Input with making a stock headed cam guide
12-10-2007, 12:40 AM
#22
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Well, nothing wrong with a 5/16". I have 5/16" chromoly on all my motors and they run dang good (either Trick Flow brand or Comp Cams....bleck).
I guess I should have verified prior to posting that Ai packages all come with 3/8". Sorry about that mistake.
I've been getting spoiled by Ai the past few years though for my customer motors. Ai sets me up with 3/8" Ai pushrods probably because all my motors use shaft rockers and Ai/TFS heads.
I guess I should have verified prior to posting that Ai packages all come with 3/8". Sorry about that mistake.
I've been getting spoiled by Ai the past few years though for my customer motors. Ai sets me up with 3/8" Ai pushrods probably because all my motors use shaft rockers and Ai/TFS heads.
12-10-2007, 12:16 PM
#23
The custom cams are more popular with guys running heads but this is all about stock heads. A custom cam would be the optimal choice in any setup regardless of stock heads or ported/aftermarket heads but for the guys on a tight budget looking for a proven cam, the off the shelf stuff is great. Perhaps I should emphasize on custom cams more, and I will. Also there isn't really any newer cams just the old off the shelf stuff but they perform, my cars runs like a **** with the cc503 and its an older cam. There are several people who run or have hit 11's with the stock heads running these more older common cams so they perform so they should be on the list without doubt. The crane 227 which aint new held the cam only record for the longest time. As for being anti-large, this is about running a cam to its highest potential on stock heads spinning safe rpm's so obviously it may come off as being anti-large. No doubt if someone wanted to risk shifting that stock short block to 6700/6800 all day long for an extended period of time they would out perform all these cams with say a gm847 but thats not exactly a good idea.
Last edited by StealthFormula; 12-10-2007 at 12:22 PM.
12-10-2007, 12:19 PM
#24
Karl you posted good info, the 1st posting just sounded a lil to cut n dry for noobs and I dont want them to think thats there only options etc
Thanks for making this thread
Thanks for making this thread
12-10-2007, 12:22 PM
#25
The custom cams are more popular with guys running heads but this is all about stock heads. A custom cam would be the optimal choice in any setup regardless of stock heads or ported/aftermarket heads but for the guys on a tight budget looking for a proven cam, the off the shelf stuff is great. Perhaps I should emphasize on custom cams more, and I will. Also there isn't really any newer cams just the old off the shelf stuff but they perform, my cars runs like a **** with the cc503 and its an older cam.
Well this didnt seem like a budget thread, he was talking about stock heads and cams. So customs cams is perfectly fine to include in this. I agree older cams work perfectly fine. But seeing 1/4 mile times and some power numbers from custom cam guys....Is pretty impressive on how much more you can have if you spend a lil more.
We need to keep the LT1 world OPEN to New things so we dont stay stuck.
12-10-2007, 12:28 PM
#26
Well this didnt seem like a budget thread, he was talking about stock heads and cams. So customs cams is perfectly fine to include in this. I agree older cams work perfectly fine. But seeing 1/4 mile times and some power numbers from custom cam guys....Is pretty impressive on how much more you can have if you spend a lil more.
We need to keep the LT1 world OPEN to New things so we dont stay stuck.
We need to keep the LT1 world OPEN to New things so we dont stay stuck.
Karl Ellwein: thanks for your input with the pushrods and the custom cam thought I will use them.
Last edited by StealthFormula; 12-10-2007 at 01:06 PM.
12-10-2007, 12:31 PM
#27
This is pretty good buddy, I really got to give it to ya. On LS1tech, there is so much info on LS1 cams, but nothing on LT1s, so this should be stickied and hopefully a lot of people will read it.
I like what I see, but it can obviously be better. My main concern is the two trains of though butting heads here which is of course the big cams versus the small cams relative to track times and dyno numbers. Its a shame we cannot statistically test all these different cams in controlled environments with perfect data to back up our tests, and then formulate conclusions based off of our data. Instead you kinda have to go off of what other people say using what little non scientific to little scientific data you have. Thats what always kept me away from doing something like this.
