New LT1 Intake
On The Tree
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
From: Socal
Thoughts:
Have you ever tooled up a complex molded composite part like a FAST manifold? You are not talking 5 figures, you are talking 6 as in $100,000 and up. That's after your development costs. You can't make changes easily after it's tooled. Now divide those costs by the number of manifolds you can reasonable expect to sell in the first two years and add that to the normal selling price. At just $100,000 tooling, and 200 mainfolds, that's a $500 add-on to each. Personally I think 200 manifolds would be high.
If you are looking at carbon fiber, even hand laid up, you are talking part costs well into 4 figures per each, as well as maybe $5-10K of molds.
There is no where near the demand for LT1 intakes compared to LS engines by a factor of hundreds. That's why we don't see them. Hey, it's a great idea, but when they cost over $1000, you'll be lucky to sell a dozen.
Hey, maybe you are made of money and don't mind losing a ton of it. If that is the case, go for it, and offer the manifolds at the street price of a FAST. You'll lose a lot on each sale...but you can make it up in volume.
Have you ever tooled up a complex molded composite part like a FAST manifold? You are not talking 5 figures, you are talking 6 as in $100,000 and up. That's after your development costs. You can't make changes easily after it's tooled. Now divide those costs by the number of manifolds you can reasonable expect to sell in the first two years and add that to the normal selling price. At just $100,000 tooling, and 200 mainfolds, that's a $500 add-on to each. Personally I think 200 manifolds would be high.
If you are looking at carbon fiber, even hand laid up, you are talking part costs well into 4 figures per each, as well as maybe $5-10K of molds.
There is no where near the demand for LT1 intakes compared to LS engines by a factor of hundreds. That's why we don't see them. Hey, it's a great idea, but when they cost over $1000, you'll be lucky to sell a dozen.
Hey, maybe you are made of money and don't mind losing a ton of it. If that is the case, go for it, and offer the manifolds at the street price of a FAST. You'll lose a lot on each sale...but you can make it up in volume.
IMHO if this was actually a worth while part than more than 200 people would buy it... big deal if LS parts are in more demand than LT stuff, how many LT's are out there? Also how many LT owners put performance parts on there cars? I think a hell of a lot more than 200...
I don't think he mentioned carbon fiber, from what I read it was only composite plastic and aluminum, and if bought in bulk most materials can be got at a fair price...
if it's going to be metal don't even do it... Heat soak is the biggest problem on lt1 intakes other than flow and there are already hogan sheetmetal intakes and other companies etc..that make metal ones.
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Verdad Gallardo
Awesome K5 Blazer Restomod Comes With C7 Corvette Power
Verdad Gallardo
10 Camaros You Should Never Buy
10 LS Engine Myths That Refuse to Die
Verdad Gallardo
bamf LT1 Intake, hahaha
I will buy one if it adds 15rwhp on a cammed car, 10rwhp on a bolt on car, 5rwhp on a stock car - for $500. Everyone has pretty much mentioned what it needs to be, my only addition would be to keep the price down, because the LT1 market is made up of people who are not filthy rich, and are smart with their money - there is a reason why we don't own LS1's, and don't need to own LS1's. So keep the price down, and this thing will be a hit.
I will buy one if it adds 15rwhp on a cammed car, 10rwhp on a bolt on car, 5rwhp on a stock car - for $500. Everyone has pretty much mentioned what it needs to be, my only addition would be to keep the price down, because the LT1 market is made up of people who are not filthy rich, and are smart with their money - there is a reason why we don't own LS1's, and don't need to own LS1's. So keep the price down, and this thing will be a hit.
you say this will cost 6 figures and he will lose most of his money? If he sells them at 500 a pop that all he has to do is sell 200 and he breaks even.
IMHO if this was actually a worth while part than more than 200 people would buy it... big deal if LS parts are in more demand than LT stuff, how many LT's are out there? Also how many LT owners put performance parts on there cars? I think a hell of a lot more than 200...
