ran without a thermostat for a week. My cars temp never raised above 170.