A4 > M6 Swap
If your going that route, might as well do a TH350/400 so that it can take the power.
Whats your setup, how much power, whats your expectations of the car, and do you care about O/D??
Whats your setup, how much power, whats your expectations of the car, and do you care about O/D??
if you have the money and want to put all the time into it, and its worth it to you, then sure. but imho i love my automatic. i do wish my car was 6 speed at times, because there "fun" to drive, but u cant get more consistant than an auto and i love they way the car feels when you get on it, and it bangs into gear and chips the tires. 
Teching In
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What do you use your car for? Factors like these must be considered. Someone said that autos are more consistent, but that doesn't matter to me, since my car is a toy for fun, and I don't care if my times are consistent, so much that I can just rocket down the 1320 as fast as possible. It wasn't a question for me when it came time for me to decide on the switch. I'll never go back to an automatic, and I even convinced my wife to get a manual when we bought her '98 Trans Am. It costed me about $1700 to convert mine. A friend and I did it in a couple weekends. It costed me $1200 for a junkyard transmission (and all components), and $500 for a good aftermarket clutch. I'm actually gonna pay $4000 next year to get mine rebuilt to handle 900hp & 800lb/ft, and I'll be using straight-cut gears to replace my old ones, both because they're stronger, but more importantly, I LOVE that gear whine that straight-cut geared transmissions make... 
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Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2005
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Daily driver, basic mods planned...little more power, eventual goal being lt4 upgrade, and prob 373s, and cutouts...thats about it. i used to be all about the track...but after having a broken car for so long....the whole track scene kinda wears on ya, ya know.
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Staging Lane
Joined: Oct 2005
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Originally Posted by FURY
What do you use your car for? Factors like these must be considered. Someone said that autos are more consistent, but that doesn't matter to me, since my car is a toy for fun, and I don't care if my times are consistent, so much that I can just rocket down the 1320 as fast as possible. It wasn't a question for me when it came time for me to decide on the switch. I'll never go back to an automatic, and I even convinced my wife to get a manual when we bought her '98 Trans Am. It costed me about $1700 to convert mine. A friend and I did it in a couple weekends. It costed me $1200 for a junkyard transmission (and all components), and $500 for a good aftermarket clutch. I'm actually gonna pay $4000 next year to get mine rebuilt to handle 900hp & 800lb/ft, and I'll be using straight-cut gears to replace my old ones, both because they're stronger, but more importantly, I LOVE that gear whine that straight-cut geared transmissions make...
was the swap a hard long involved surgery?
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Originally Posted by Mrwilson
was the swap a hard long involved surgery?
Originally Posted by UA-Plumber
Street= M6
Strip= A4
That pretty much sums it up imo.
Strip= A4
That pretty much sums it up imo.
An automatic is ideal for the strip, just not the 4L60E.
Ask anyone who runs better than 12's with a 4L60 how often it breaks on them.
Teching In
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Originally Posted by FURY
Really though, Ive burnt 4 'built' 4l60's from 3 diff company's with a stock LT1 w/ full exhaust, powerdyne @ 6psi, and a tune making no more than 365rwhp. All of these were 'guaranteed' to 6-700hp.
To avoid a flame fest, I'll omit the names of these companies. But they are all names passed around here frequently. The last company I used was the only one to honor their 1yr warranty and rebuild it for me. But it broke again within 1 month and they refused to fix it again, even though I was only 4 months into the warranty.
If you want to RELIABLY go 12's or better, you need to look toward a different transmission. 4L80E, TH400, TH350, glide, etc., or even a 6spd if your not worried about consistancy.
Teching In
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Originally Posted by Fire67
Too bad the link dosent work, I was looking forward to some interesting reading
I'l cut-n-paste it here for your reading pleasure:
I get the same question very frequently..."How much HP will your 4L60E's handle?" To accurately answer that question, we'd have to reach a certain breaking point. At this point, we just haven't got there. We currently have them holding up very well in 10 second/600+ HP cars.
The reason many shops rate their transmissions by HP, is because they've reached a common failure point that they can't manage to overcome.
I still can't believe how many posts I read about repeated burnt 2/4 band and 3/4 clutch failures I see. We solved those issues many many years ago. At one time, we had narrowed down our 4L60E's "weakest link" to the output shaft itself. With the release of the hardened 4L65E output shaft a few years ago, we haven't broke any since then.
Yes, we've had 4L60E's break parts over the years. When you find a weak link, you find/make better parts to fix that weak area. At this point, I feel as though we've solved all the problem/weak areas in the '60E.
Too many people get hung up on HP. What we've seen to be harder on '60E's are sub 1.6X 60 ft. times. A 400 HP car that 60's a 1.50 is much harder on a '60E than a 600 HP car that 60's a 1.70. It all depends on WHERE that power is made. Obviously a turbo/blower car is going to be easier on the launch than a car coming out on a 200 shot.
Unfortunately, 4L60E's still have a bad reputation of being weak. This is in part due to too many builders THINKING they can build them...LOL I see customers that have paid close to $3000 for a '60E. They thought they were getting the best. Judging from alot of what I've seen, too many builders just "miss the boat". When that expensive "Race" transmission bites the dust in a short period of time, the customer tends to blame the transmission. We've proven it's not the transmissions fault.
We still see other "Pro Shops" use antiquated parts and build techniques, such as vacuum modulators, kevlar bands, red 3-4 clutches, Trans Go kits, "Load Release" springs, etc. I love the challenge of a customer saying, "I've had this transmission built 4-5-6-7 times and it won't last!" We like changing those customers opinions...Once they have one built correctly.