I don't think he mentioned carbon fiber, from what I read it was only composite plastic and aluminum, and if bought in bulk most materials can be got at a fair price...
IMHO if this was actually a worth while part than more than 200 people would buy it... big deal if LS parts are in more demand than LT stuff, how many LT's are out there? Also how many LT owners put performance parts on there cars? I think a hell of a lot more than 200...
I don't think he mentioned carbon fiber, from what I read it was only composite plastic and aluminum, and if bought in bulk most materials can be got at a fair price...
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,979
Likes: 3
From: Upstate NY
IMHO if this was actually a worth while part than more than 200 people would buy it... big deal if LS parts are in more demand than LT stuff, how many LT's are out there? Also how many LT owners put performance parts on there cars? I think a hell of a lot more than 200...
I don't think he mentioned carbon fiber, from what I read it was only composite plastic and aluminum, and if bought in bulk most materials can be got at a fair price...
I don't think he mentioned carbon fiber, from what I read it was only composite plastic and aluminum, and if bought in bulk most materials can be got at a fair price...
Either way, or even using sand cast aluminum and CNC machining, $500 is a joke. The best aluminum foundry available for stuff like manifolds is owned and operated by....Edelbrock. You ain't going to get a super deal from Vic for a manifold casting which competes with his.
Econ 101 says as you need to increase the price, the potential sales go down. If $1500 is actually more realistic, your sales expectations approach two figures (>100) or maybe less. I'm not sure if Vic will break even on his LT1 manifold and he does cast aluminum manifolds as well as anyone....better than most.
Would you really pay $100/hp gained for a manifold? If a ported LT1 isn't sufficient, a converted SBC single plane is more reasonable and has the good runner lengths for intake ramming.
It's rare that Econ majors (or minors) get into engine building. That's too bad. It would keep more of them in business.
Thread Starter
Banned
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Well that might pay the tooling bill, but not the production cost. Oh, a little profit might be nice, too.
Evidently you don't buy a lot of aluminum or do much composite molding. There is a reason a good "sheet metal" or CNC machnined aluminum manifold costs 7-8 times the $500 figure. A part of it is the raw material cost. You either machine away 85-90% of the billet aluminum or spend lots of time forming, welding and machining the aluminum. Composite requires the exten$ive mold costs.
Either way, or even using sand cast aluminum and CNC machining, $500 is a joke. The best aluminum foundry available for stuff like manifolds is owned and operated by....Edelbrock. You ain't going to get a super deal from Vic for a manifold casting which competes with his.
Econ 101 says as you need to increase the price, the potential sales go down. If $1500 is actually more realistic, your sales expectations approach two figures (>100) or maybe less. I'm not sure if Vic will break even on his LT1 manifold and he does cast aluminum manifolds as well as anyone....better than most.
Would you really pay $100/hp gained for a manifold? If a ported LT1 isn't sufficient, a converted SBC single plane is more reasonable and has the good runner lengths for intake ramming.
It's rare that Econ majors (or minors) get into engine building. That's too bad. It would keep more of them in business.
Evidently you don't buy a lot of aluminum or do much composite molding. There is a reason a good "sheet metal" or CNC machnined aluminum manifold costs 7-8 times the $500 figure. A part of it is the raw material cost. You either machine away 85-90% of the billet aluminum or spend lots of time forming, welding and machining the aluminum. Composite requires the exten$ive mold costs.
Either way, or even using sand cast aluminum and CNC machining, $500 is a joke. The best aluminum foundry available for stuff like manifolds is owned and operated by....Edelbrock. You ain't going to get a super deal from Vic for a manifold casting which competes with his.
Econ 101 says as you need to increase the price, the potential sales go down. If $1500 is actually more realistic, your sales expectations approach two figures (>100) or maybe less. I'm not sure if Vic will break even on his LT1 manifold and he does cast aluminum manifolds as well as anyone....better than most.