However you really nailed it when you said that these smaller cams will perform better than bigger cams when shifted below 6200RPM. I think that is the most critical part of this whole project and you should stress it as much as possible.
As far as the description of the cams, you should have some kind of list that you go off of when you describe them. Cams are so abstract so its hard to describe them, but when you answer certain points I think it becomes easier, especially when you answer specific questions that everyone wants to know. These include:
*low mid or high end power levels, or a combination
*shift points
*does it idle well or is it choppy, and what is the ideal rpm to set it at
*passing emissions
*is the lift high enough that I have to use a certain spring or does the cam require something special?
*tuning
*sound
*better for an M6 or an A4
*required stall RPM
Hopefully people can add to those but thats what I personally look for in a cam. I think if you answer those questions, you will have a very nice format, that is clear and easy to read.
Good luck and I will add more in later as your work progresses.
I like what I see, but it can obviously be better. My main concern is the two trains of though butting heads here which is of course the big cams versus the small cams relative to track times and dyno numbers. Its a shame we cannot statistically test all these different cams in controlled environments with perfect data to back up our tests, and then formulate conclusions based off of our data. Instead you kinda have to go off of what other people say using what little non scientific to little scientific data you have. Thats what always kept me away from doing something like this.
However you really nailed it when you said that these smaller cams will perform better than bigger cams when shifted below 6200RPM. I think that is the most critical part of this whole project and you should stress it as much as possible.
As far as the description of the cams, you should have some kind of list that you go off of when you describe them. Cams are so abstract so its hard to describe them, but when you answer certain points I think it becomes easier, especially when you answer specific questions that everyone wants to know. These include:
*low mid or high end power levels, or a combination
*shift points
*does it idle well or is it choppy, and what is the ideal rpm to set it at
*passing emissions
*is the lift high enough that I have to use a certain spring or does the cam require something special?
*tuning
*sound
*better for an M6 or an A4
*required stall RPM
Hopefully people can add to those but thats what I personally look for in a cam. I think if you answer those questions, you will have a very nice format, that is clear and easy to read.
Good luck and I will add more in later as your work progresses.
on a side note: I have updated the thread with new information/changes etc. but haven't yet posted it up I have it saved to word but will have it up tonight or tomorrow
Last edited by StealthFormula; 12-10-2007 at 01:05 PM.
12-10-2007, 02:49 PM
#28
i had a custom cam, and it was not bad, but it never ran right. it required beehives because of the high lift, and didn't lope as much as my 503. the power level was pretty similar, but it never ran right as the custom cam designer gave me a setup that really didnt work well.
what does that mean? if you get a custom cam from someone, I highly recommend that they install it in your car, as well as tune, otherwise, I think its a waste of money.
Custom cams can give you better driveability and power under the curve and what not, but all of that can be achieved with a valve job, more compression, free mods, or other little things that people over look. Just thought I would add that.
what does that mean? if you get a custom cam from someone, I highly recommend that they install it in your car, as well as tune, otherwise, I think its a waste of money.
Custom cams can give you better driveability and power under the curve and what not, but all of that can be achieved with a valve job, more compression, free mods, or other little things that people over look. Just thought I would add that.
12-11-2007, 07:57 AM
#29
6300 is about as high as you want to go on the stock bottom end! this means if you have a cc306 and stock bottom end you are going to end up spinning a bearing.
Do NOT get a cc306 if you want to shift at <6300 you will not make power and you will get beat by lesser cars because you are simply not making hp under that rpm range. don't be one of those morons with a huge cam shifting at 6200 making lt1's look bad.
Do NOT get a cc306 if you want to shift at <6300 you will not make power and you will get beat by lesser cars because you are simply not making hp under that rpm range. don't be one of those morons with a huge cam shifting at 6200 making lt1's look bad.
