Troubleshooting sudden stall, starting problem
02-11-2007, 09:40 PM
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SES Code 41, Open Ignition Circuit, Car stalls I hope I got the right forum 
My '93 T/A has recently developed a starting/running problem that I'm having difficulty diagnosing. Twice over the past 3 weeks the car didn't start on the first crank--it has always started on the first crank for the past 9 years. The temperature at the time was very cold (around 5-10 degrees) and I thought it may have just been the cold coupled with the fact that I hadn't driven the car hardly at all over the prior 2 weeks of freezing temps. Then about two days later I was on the freeway the and let off the gas to slow down to about 45 mph due to traffic when all of the sudden the engine light came on and the engine cut out. I tried to start the engine again but it would just sit there and crank pretty quickly. I figured the battery was okay and eventually a tow truck stopped by in passing and he squirted some kind of spray into the intake while I turned it over and after a few attempts it started--running very rough, but running none the less as long as I kept the RPMs up around 1000.
He mentioned that I should check for a clogged fuel filter when I got it home; however, I'm somewhat skeptical because I changed the filter about 6 months prior when I rebuilt the top half of the LT1 while replacing a head gasket/sheared exhaust manifold bolt at 106,000 miles. I also suspected it might have been water in the gas tank, as the car sat in those freezing temps for about 2 weeks nearly empty. The car started fine the next day and I filled up with a fresh tank of gas and all was good for about 2 days. Then the car didn't want to start again. It looked like the battery may be weak, even though it also was only 6 months old. The voltage meter dropped down to about 8 volts when starting, although the car did crank over relatively quick. I jumped the battery with my odyssey after charging for about 10 minutes and the car started... The car turned over slightly faster, but didn't seem to be much different. Perhaps it was just coincidence that it started....
So then, a few days later I'm leaving for work in the morning in the snow with a temp of about 27 degrees. I come up to a stop sign about a mile from my home, start accelerating and once I hit about 30 mph the engine kills again just like on the freeway and throws the check engine light--it was just as if I had turned the key to off...
Trying to restart resulted in the engine just cranking over repeatedly, but no start. Later that afternoon I returned and tried to troubleshoot it a bit more. All of the wires I could see from up top appeared to be in place. A guy helped me out by loosening the fuel bleeder screw on the intake and verified that I'm getting fuel (I thought it might be the fuel pump going out) as I'd crank it over. So it seems like I'm getting air and fuel, but perhaps no spark.
I tow it home that night and waited a few days for the temp to warm up. Yesterday, I figure I'll give diagnostics a try again. I start by disconnecting the negative battery terminal, pulling off the coil, thinking it may be the coil or the ignition control module. I realize that in order to check the coil, I need to have juice going to it, so I put it back on and try and try to get a reading off the coil terminals. I can't get anything on the meter, so I hook power connectors back on and crank it--it turns out that I forgot to put the coil wire back on and I actually here a spark, spark, spark, as the engine is turning over. Ooops... I put the coil wire back on and crank it again and it starts immediately. Great... It's running and I have no idea what happened...
I decide to let it idle for 20 minutes and see if it will die. It doesn't. I kill the motor, start it again and it fires right up. I wait 15 minutes and crank it again and it turns over about two cycles and then starts. I kill it, and restart again with no delay or problems. I resign my attempts for the afternoon and come back out about 6 hours later and guess what.... it turns over but it will not start!
Okay, so I'm now quite confused and could use the expertise of you fellow f-buds. I haven't checked for codes yet, so I will do that tomorrow and see if I'm getting a code thrown on something like the optical sensor in the optispark. The car does have the original optispark on it, so I know it could be a likely candidate, but given that the car went from running great to not starting overnight I'm not sure if that's it (even though I realize I've been luck putting 100k on it without opti issues). I think I read that if the optical pickup sensor goes out, the PCM won't send a signal for a spark.
