Dyno Day..what a joke!
05-20-2008, 07:45 AM
#22
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1) A scanner reading the stock ECM will not tell you if your engine is running lean under WOT. You need a wideband 02 sensor for that. I run one in my vette so I can self tune it.
2) Your horsepower level seems ok. For example I had a 406 SB with Brodix heads, Super Ram, long tubes, 11:1, TH-350, 3500 stall in an 86 camaro and it put down 298HP at the wheels. It ran 12.0's at 112MPH all day long. It was an all torque motor (530 ft lbs at the wheels).
2) Your horsepower level seems ok. For example I had a 406 SB with Brodix heads, Super Ram, long tubes, 11:1, TH-350, 3500 stall in an 86 camaro and it put down 298HP at the wheels. It ran 12.0's at 112MPH all day long. It was an all torque motor (530 ft lbs at the wheels).
05-20-2008, 09:04 AM
#24
**** all that **** dude, I dont trust that guy as far as I can spit. You know your car is making way more power than that! Sorry no matter what these guys say those #s are WEAK and if these other guys are makin that with bolt ons thats there problem they got a slug
So I have way more mods than this guy does that mean it would be normal to dyno 75hp less I dont think so!!!!!!
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1...Z28_110973.htm
So I have way more mods than this guy does that mean it would be normal to dyno 75hp less I dont think so!!!!!!
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1...Z28_110973.htm
05-20-2008, 09:34 AM
#25
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I have been tuning LT1’s as a hobby for ~5 years, and worked in industry as a Controls Engineer developing tunes for large hp industrial power plants. We had many dynos and full data collection capability.
Since I use data from the ECM on boosted vehicles I can verify a narrowband is a great 'tool'. This tool is used by many, in fact some never use a wideband because of a widebands limitations. I use all the tools available and exclude nothing.
A narrow band is designed to measure 14.7 AFR and is calibrated so that mid scale is 14.7 AFR. The half-way voltage is typically set to 0.45V (450 MV) for a normal oxygen sensor. A narrowband is NOT calibrated as the name states over a wide range. BUT a narrowband does give an indication of lean/rich. Its accuracy however is limited. But someone that understands the data can gleem information and determine ways to find problems. Even though the narrowband is NOT linear outside of the stochiometric range.
Can I say .920 MV on all narrowbands is an AFR of 11.8? NO, but if I compare the setup against a wideband and verify when this setup reads .920 MV and that at that point the wideband reads 11.8 AFR, I have improved my confidence that 920 MV is an 11.8 within the repeatability and accurracy of the two sensors.
Again the O2 sensors are tools! A crescent wrench is a great tool, but it can not replace all wrenches even though it is could be marketed as a replacement for all wrenches that works in all situations.
Another down side of any measurement is the data collection rate and of course repeatability. The data rate of widebands tends to be slow does that mean widebands are useless in a quick revving engine? NO!
You employ many tools to achieve the task at hand. So I do not agree with your statement (A scanner reading the stock ECM will not tell you if your engine is running lean under WOT) I prefer to use all the tools available within their capabilities.
A friend owns a wideband and I have access to it so yes I have seen and used the latest, and fastest wideband for home use, I also have all my wrenches and crescent wrenches and find a purpose for all.
Tools all have limits. A dyno will NOT determine that two identical weight cars with the same 'power' will run the same at a track. BUT it will allow each to know when the dyno indicates an improvement again use the tool as intended.
I like a good discussion, let's hope it can remain so.
05-20-2008, 09:51 AM
#27
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I have seen many higher HP cars (>400 HP) go to dyno and get low hp numbers and literally be sick. Then they go to track and run times that indicate 80 - 100 hp more, I also see cars indicate 300 and run like they have 250.
If you went to the dyno today with no changes your numbers would be different maybe higher maybe lower. The dyno is NOT that accurate, BUT it does indicate relative changes. If pull one I make 300 and change tune then pull 325 that indicates my car got stronger.
Will it go faster? Maybe there are no guarantees I have seen too many people go 8.00 then add a cold air box, stall gears then go slower. The track is a cruel environment. If it were easy EVERYONE would have great hp, get 30 mpg, with no driving issues and be in the elevens.