Would you really pay $100/hp gained for a manifold? If a ported LT1 isn't sufficient, a converted SBC single plane is more reasonable and has the good runner lengths for intake ramming.
It's rare that Econ majors (or minors) get into engine building. That's too bad. It would keep more of them in business.
. The only real expense would come in contracting somebody to build numerous amount of units if the demand is very high which corps have to do every time out and still have to worry about turning a significant profit not only for them, but their shareholders as well. 
Well that might pay the tooling bill, but not the production cost. Oh, a little profit might be nice, too.
Evidently you don't buy a lot of aluminum or do much composite molding. There is a reason a good "sheet metal" or CNC machnined aluminum manifold costs 7-8 times the $500 figure. A part of it is the raw material cost. You either machine away 85-90% of the billet aluminum or spend lots of time forming, welding and machining the aluminum. Composite requires the exten$ive mold costs.
Either way, or even using sand cast aluminum and CNC machining, $500 is a joke. The best aluminum foundry available for stuff like manifolds is owned and operated by....Edelbrock. You ain't going to get a super deal from Vic for a manifold casting which competes with his.
Econ 101 says as you need to increase the price, the potential sales go down. If $1500 is actually more realistic, your sales expectations approach two figures (>100) or maybe less. I'm not sure if Vic will break even on his LT1 manifold and he does cast aluminum manifolds as well as anyone....better than most.
Would you really pay $100/hp gained for a manifold? If a ported LT1 isn't sufficient, a converted SBC single plane is more reasonable and has the good runner lengths for intake ramming.
It's rare that Econ majors (or minors) get into engine building. That's too bad. It would keep more of them in business.
Evidently you don't buy a lot of aluminum or do much composite molding. There is a reason a good "sheet metal" or CNC machnined aluminum manifold costs 7-8 times the $500 figure. A part of it is the raw material cost. You either machine away 85-90% of the billet aluminum or spend lots of time forming, welding and machining the aluminum. Composite requires the exten$ive mold costs.
Either way, or even using sand cast aluminum and CNC machining, $500 is a joke. The best aluminum foundry available for stuff like manifolds is owned and operated by....Edelbrock. You ain't going to get a super deal from Vic for a manifold casting which competes with his.
Econ 101 says as you need to increase the price, the potential sales go down. If $1500 is actually more realistic, your sales expectations approach two figures (>100) or maybe less. I'm not sure if Vic will break even on his LT1 manifold and he does cast aluminum manifolds as well as anyone....better than most.
Would you really pay $100/hp gained for a manifold? If a ported LT1 isn't sufficient, a converted SBC single plane is more reasonable and has the good runner lengths for intake ramming.
It's rare that Econ majors (or minors) get into engine building. That's too bad. It would keep more of them in business.
In my opinion, your overhead estimates are very high, especially since the designing part can be done with some AutoCad while sitting in front of a TV. The only real costs as mentioned is in the production of the mold and, assuming they do not run the part themselves, the costs of labor for someone else to run it.
Also, once into production, the market for a product such as this is much higher than you predicted (i.e. 200 sold). There is no other product in existence that is in anyway similar to this. Edelbrock tried and failed to make a better product because they basically used the same design as the stock manifold. You may be able to find a better product in a sheetmetal or billet manifold, however, that market is extremely small because very few people are willing to spend the $$$.
Imagine how many LT1's there are in the world, then imagine how many of would love to make more power. I guarantee your market is larger than 200. This product would have a monopoly in the LT1 intake manifold market.
I personally have been waiting for someone to have the ***** to design and create a product like this. 1: This product has been proven to be a great design (look at all of the LS's), and 2: This product would take a significant amount of weight off the front end.
While my expectations are high, I feel as though this may be another one of those ideas that may never materialize and my hopes will be dashed one again. Good luck to the builder, and please, push through the negative talk and think about the amount of people that have been waiting for this product.
Mike