12-11-2007, 08:08 AM
#30
i had a custom cam, and it was not bad, but it never ran right. it required beehives because of the high lift, and didn't lope as much as my 503. the power level was pretty similar, but it never ran right as the custom cam designer gave me a setup that really didnt work well.
what does that mean? if you get a custom cam from someone, I highly recommend that they install it in your car, as well as tune, otherwise, I think its a waste of money.
Custom cams can give you better driveability and power under the curve and what not, but all of that can be achieved with a valve job, more compression, free mods, or other little things that people over look. Just thought I would add that.
what does that mean? if you get a custom cam from someone, I highly recommend that they install it in your car, as well as tune, otherwise, I think its a waste of money.
Custom cams can give you better driveability and power under the curve and what not, but all of that can be achieved with a valve job, more compression, free mods, or other little things that people over look. Just thought I would add that.
And you need to know who you are dealing with, sounds like somone thought they knew but just didnt get it right
12-11-2007, 02:06 PM
#31
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For years I had the stockhead record at 11.40 116 with the crane 210/224. The car was very streetable and stealth (not noticable in traffic). I decided to go the custom cam route. Joe O and I tossed ideas around and he came up with a ground that would work. The cam is more radical (but does well in traffic) and not stealth at all(it hits hard) however I did run 11.15 118.96 with it. That run is with the stock transmission,stock suspension except right rear airbag,bias ply tires,on a well prepared track in minus da weather. I highly recommend the Crane 210/224 for most applications. The car went a 1.48 60ft with the old cam and felt like it had more bottomend power. By the way I shift both cams at 6200 and have 3.73 gears. Good luck Frank95z
12-11-2007, 04:44 PM
#32
TECH Fanatic
Jon
12-11-2007, 06:21 PM
#33
For years I had the stockhead record at 11.40 116 with the crane 210/224. The car was very streetable and stealth (not noticable in traffic). I decided to go the custom cam route. Joe O and I tossed ideas around and he came up with a ground that would work. The cam is more radical (but does well in traffic) and not stealth at all(it hits hard) however I did run 11.15 118.96 with it. That run is with the stock transmission,stock suspension except right rear airbag,bias ply tires,on a well prepared track in minus da weather. I highly recommend the Crane 210/224 for most applications. The car went a 1.48 60ft with the old cam and felt like it had more bottomend power. By the way I shift both cams at 6200 and have 3.73 gears. Good luck Frank95z
12-11-2007, 07:26 PM
#34
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12-11-2007, 09:11 PM
#35
The car was very streetable and stealth (not noticable in traffic)
Thats how my 272/272 hks cams were in my dsm, slight lope at idle when tuned right and no one noticed it in traffic
Thats how my 272/272 hks cams were in my dsm, slight lope at idle when tuned right and no one noticed it in traffic
12-11-2007, 09:42 PM
#36
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stealth formula the 210/224 has a slight lope but not very noticable. It is a much better cam for everyday street driving because it makes good power at low rpms (street driving). My custom cam has a real choppy idle and doesn't seem to have as much power at low speeds. Now when you step on it thats a different story 
Frank95z
Frank95z
12-11-2007, 10:01 PM
#37
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BTW, you look pretty fit for 46.
When Bret quotes his cam specs, he pretty much rounds to the nearest "decade" also.
Jon
12-16-2007, 03:00 PM
#38
Part 2: The Components Needed For A Cam Swap
The following are the recommended/required components needed for doing a cam swap on stock heads. The valvetrain is not a good place to cut corners with. It is realized that most of you are working with a budget; however it is recommended to do it right the first time, so it can all be done one time and one time only.
A. Valve Springs:
Purpose: Help maintain valve control.
Benefit of Upgrading: Upgrading the valve springs is ABSOLUTELY mandatory in doing a cam swap. The stock valve springs CANNOT handle any more lift than the stock cam puts out as well as a cam with a more aggressive lobe design.
Required: YES.