I like to say Shirley has left the building...NEVER think it is a given to go faster there are simply too many interacting variables to change one parameter and state you know the outcome.
If you went to the dyno today with no changes your numbers would be different maybe higher maybe lower. The dyno is NOT that accurate, BUT it does indicate relative changes. If pull one I make 300 and change tune then pull 325 that indicates my car got stronger.
Will it go faster? Maybe there are no guarantees I have seen too many people go 8.00 then add a cold air box, stall gears then go slower. The track is a cruel environment. If it were easy EVERYONE would have great hp, get 30 mpg, with no driving issues and be in the elevens.
I like to say Shirley has left the building...NEVER think it is a given to go faster there are simply too many interacting variables to change one parameter and state you know the outcome.
05-20-2008, 11:25 AM
#28
So I just got off the phone with my local shop and he told me they are not able to scan my car to tell if it lean..he said the dyno was more of a real world situation. He also said another customer had the same isssue with his lt1 running very lean and after he had it delt with and tuned he pulled another 23+ hp. If it is indeed running to lean what steps should I take from here to fix the problem..would a fuel pressure reg and a fresh tune help?? I might look into new injectors as well.
05-20-2008, 11:37 AM
#30
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So I just got off the phone with my local shop and he told me they are not able to scan my car to tell if it lean..he said the dyno was more of a real world situation. He also said another customer had the same isssue with his lt1 running very lean and after he had it delt with and tuned he pulled another 23+ hp. If it is indeed running to lean what steps should I take from here to fix the problem..would a fuel pressure reg and a fresh tune help?? I might look into new injectors as well.
I hope this helps, I don't mean to flame you, but I see you possibly going in the wrong direction.
05-20-2008, 11:44 AM
#31
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So I just got off the phone with my local shop and he told me they are not able to scan my car to tell if it lean..he said the dyno was more of a real world situation. He also said another customer had the same isssue with his lt1 running very lean and after he had it delt with and tuned he pulled another 23+ hp. If it is indeed running to lean what steps should I take from here to fix the problem..would a fuel pressure reg and a fresh tune help?? I might look into new injectors as well.
THEN buy what is needed...could be clogged fuel filter, bad pump,....Don't assume it is tuner, may NOT be! He tuned for a car that was correct so find out if there is a mechanical problem before getting him or others mad.
No one can say what the problem is, we can all list possibles but why change what ain't broke? Relax get data and fix it...DON'T make it worse by hurting it with lean condition. Hell I would even say borrow or rent a car, hurting your engine is expensive. But spending your money is easy for me :>)
Relax and get plan in place cable is immediate, then tuner cat...Expensive but long run it is cheap.
Edit
I posted at the same time as above had I known I would not have since we said about the same. Off to lunch then I have to get to work. Seems we are all making the same recommendations.
05-20-2008, 12:09 PM
#36
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Go here then click on PCM Tutorial to learn about the PCM
http://para.noid.org/~lj/
You’ll need a cable from here.
http://www.akmcables.com/
05-20-2008, 12:25 PM
#37
Michigan Skip and Battle...I thank you guys for the info
It will be interesting to see how it runs here in the near future. The thing runs SO strong right now so if I am indeed missing out on some ponies then I'm gonna really enjoy the ride afterwards.
Last edited by Elliott's94Z; 05-20-2008 at 12:39 PM.
05-20-2008, 12:57 PM
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05-20-2008, 02:42 PM
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I am another guy that says that on the street the driver car make the diffrence, I watched a N/A '97 drop top TA lose by less than a car to '99 Camaro on a 75 shot on the street.
05-20-2008, 05:31 PM
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I disagree and find a narrowband is useful for WOT tuning.
I have been tuning LT1’s as a hobby for ~5 years, and worked in industry as a Controls Engineer developing tunes for large hp industrial power plants. We had many dynos and full data collection capability.
Since I use data from the ECM on boosted vehicles I can verify a narrowband is a great 'tool'. This tool is used by many, in fact some never use a wideband because of a widebands limitations. I use all the tools available and exclude nothing.
