The BIGGEST CAM i can put on a stock bottom end?
08-13-2008, 08:01 PM
#21
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Don't move this is a 
...
OK there is some good things in here, but I am going to be doing something similar here shortly, Heads and Cam upgrade that is not the Hijacking, LOL...
Anyway, I was wondering from those more in the know what you thought of my cam choice on the stock bottom end. The heads are ported stockers that were refreshed by a local racing head porter, and the cam I am planning on using is what I thought was a good compromise of what I was looking for.
The specs are as follows:
Duration @ .050": 232/236
Adv. Duration: 288/294
Lift: .510/.533
Lobe Center: 112
and is advertised to make power between 2000-5600 and having a "Fair idle, Great mid-range torque and HP"
I would think spinning that to a 6100 (6300ish Max engine speed) shift point may work out, any thoughts?
I wanted something between the CC305 and CC306, and a little better lift and intake duration then the XE276 or 503.
I know those advertised ranges are entirely not accurate since I know guys spinning the XE276 and CC306 into the mid-high 6K's, but for comparisons here are the numbers I found for those:
CC305 (I have one here that I was going to use, but now think I want more)
Duration @ .050": 220/230
Adv. Duration: 276/290
Lift: .510/.510
Lobe Center: 114
advertised range: 1500-5500
CC306
Duration @ .050": 230/244
Adv. Duration: 290/307
Lift: .510/.540
Lobe Center: 112
advertised range: 1800-5800
CC503
Duration @ .050": 224/230
Adv. Duration: 276/281
Lift: .503/.510
Lobe Center: 112
advertised range: 1800-5800
CC-XE276
Duration @ .050": 224/230
Adv. Duration: 276/282
Lift: .502/.510
Lobe Center: 110
advertised range: 1900-5600
...OK there is some good things in here, but I am going to be doing something similar here shortly, Heads and Cam upgrade that is not the Hijacking, LOL...
Anyway, I was wondering from those more in the know what you thought of my cam choice on the stock bottom end. The heads are ported stockers that were refreshed by a local racing head porter, and the cam I am planning on using is what I thought was a good compromise of what I was looking for.
The specs are as follows:
Duration @ .050": 232/236
Adv. Duration: 288/294
Lift: .510/.533
Lobe Center: 112
and is advertised to make power between 2000-5600 and having a "Fair idle, Great mid-range torque and HP"
I would think spinning that to a 6100 (6300ish Max engine speed) shift point may work out, any thoughts?
I wanted something between the CC305 and CC306, and a little better lift and intake duration then the XE276 or 503.
I know those advertised ranges are entirely not accurate since I know guys spinning the XE276 and CC306 into the mid-high 6K's, but for comparisons here are the numbers I found for those:
CC305 (I have one here that I was going to use, but now think I want more)
Duration @ .050": 220/230
Adv. Duration: 276/290
Lift: .510/.510
Lobe Center: 114
advertised range: 1500-5500
CC306
Duration @ .050": 230/244
Adv. Duration: 290/307
Lift: .510/.540
Lobe Center: 112
advertised range: 1800-5800
CC503
Duration @ .050": 224/230
Adv. Duration: 276/281
Lift: .503/.510
Lobe Center: 112
advertised range: 1800-5800
CC-XE276
Duration @ .050": 224/230
Adv. Duration: 276/282
Lift: .502/.510
Lobe Center: 110
advertised range: 1900-5600
08-13-2008, 08:08 PM
#22
^^With boltons and cc503 and untouched stock heads 6400 worked the best for me. I would think that cam would want 6500 or more especially with a little work done to the heads but thats IMO. The cams that people are going to like 6100 with are Crane 227, LPE 211/219 type cams and 6300 are more like cc305, cc503, gm846 type territory. Remember the heads will bump the rpm's a little. I would if I was you have someone like Bret Bauer or whoever you like best spec you out a custom grind. Also the advertised rpm ranges that manufacturers give are typically quite unaccurate.