Popular Choices: Crane Dual Spring Kit 10308-1 (includes locks, retainers, shims), Comp Cams 918's, Comp Cams 987's.
Note: Make sure the valve springs you purchase have a max lift rating higher than of the camshaft you have/want. Along with valve springs, you will need locks, retainers, shims, and valve stem seals (16). The LT4 valve springs located in the LT4 "hot cam" kit should NOT be considered to be ran with any cam due to the fact they are known to be very weak and only have a max lift rating of .540 which is not high enough for most off the-shelf camshafts.
B. Roller Rockers:
Purpose: Transfers the motion of the cam along the pushrods and assists the valves to open.
Benefit of Upgrading: Upgrading from the stock 1.5RR's to 1.6RR's will increase the lift that the camshaft is putting out as well as producing an extra degree or two of duration at the valve and increased overlap. Ex: Lift of cc503 w/1.5 RR's = (.503/.510) divide by 1.5 then multiply that number by 1.6 to get lift with 1.6RR's = (.535/.544).
Required? No, but highly recommended.
Popular Choices: Crane Golds, Comp Cams Magnums, Comp Cams Pro-Magnums.
SA or NSA?: Self-Aligning should work fine for any of the cams listed above. Non-Self Aligning is cheap insurance that can handle high rpm rev's better because the use of guideplates will ensure that the rockers cannot slip off the valve tips. NSA use 7/16" studs which is stronger than the 3/8" studs that most SA rockers have. Non-Self Aligning will require the use of hardened chromemoly pushrods and guideplates (8).
C. Pushrods:
Purpose: Transfers the motion of the cam to the roller rockers.
Benefit of Upgrading: A stiffer pushrod helps to reduce pushrod "flex" and along with the valve springs helps to keep the valves under proper control and away from valve float and uncontrolled harmonics.
Required?: No, but highly recommended.
Popular Choices: Chromemoly 5/16" or 3/8" outside diameter. Hardened chromemoly pushrods required if using guide plates.
Note: LT1's with stock heads use 7.200" pushrods.
D. Lifters:
Purpose: Rides along the lobes as the cam spins around and follows cam up the lobe ramp which pushes the pushrods up.
Benefit of Upgrading: Over time with higher mileage motors the lifters tend to wear out.
Required?: No, highly recommended for higher mileage motors.
Popular Choices: GM LS7 lifters, Comp Cams hydraulic roller, Crane Cams hydraulic roller.
E. Others:
Gaskets: The following gaskets will be needed: front timing cover gasket, optispark seal, crank seal, water pump drive seal, egr gaskets, throttle body gasket, intake manifold gasket, valve cover gaskets, water pump gaskets.
Timing Chain: Over time the stock timing chain wears and can develop slack. It is highly recommended to swap out the chain for a new one. A stock LT1 replacement chain from GM will do just fine.
Note: An LT4 timing chain will not fit on LT1 sprockets.
Optispark: If the optispark has not yet been changed it is a good idea doing so at this point. Whether you're doing the cam swap yourself or having it done by a shop, the optispark distributor has to come off. Therefore, it is the easiest time to replace it if your doing it yourself and will save you time and effort in the long run. If your having a shop do the swap it will not cost you an extra money to have it installed considering the old one comes off and gets re-installed again which will save you money of having it done again down the road.
Water Pump: Same goes with the water pump as with the optispark. If the mileage is getting up there or the pump is starting to show signs of leaking this is the time to replace it. It will save you time, effort, and money to do it at this time.
The following are the recommended/required components needed for doing a cam swap on stock heads. The valvetrain is not a good place to cut corners with. It is realized that most of you are working with a budget; however it is recommended to do it right the first time, so it can all be done one time and one time only.
A. Valve Springs:
Purpose: Help maintain valve control.
Benefit of Upgrading: Upgrading the valve springs is ABSOLUTELY mandatory in doing a cam swap. The stock valve springs CANNOT handle any more lift than the stock cam puts out as well as a cam with a more aggressive lobe design.