So what I need help with is isolating whether the problem is the something electrical I'm not considering, the coil, ignition control module, wires, battery, the PCM, or heaven forbid the opti that I could have replaced when I had everything apart 6 months earlier. Could it be water in the gas still? How about the fuel filter or pump? The car has passed emissions the past two years, but required two tries both times (even after the rebuild with new wires, plugs, filters, o-rings on fuel rail, etc).
UPDATE: I flashed the trouble codes, which displayed 4 fast flashes and then 1 flash, 3 times. I'm assuming this is a code 41--is that correct? According to this page (http://shbox.com/1/Dtcs.htm) it says that a code 41 is the following:
Ignition Control (IC) circuit (open circuit)
If you're still reading this epic email and have any suggestions it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks,
Dan
'93 T/A A4 3.23
'94 Formula M6
'91 Firebird
My '93 T/A has recently developed a starting/running problem that I'm having difficulty diagnosing. Twice over the past 3 weeks the car didn't start on the first crank--it has always started on the first crank for the past 9 years. The temperature at the time was very cold (around 5-10 degrees) and I thought it may have just been the cold coupled with the fact that I hadn't driven the car hardly at all over the prior 2 weeks of freezing temps. Then about two days later I was on the freeway the and let off the gas to slow down to about 45 mph due to traffic when all of the sudden the engine light came on and the engine cut out. I tried to start the engine again but it would just sit there and crank pretty quickly. I figured the battery was okay and eventually a tow truck stopped by in passing and he squirted some kind of spray into the intake while I turned it over and after a few attempts it started--running very rough, but running none the less as long as I kept the RPMs up around 1000.
He mentioned that I should check for a clogged fuel filter when I got it home; however, I'm somewhat skeptical because I changed the filter about 6 months prior when I rebuilt the top half of the LT1 while replacing a head gasket/sheared exhaust manifold bolt at 106,000 miles. I also suspected it might have been water in the gas tank, as the car sat in those freezing temps for about 2 weeks nearly empty. The car started fine the next day and I filled up with a fresh tank of gas and all was good for about 2 days. Then the car didn't want to start again. It looked like the battery may be weak, even though it also was only 6 months old. The voltage meter dropped down to about 8 volts when starting, although the car did crank over relatively quick. I jumped the battery with my odyssey after charging for about 10 minutes and the car started... The car turned over slightly faster, but didn't seem to be much different. Perhaps it was just coincidence that it started....
So then, a few days later I'm leaving for work in the morning in the snow with a temp of about 27 degrees. I come up to a stop sign about a mile from my home, start accelerating and once I hit about 30 mph the engine kills again just like on the freeway and throws the check engine light--it was just as if I had turned the key to off...
Trying to restart resulted in the engine just cranking over repeatedly, but no start. Later that afternoon I returned and tried to troubleshoot it a bit more. All of the wires I could see from up top appeared to be in place. A guy helped me out by loosening the fuel bleeder screw on the intake and verified that I'm getting fuel (I thought it might be the fuel pump going out) as I'd crank it over. So it seems like I'm getting air and fuel, but perhaps no spark.
I tow it home that night and waited a few days for the temp to warm up. Yesterday, I figure I'll give diagnostics a try again. I start by disconnecting the negative battery terminal, pulling off the coil, thinking it may be the coil or the ignition control module. I realize that in order to check the coil, I need to have juice going to it, so I put it back on and try and try to get a reading off the coil terminals. I can't get anything on the meter, so I hook power connectors back on and crank it--it turns out that I forgot to put the coil wire back on and I actually here a spark, spark, spark, as the engine is turning over. Ooops... I put the coil wire back on and crank it again and it starts immediately. Great... It's running and I have no idea what happened...
I decide to let it idle for 20 minutes and see if it will die. It doesn't. I kill the motor, start it again and it fires right up. I wait 15 minutes and crank it again and it turns over about two cycles and then starts. I kill it, and restart again with no delay or problems. I resign my attempts for the afternoon and come back out about 6 hours later and guess what.... it turns over but it will not start!
