This is gonna turn into a big argument 
e water pump worth it??
Dumb question... I understand how a warning light or buzzer would work (I think), butcould someone explain the relay thing to me? Are you making the EWP and some other electronic device (such as an ignition box) interdependent upon eachother?
Originally Posted by LT1nitrouZ
lots more difference in 2500 and 5000 than there is in a 100 amps and 104 amps. I think the EWP takes a whopping 3-4 amps to run... not gonna cause a loss of HP. It is retarded to think it is going to slow down due having to run a 4 amp EWP. I mean I can see where this stuff makes sense because when I hooked up that amplifier in my car I slowed down 2 tenths and 3 MPH... oh wait no i didnt 
The original poster questioned whether the EWP was worth it. I think it has been well established that with an EWP there is a significant reduction in parasitic losses resulting in more horsepower reaching the wheels. Most often there is enough gain that an ET reduction is realized.
You follow so far?
The generator reference was only an analogy. I'm sorry if it went over your head. That doesn't make me retarded.
Please take the time to reread my post that you quoted and point out where I said that an EWP slows anything down?
What? You can't find it!
I simply agreed with Camaro_ freak that the reason the EWP does not cause a drag, is because it moves less water. ''IF" the EWP used a big enough motor to move the same amount of water as the manual pump, there "WOULD" be more drag placed on the alernator, that "WOULD" offset the savings provided by removing the manual drive.
No one was questioning the effectivness of using a EWP. We were discussing how it worked.
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Originally Posted by Razor_Blade
The original poster questioned whether the EWP was worth it. I think it has been well established that with an EWP there is a significant reduction in parasitic losses resulting in more horsepower reaching the wheels. Most often there is enough gain that an ET reduction is realized.
You follow so far?
The generator reference was only an analogy. I'm sorry if it went over your head. That doesn't make me retarded.
Please take the time to reread my post that you quoted and point out where I said that an EWP slows anything down?
What? You can't find it!
I simply agreed with Camaro_ freak that the reason the EWP does not cause a drag, is because it moves less water. ''IF" the EWP used a big enough motor to move the same amount of water as the manual pump, there "WOULD" be more drag placed on the alernator, that "WOULD" offset the savings provided by removing the manual drive.
No one was questioning the effectivness of using a EWP. We were discussing how it worked.
You follow so far?
The generator reference was only an analogy. I'm sorry if it went over your head. That doesn't make me retarded.
Please take the time to reread my post that you quoted and point out where I said that an EWP slows anything down?
What? You can't find it!
I simply agreed with Camaro_ freak that the reason the EWP does not cause a drag, is because it moves less water. ''IF" the EWP used a big enough motor to move the same amount of water as the manual pump, there "WOULD" be more drag placed on the alernator, that "WOULD" offset the savings provided by removing the manual drive.
No one was questioning the effectivness of using a EWP. We were discussing how it worked.
that is where you are wrong though... it wouldnt slow it down if it pumped more water... same reason a car doesnt slow down when you put a radio that uses a bigger amp... and an amplifier takes a whole lot more power to run that a water pump.
Originally Posted by LT1nitrouZ
that is where you are wrong though... it wouldnt slow it down if it pumped more water... same reason a car doesnt slow down when you put a radio that uses a bigger amp... and an amplifier takes a whole lot more power to run that a water pump.
I won't argue with you, but I will suggest a little research if you don't believe adding current draw to the alternator increases drag. Have you ever noticed that, when using a running car to jump off a car with a dead battery, the running car will idle down when the jumper cables are attached? That is because the added current draw just made the alternator harder to turn. You also don't see many people going down the track or running on a dyno with their mega watt stereo blasting.
Best of luck! We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Thanks Razor for backing me up. Whether people want to believe it or not, it is a FACT that there is no free power with an electric pump. Whether it's shaft driven off the cam, belt driven off the crank, or driven from electricity via the alternator, the power is ultimately coming from the engine. Those that claim the load on the alternator is constant whether the pump is present or not are wrong. The gauge in the car measures voltage, not current. The voltage is almost constant because it is regulated - it is the current that increases. If you had an am-meter you would see that the alternator is doing more work with the EWP. The majority of the power gains from an EWP are from the pump turning slower at high rpm than a mechanical pump. And I'm not dis'ing electric water pumps. They are completely adequate for short high rpm, high load runs, and you will see HP gains as a result of using them.
The people that disagree need to go back to their high school physics book to learn that energy isn't free. For the record, I'm an electrical engineer with a master's degree, and have been designing electronics for 7 years.