Required: YES.
Popular Choices: Crane Dual Spring Kit 10308-1 (includes locks, retainers, shims), Comp Cams 918's, Comp Cams 987's.
Note: Make sure the valve springs you purchase have a max lift rating higher than of the camshaft you have/want. Along with valve springs, you will need locks, retainers, shims, and valve stem seals (16). The LT4 valve springs located in the LT4 "hot cam" kit should NOT be considered to be ran with any cam due to the fact they are known to be very weak and only have a max lift rating of .540 which is not high enough for most off the-shelf camshafts.
B. Roller Rockers:
Purpose: Transfers the motion of the cam along the pushrods and assists the valves to open.
Benefit of Upgrading: Upgrading from the stock 1.5RR's to 1.6RR's will increase the lift that the camshaft is putting out as well as producing an extra degree or two of duration at the valve and increased overlap. Ex: Lift of cc503 w/1.5 RR's = (.503/.510) divide by 1.5 then multiply that number by 1.6 to get lift with 1.6RR's = (.535/.544).
Required? No, but highly recommended.
Popular Choices: Crane Golds, Comp Cams Magnums, Comp Cams Pro-Magnums.
SA or NSA?: Self-Aligning should work fine for any of the cams listed above. Non-Self Aligning is cheap insurance that can handle high rpm rev's better because the use of guideplates will ensure that the rockers cannot slip off the valve tips. NSA use 7/16" studs which is stronger than the 3/8" studs that most SA rockers have. Non-Self Aligning will require the use of hardened chromemoly pushrods and guideplates (8).
C. Pushrods:
Purpose: Transfers the motion of the cam to the roller rockers.
Benefit of Upgrading: A stiffer pushrod helps to reduce pushrod "flex" and along with the valve springs helps to keep the valves under proper control and away from valve float and uncontrolled harmonics.
Required?: No, but highly recommended.
Popular Choices: Chromemoly 5/16" or 3/8" outside diameter. Hardened chromemoly pushrods required if using guide plates.
Note: LT1's with stock heads use 7.200" pushrods.
D. Lifters:
Purpose: Rides along the lobes as the cam spins around and follows cam up the lobe ramp which pushes the pushrods up.
Benefit of Upgrading: Over time with higher mileage motors the lifters tend to wear out.
Required?: No, highly recommended for higher mileage motors.
Popular Choices: GM LS7 lifters, Comp Cams hydraulic roller, Crane Cams hydraulic roller.
E. Others:
Gaskets: The following gaskets will be needed: front timing cover gasket, optispark seal, crank seal, water pump drive seal, egr gaskets, throttle body gasket, intake manifold gasket, valve cover gaskets, water pump gaskets.
Timing Chain: Over time the stock timing chain wears and can develop slack. It is highly recommended to swap out the chain for a new one. A stock LT1 replacement chain from GM will do just fine.
Note: An LT4 timing chain will not fit on LT1 sprockets.
Optispark: If the optispark has not yet been changed it is a good idea doing so at this point. Whether you're doing the cam swap yourself or having it done by a shop, the optispark distributor has to come off. Therefore, it is the easiest time to replace it if your doing it yourself and will save you time and effort in the long run. If your having a shop do the swap it will not cost you an extra money to have it installed considering the old one comes off and gets re-installed again which will save you money of having it done again down the road.
Water Pump: Same goes with the water pump as with the optispark. If the mileage is getting up there or the pump is starting to show signs of leaking this is the time to replace it. It will save you time, effort, and money to do it at this time.
Last edited by StealthFormula; 12-28-2007 at 12:48 AM.
12-16-2007, 03:03 PM
#39
I updated part 1 and started working on part 2, both are not complete yet as I've haven't had the time recently with finals week coming up. Just trying to get more opinions to make sure this is as accurate as possible etc etc. I will repost it soon with the complete guide being 100% complete.