If a builder wants to build a transmission with a vacuum modulator, they should stick to transmissions for 1975 Caprices. They simply don't belong/work in a '60E. Any "Old School" racers here? When you built a radical street machine with either a TH350 or a TH400 in it, what was one of the big transmission mods? When you go with a big cam, or forced induction, you usually had to go with a manual valvebody. That's because the vacuum modulators these transmissions came factory equipped with just couldn't accurately control them. So now we have misinformed builders putting something in a 4L60E that didn't work 20 years ago? There's no way a modulator will ever control pressure as precisely or quickly as a computer/electronic solenoid.
I hope this helps clear up the "How much will your transmission take" questions. We'll let you know when we reach a limiting factor that we can't improve on.
Thank You,
Frank
CPT
The reason many shops rate their transmissions by HP, is because they've reached a common failure point that they can't manage to overcome.
I still can't believe how many posts I read about repeated burnt 2/4 band and 3/4 clutch failures I see. We solved those issues many many years ago. At one time, we had narrowed down our 4L60E's "weakest link" to the output shaft itself. With the release of the hardened 4L65E output shaft a few years ago, we haven't broke any since then.
Yes, we've had 4L60E's break parts over the years. When you find a weak link, you find/make better parts to fix that weak area. At this point, I feel as though we've solved all the problem/weak areas in the '60E.
Too many people get hung up on HP. What we've seen to be harder on '60E's are sub 1.6X 60 ft. times. A 400 HP car that 60's a 1.50 is much harder on a '60E than a 600 HP car that 60's a 1.70. It all depends on WHERE that power is made. Obviously a turbo/blower car is going to be easier on the launch than a car coming out on a 200 shot.
Unfortunately, 4L60E's still have a bad reputation of being weak. This is in part due to too many builders THINKING they can build them...LOL I see customers that have paid close to $3000 for a '60E. They thought they were getting the best. Judging from alot of what I've seen, too many builders just "miss the boat". When that expensive "Race" transmission bites the dust in a short period of time, the customer tends to blame the transmission. We've proven it's not the transmissions fault.
We still see other "Pro Shops" use antiquated parts and build techniques, such as vacuum modulators, kevlar bands, red 3-4 clutches, Trans Go kits, "Load Release" springs, etc. I love the challenge of a customer saying, "I've had this transmission built 4-5-6-7 times and it won't last!" We like changing those customers opinions...Once they have one built correctly.
If a builder wants to build a transmission with a vacuum modulator, they should stick to transmissions for 1975 Caprices. They simply don't belong/work in a '60E. Any "Old School" racers here? When you built a radical street machine with either a TH350 or a TH400 in it, what was one of the big transmission mods? When you go with a big cam, or forced induction, you usually had to go with a manual valvebody. That's because the vacuum modulators these transmissions came factory equipped with just couldn't accurately control them. So now we have misinformed builders putting something in a 4L60E that didn't work 20 years ago? There's no way a modulator will ever control pressure as precisely or quickly as a computer/electronic solenoid.
I hope this helps clear up the "How much will your transmission take" questions. We'll let you know when we reach a limiting factor that we can't improve on.
Thank You,
Frank
CPT
Originally Posted by Fire67
A stock or even built A4 (4l60E) is not even close to being ideal for the strip. Considering they cant handle much power, let alone the pigish weight of our beloved F-bodys.
An automatic is ideal for the strip, just not the 4L60E.
Ask anyone who runs better than 12's with a 4L60 how often it breaks on them.
An automatic is ideal for the strip, just not the 4L60E.
Ask anyone who runs better than 12's with a 4L60 how often it breaks on them.
Like I said that was my opinion.
Originally Posted by FURY
Really? Works fine for me...
I'l cut-n-paste it here for your reading pleasure:
I'l cut-n-paste it here for your reading pleasure:
Whats interesting to me is that EVERY single 'pro' builder out there says the same thing. They all have the 'tricks' to make them hold up. And they ALL only talk about HP limits and/or 1/4mile performance. None recognize that a 400hp engine in a 3700# F-body, no matter the 60', is gonna be harder on the trans than a 400hp car in a 2800# car cutting better 60's. Weight is a HUGE factor in the durability of these things, and with the F-body weight is a big factor that simply cannot be completely solved.
I agree that some people may be able to get them to hold more power than someone else... Due to knowledge and skill. But the same parts are available to every builder, so is the same information. Its the builders translation of the information available to him that makes the difference.
One thing I agree on in that 'article' is to stay away from vacuum modulators. They really do not work that well, especially on FI cars that only produce vacuum at idle. The first 'built' 60E I bought had a vacuum modulator and it was horrible. I think I got 4 months outta that one.
If you DO the M6 swap.
Try and get 95+ T56s.
The early years, the T56s moved around companys, until finaly Tremec bought them.
In 93' they were called m29s, they had different gear ratios then later t56s.
Tony.
Try and get 95+ T56s.
The early years, the T56s moved around companys, until finaly Tremec bought them.
In 93' they were called m29s, they had different gear ratios then later t56s.
Tony.
Im doing the swap this winter. I got all the stuff, just need to finish building my garage and run the gas to the heater. I keep you guys updated with plenty of pics. When I do stuff like that Im a picture junkie, lol.
Bryan
Bryan