The people that disagree need to go back to their high school physics book to learn that energy isn't free. For the record, I'm an electrical engineer with a master's degree, and have been designing electronics for 7 years.
Originally Posted by Camaro_freak
The people that disagree need to go back to their high school physics book to learn that energy isn't free. For the record, I'm an electrical engineer with a master's degree, and have been designing electronics for 7 years.
will someone explain to me what the amount of water has to do with this...the drag on the pump is not the question at hand... its the mechanical part of it, the drag on the valve train itsef... i see what your saying about more drag on the Epump needing more power to push it.... but you really are not going to even notice that.. so i dont see the arguments about the alternator...
Camaro Freak... im not disagreeing about energy not being free... but the built in regulator in the alt regulate the amount of power released... so if alittle power is needed... then the regulator will allow more as needed... but can only go as far as the alt will allow... now if we were talking about a sound system in the car... then i could see the problem... but with this pump... i dont see it...
Camaro Freak... im not disagreeing about energy not being free... but the built in regulator in the alt regulate the amount of power released... so if alittle power is needed... then the regulator will allow more as needed... but can only go as far as the alt will allow... now if we were talking about a sound system in the car... then i could see the problem... but with this pump... i dont see it...
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Originally Posted by harvickgm
will someone explain to me what the amount of water has to do with this...the drag on the pump is not the question at hand... its the mechanical part of it, the drag on the valve train itsef... i see what your saying about more drag on the Epump needing more power to push it.... but you really are not going to even notice that.. so i dont see the arguments about the alternator...
Camaro Freak... im not disagreeing about energy not being free... but the built in regulator in the alt regulate the amount of power released... so if alittle power is needed... then the regulator will allow more as needed... but can only go as far as the alt will allow... now if we were talking about a sound system in the car... then i could see the problem... but with this pump... i dont see it...
Camaro Freak... im not disagreeing about energy not being free... but the built in regulator in the alt regulate the amount of power released... so if alittle power is needed... then the regulator will allow more as needed... but can only go as far as the alt will allow... now if we were talking about a sound system in the car... then i could see the problem... but with this pump... i dont see it...
+1 A 60 amp alternator is not always putting out 60 amps. The rating represents the maximum amount of current it can supply while maintaining the desired output voltage of approximately 14V. If the load exceeds that rating, the alternator will no longer maintain 14V, and the excess current will come from the battery. A dead battery will consume more current from the alternator than a fully charged one. Razor illustrated this best when he pointed out that jump starting a dead car causes the running car's engine to bog down even before cranking the dead engine. That is because the alternator is now supplying more current to the dead battery (and any running accessories), which causes more load on the running engine.
I sent emails to both Meziere and CSR about this but haven't heard back yet. I'll post their responses if I ever get them.
I sent emails to both Meziere and CSR about this but haven't heard back yet. I'll post their responses if I ever get them.
Originally Posted by 99fordcobraguy
But if your car is making the extra power anyway, as every production car I can think of is there are no problems. Say an average small car has a 60 amp alternator and it takes a little under 30 amps to run the main systems of a car. The rest of the power is stored in the battery, or basically goes to waste. You aren't going to exceed the power your car can put out by adding an electric waterpump. Show me an alternator that "adjusts" it's power output at say 1500 rpm from 30 amps to 60 amps depending on the "load" especially by turning harder. It is simple turn alternator faster=more power. The alternator is directly linked to the engine via a belt, and you can't change it. I'm not an electrical engineer for seven years, but maybe it takes more energy to spin something and keep it going at 1000rpms than it does at 500rpms (not sure how fast average alternator turns) and that is what you are saying about the alternator turning harder? But in that sense a mechanical waterpump would turn even harder than the alternator because it is pushing water not air. The dyno doesn't lie, 10 rwhp is definatley woth $200. Go for it. It is inneficient in the first place to have an alternator producing extra current, that goes unused, if anything this will make it more efficient.
but our cars alt is rated at 124amps.... thats alot of amps... so the alt isnt going to be affected by the Epump... like i said i understand that energy isnt free... but you make it sound that the Epump is worse than the mechanical pump... when its been proven power with no effect in charging or drivability issues..
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Originally Posted by harvickgm
but our cars alt is rated at 124amps.... thats alot of amps... so the alt isnt going to be affected by the Epump... like i said i understand that energy isnt free... but you make it sound that the Epump is worse than the mechanical pump... when its been proven power with no effect in charging or drivability issues..
the parasitic loss of the altenator producing extra amps is VERY MINIMAL compared to a CAM turning the water pump.... even if the EWP pumps more water than the cam powered one. It is just a fact.... Electric power = less parasitic loss than mechanical power.