08-13-2008, 08:18 PM
#23
Not sure if this helps, but...I have a 503 cammed stock bottom end car with locally ported stock heads. Shifted at 6300 and no where near the weight reduction you have (still have full interior with exception of the heater) and am currently running 11.60s in the hot summer heat.
08-13-2008, 08:42 PM
#24
11 Second Club
Not sure if this helps, but...I have a 503 cammed stock bottom end car with locally ported stock heads. Shifted at 6300 and no where near the weight reduction you have (still have full interior with exception of the heater) and am currently running 11.60s in the hot summer heat.
08-13-2008, 08:43 PM
#25
1slowformula,
The Comp RPM ranges are WAY WAY off, my best guess is those are the rpm ranges for a gen 1 motor with a dual plane intake, going to want to rev bare minimum 500rpm higher than Comp recommends in some cases they can be as much as 1000rpms off.
The cam you picked is too much intake duration and too little intake/exhaust duration split, with an LSA to tame too much cam or make it pass emissions.
If you were running a 383 then the intake duration would be OK.
The cam I run is smaller and from datalogs looks like it peaks about 6100rpms and I rev it to between 64-6500rpms.
The Comp RPM ranges are WAY WAY off, my best guess is those are the rpm ranges for a gen 1 motor with a dual plane intake, going to want to rev bare minimum 500rpm higher than Comp recommends in some cases they can be as much as 1000rpms off.
The cam you picked is too much intake duration and too little intake/exhaust duration split, with an LSA to tame too much cam or make it pass emissions.
If you were running a 383 then the intake duration would be OK.
The cam I run is smaller and from datalogs looks like it peaks about 6100rpms and I rev it to between 64-6500rpms.
08-13-2008, 08:52 PM
#26
I dont want a roll cage, not that Im not all about being safe, but the car is still a "cheap" hobby for me. Im trying to convince myself its fast enough...but really would like to try a 150 shot.
Jason
Jason
08-13-2008, 08:59 PM
#27
11 Second Club
1slowformula,
The Comp RPM ranges are WAY WAY off, my best guess is those are the rpm ranges for a gen 1 motor with a dual plane intake, going to want to rev bare minimum 500rpm higher than Comp recommends in some cases they can be as much as 1000rpms off.
The cam you picked is too much intake duration and too little intake/exhaust duration split, with an LSA to tame too much cam or make it pass emissions.
If you were running a 383 then the intake duration would be OK.
The cam I run is smaller and from datalogs looks like it peaks about 6100rpms and I rev it to between 64-6500rpms.
The Comp RPM ranges are WAY WAY off, my best guess is those are the rpm ranges for a gen 1 motor with a dual plane intake, going to want to rev bare minimum 500rpm higher than Comp recommends in some cases they can be as much as 1000rpms off.
The cam you picked is too much intake duration and too little intake/exhaust duration split, with an LSA to tame too much cam or make it pass emissions.
If you were running a 383 then the intake duration would be OK.
The cam I run is smaller and from datalogs looks like it peaks about 6100rpms and I rev it to between 64-6500rpms.
Actually at first they wanted me to use this one, but I told them I didn't want to spin it that high:
Duration @ .050": 232/242
Adv. Duration: 294/302
Lift: .533/.548
Lobe Center: 112
08-13-2008, 10:29 PM
#28
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the 232/236 cam is gonna pull to 6500 RPM or so unless it is advanced 10 degrees (102 ICL) but that would put the exhaust lobe WAY outta wack (122 ECL) and would run like crap.
It has been stated several times that you are gonna need to stay below 230 duration (224 to 228 at the most) unless you wanna shift at 6500 RPM or so.
If the people suggesting this cam have done lots of LT1's and can back up the RPM range of the 232/236 cam with a dyno sheet, put your faith in them and ignore the people in this thread but I can tell you from experience that if the heads are very good at all, you will make peak HP at 6300 RPM or higher and you would wanna shift at 6500 RPM or higher.