A narrow band is designed to measure 14.7 AFR and is calibrated so that mid scale is 14.7 AFR. The half-way voltage is typically set to 0.45V (450 MV) for a normal oxygen sensor. A narrowband is NOT calibrated as the name states over a wide range. BUT a narrowband does give an indication of lean/rich. Its accuracy however is limited. But someone that understands the data can gleem information and determine ways to find problems. Even though the narrowband is NOT linear outside of the stochiometric range.
Can I say .920 MV on all narrowbands is an AFR of 11.8? NO, but if I compare the setup against a wideband and verify when this setup reads .920 MV and that at that point the wideband reads 11.8 AFR, I have improved my confidence that 920 MV is an 11.8 within the repeatability and accurracy of the two sensors.
Again the O2 sensors are tools! A crescent wrench is a great tool, but it can not replace all wrenches even though it is could be marketed as a replacement for all wrenches that works in all situations.
Another down side of any measurement is the data collection rate and of course repeatability. The data rate of widebands tends to be slow does that mean widebands are useless in a quick revving engine? NO!
You employ many tools to achieve the task at hand. So I do not agree with your statement (A scanner reading the stock ECM will not tell you if your engine is running lean under WOT) I prefer to use all the tools available within their capabilities.
A friend owns a wideband and I have access to it so yes I have seen and used the latest, and fastest wideband for home use, I also have all my wrenches and crescent wrenches and find a purpose for all.
Tools all have limits. A dyno will NOT determine that two identical weight cars with the same 'power' will run the same at a track. BUT it will allow each to know when the dyno indicates an improvement again use the tool as intended.
I like a good discussion, let's hope it can remain so.
I have been tuning LT1’s as a hobby for ~5 years, and worked in industry as a Controls Engineer developing tunes for large hp industrial power plants. We had many dynos and full data collection capability.
Since I use data from the ECM on boosted vehicles I can verify a narrowband is a great 'tool'. This tool is used by many, in fact some never use a wideband because of a widebands limitations. I use all the tools available and exclude nothing.
A narrow band is designed to measure 14.7 AFR and is calibrated so that mid scale is 14.7 AFR. The half-way voltage is typically set to 0.45V (450 MV) for a normal oxygen sensor. A narrowband is NOT calibrated as the name states over a wide range. BUT a narrowband does give an indication of lean/rich. Its accuracy however is limited. But someone that understands the data can gleem information and determine ways to find problems. Even though the narrowband is NOT linear outside of the stochiometric range.
Can I say .920 MV on all narrowbands is an AFR of 11.8? NO, but if I compare the setup against a wideband and verify when this setup reads .920 MV and that at that point the wideband reads 11.8 AFR, I have improved my confidence that 920 MV is an 11.8 within the repeatability and accurracy of the two sensors.
Again the O2 sensors are tools! A crescent wrench is a great tool, but it can not replace all wrenches even though it is could be marketed as a replacement for all wrenches that works in all situations.
Another down side of any measurement is the data collection rate and of course repeatability. The data rate of widebands tends to be slow does that mean widebands are useless in a quick revving engine? NO!
You employ many tools to achieve the task at hand. So I do not agree with your statement (A scanner reading the stock ECM will not tell you if your engine is running lean under WOT) I prefer to use all the tools available within their capabilities.
A friend owns a wideband and I have access to it so yes I have seen and used the latest, and fastest wideband for home use, I also have all my wrenches and crescent wrenches and find a purpose for all.
Tools all have limits. A dyno will NOT determine that two identical weight cars with the same 'power' will run the same at a track. BUT it will allow each to know when the dyno indicates an improvement again use the tool as intended.
I like a good discussion, let's hope it can remain so.
In the context of this situation he didn't have a wideband to 'gauge' his narrowband against. Your example uses a narrow and a wideband together. I am simply saying I would not trust a narrowband sensor to tune my car.
I run a wideband fulltime in my 10 second corvette. The narrowband O2 shows different mVs at the same AF ratio of the wideband. I've read where the narrowband mv's changes with temperature outside of it's narrow range.
A narrowband O2 will only tell you if you're above or below 14.7 in my experience, not by how much, to the accuracy I feel comfortable with.