Okay, so I'm now quite confused and could use the expertise of you fellow f-buds. I haven't checked for codes yet, so I will do that tomorrow and see if I'm getting a code thrown on something like the optical sensor in the optispark. The car does have the original optispark on it, so I know it could be a likely candidate, but given that the car went from running great to not starting overnight I'm not sure if that's it (even though I realize I've been luck putting 100k on it without opti issues). I think I read that if the optical pickup sensor goes out, the PCM won't send a signal for a spark.
So what I need help with is isolating whether the problem is the something electrical I'm not considering, the coil, ignition control module, wires, battery, the PCM, or heaven forbid the opti that I could have replaced when I had everything apart 6 months earlier. Could it be water in the gas still? How about the fuel filter or pump? The car has passed emissions the past two years, but required two tries both times (even after the rebuild with new wires, plugs, filters, o-rings on fuel rail, etc).
UPDATE: I flashed the trouble codes, which displayed 4 fast flashes and then 1 flash, 3 times. I'm assuming this is a code 41--is that correct? According to this page (http://shbox.com/1/Dtcs.htm) it says that a code 41 is the following:
Ignition Control (IC) circuit (open circuit)
If you're still reading this epic email and have any suggestions it would be greatly appreciated! Thanks,
Dan
'93 T/A A4 3.23
'94 Formula M6
'91 Firebird
Last edited by FraggleRock; 02-17-2007 at 11:09 PM. Reason: More accurate title
02-12-2007, 01:16 AM
#2
I would probably try changing the fuel filter for a start because it could still have water in the tank and also if somehow you got a slug of dirt in it, it could be moving around enough to clog the feed line at various times. Do you have anyway to check the pressure off the schrader valve? If so check it and see what you got with the key forward, and then with the car running. I wouldnt rule out the ICM either as sometimes when they are about to go out they will quit working when they get hot. Shoebox has some instructions on spacing it out away from the head a bit with some washers to keep the heat off it. You can check his site out at www.shbox.com He also has some diagnostic tips to check out the optispark and see if your getting the correct signals. Also for a quick check make sure your Opti harness is in good shape and is connected good, cause if its loose for some reason it could cause the issues your having.
02-17-2007, 01:52 PM
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Trouble code 41(?) retrieved, additional symptoms Thanks for the suggestions. I flashed the trouble codes, which displayed 4 fast flashes and then 1 flash, 3 times. I'm assuming this is a code 41--is that correct? According to this page (http://shbox.com/1/Dtcs.htm) it says that a code 41 is the following:
Ignition Control (IC) circuit (open circuit)
So does that mean my the ignition control module is faulty or that there is some sort of electrical problem elsewhere? Perhaps it's not the opti afterall? One thing I noticed (it started again after unplugging a bunch of connectors and verifying continuity, voltages, etc), is that occassionally when I start it the engine it will idle really low--like below 500 rpm and idle rough. Stopping and restarting will ofter raise the idle up to 600-700ish and it seems fine.
Any more suggestions? I did pick put a bottle of HEET in the gas tank to handle moisture in the tank and fuel lines. I've also picked up a new fuel filter, but haven't installed it yet. Thanks!
Ignition Control (IC) circuit (open circuit)
So does that mean my the ignition control module is faulty or that there is some sort of electrical problem elsewhere? Perhaps it's not the opti afterall? One thing I noticed (it started again after unplugging a bunch of connectors and verifying continuity, voltages, etc), is that occassionally when I start it the engine it will idle really low--like below 500 rpm and idle rough. Stopping and restarting will ofter raise the idle up to 600-700ish and it seems fine.
Any more suggestions? I did pick put a bottle of HEET in the gas tank to handle moisture in the tank and fuel lines. I've also picked up a new fuel filter, but haven't installed it yet. Thanks!