Originally Posted by harvickgm
but our cars alt is rated at 124amps.... thats alot of amps... so the alt isnt going to be affected by the Epump... like i said i understand that energy isnt free... but you make it sound that the Epump is worse than the mechanical pump... when its been proven power with no effect in charging or drivability issues..
harvickgm, Our cars may have a 124 amp alernator, but they are not putting out 124 amps all of the time. It sounds like you are thinking that the alternator operates at max output, and the regulator only sends out the needed amount of power. That is not how an alternator works.
If you are driving down the road with no power accessories running, the alternator is producing very little power and is virtually free wheeling. The alternator does not produce extra current. As you begin to turn on power accessories the alternators output increases. When the alternators output increases, it becomes harder to turn. It takes more work to generate more output from the alternator.
I don't think anyone is questioning the effectiveness of using a EWP to reduce parasitic losses. I certainly plan to add one to my car at some point.
Camaro_freak was only pointing out that they work by moving less water. This will make absolutely no sense to anyone that does not understand how the alternator works.
Originally Posted by LT1nitrouZ
It is just a fact.... Electric power = less parasitic loss than mechanical power.
I wonder why automotive engineers haven't started using electrical ac compressors and power steering pumps.
Can I use an electric motor to turn my Pro Charger?
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Originally Posted by Razor_Blade
I wonder why automotive engineers haven't started using electrical ac compressors and power steering pumps.
Can I use an electric motor to turn my Pro Charger?
Can I use an electric motor to turn my Pro Charger?
sure can.... if you figure out how to power a procharger w/ a minimal amout of power... think leaf blower (yeah its been done) but useless due to the fact that you cant power something like that w/ a 12 volt battery system, atleast not yet. It would take 100 amps of power to turn a useful supercharger. I might know more about this than you think.
Originally Posted by Razor_Blade
harvickgm, Our cars may have a 124 amp alernator, but they are not putting out 124 amps all of the time. It sounds like you are thinking that the alternator operates at max output, and the regulator only sends out the needed amount of power. That is not how an alternator works.
If you are driving down the road with no power accessories running, the alternator is producing very little power and is virtually free wheeling. The alternator does not produce extra current. As you begin to turn on power accessories the alternators output increases. When the alternators output increases, it becomes harder to turn. It takes more work to generate more output from the alternator.
I don't think anyone is questioning the effectiveness of using a EWP to reduce parasitic losses. I certainly plan to add one to my car at some point.
Camaro_freak was only pointing out that they work by moving less water. This will make absolutely no sense to anyone that does not understand how the alternator works.
If you are driving down the road with no power accessories running, the alternator is producing very little power and is virtually free wheeling. The alternator does not produce extra current. As you begin to turn on power accessories the alternators output increases. When the alternators output increases, it becomes harder to turn. It takes more work to generate more output from the alternator.
I don't think anyone is questioning the effectiveness of using a EWP to reduce parasitic losses. I certainly plan to add one to my car at some point.
Camaro_freak was only pointing out that they work by moving less water. This will make absolutely no sense to anyone that does not understand how the alternator works.
This has been an interesting discussion.
I have a question for the electrical engineers: would the parasitic drag caused from producing adequate amperage to power an EWP be lessened if an alternator with more total amperage output was used?
I have a question for the electrical engineers: would the parasitic drag caused from producing adequate amperage to power an EWP be lessened if an alternator with more total amperage output was used?
Originally Posted by thesoundandthefury
This has been an interesting discussion.
I have a question for the electrical engineers: would the parasitic drag caused from producing adequate amperage to power an EWP be lessened if an alternator with more total amperage output was used?
I have a question for the electrical engineers: would the parasitic drag caused from producing adequate amperage to power an EWP be lessened if an alternator with more total amperage output was used?
My original point was that if an EWP was turning the same rate as a mechanical pump at high engine rpm, it would benefit you NOTHING. In fact, I'm pretty confident it would be even worse than the mechanical pump due to the double conversion losses. The benefit is that it doesn't need to turn that fast to do the job, so it runs at a much lower speed than its mechanical counterpart and saves some ponies. If there were a mechanical pump that somehow slowed down to EWP flow rate at high rpm, then I bet that it would be an even better option than the EWP.
Originally Posted by LT1nitrouZ
sure can.... if you figure out how to power a procharger w/ a minimal amout of power... think leaf blower (yeah its been done) but useless due to the fact that you cant power something like that w/ a 12 volt battery system, atleast not yet. It would take 100 amps of power to turn a useful supercharger. I might know more about this than you think.