Lloyd
It has been stated several times that you are gonna need to stay below 230 duration (224 to 228 at the most) unless you wanna shift at 6500 RPM or so.
If the people suggesting this cam have done lots of LT1's and can back up the RPM range of the 232/236 cam with a dyno sheet, put your faith in them and ignore the people in this thread but I can tell you from experience that if the heads are very good at all, you will make peak HP at 6300 RPM or higher and you would wanna shift at 6500 RPM or higher.
Lloyd
08-15-2008, 12:38 AM
#29
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dude go with a Comp Cams 290hr (cc306) i have it in my stock 93 camaro with 180,000 miles on it and i am making somewhere around 364 without roller rockers and full bolt ons, and i run low 8's in the 1/8 on a street tire with stock 2.73 gears
you will not be dissapointed everyone talks smack about this cam but if it was an old design which idk how a cam can be and old design what are they using titanium now, then it wouldnt be able to make my car rape on heads and cammed ls1's, just keep that in mind
you will not be dissapointed everyone talks smack about this cam but if it was an old design which idk how a cam can be and old design what are they using titanium now, then it wouldnt be able to make my car rape on heads and cammed ls1's, just keep that in mind
08-15-2008, 12:47 AM
#30
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It reacts good with the 2500, but my enigne builder says i should go to a 4000 min. to get the most power. I forgot to mention that its carbed with a victor jr single plane.
08-15-2008, 12:50 AM
#31
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Someone tried that on a stock bottomend and found the power still climbing at 7000rpms, meaning it is a really bad choice for a stock shortblock if you expect it to live atall. Even on a 396 it needs to rev beyond where we have all agreed is the limit for a stock shortblock, for those who don't know it, displacement tames cam, bigger the engine the bigger a cam you need to turn the same rpms.
jatsfirebird03
Far as the LT4 heads, well you already screwed up in a pretty big way with those. Probably the only good thing about those is the hollow valves. They just do not work that well, especially not on a 350, most of the bench racers who want to believe they are awesome will even admit that with stock displacement they are a bad choice. If you got the whole GMPP kit the rockers are limited to .550, most of the better stuff you are going to look at now will bottom out the rocker slot and break stuff with them.
Don't like my comments, maybe it would help if you research results, the LT4 HOT package heads and cam is usually good for 320-330rwhp, the average ported LT1 heads setup is well over that and the good ones go over 400rwhp, basically making at the wheels what the LT4 kit makes at the flywheel.
jatsfirebird03
Far as the LT4 heads, well you already screwed up in a pretty big way with those. Probably the only good thing about those is the hollow valves. They just do not work that well, especially not on a 350, most of the bench racers who want to believe they are awesome will even admit that with stock displacement they are a bad choice. If you got the whole GMPP kit the rockers are limited to .550, most of the better stuff you are going to look at now will bottom out the rocker slot and break stuff with them.
Don't like my comments, maybe it would help if you research results, the LT4 HOT package heads and cam is usually good for 320-330rwhp, the average ported LT1 heads setup is well over that and the good ones go over 400rwhp, basically making at the wheels what the LT4 kit makes at the flywheel.
08-15-2008, 10:31 AM
#32
01-02-2009, 11:56 AM
#34
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dude go with a Comp Cams 290hr (cc306) i have it in my stock 93 camaro with 180,000 miles on it and i am making somewhere around 364 without roller rockers and full bolt ons, and i run low 8's in the 1/8 on a street tire with stock 2.73 gears
you will not be dissapointed everyone talks smack about this cam but if it was an old design which idk how a cam can be and old design what are they using titanium now, then it wouldnt be able to make my car rape on heads and cammed ls1's, just keep that in mind
you will not be dissapointed everyone talks smack about this cam but if it was an old design which idk how a cam can be and old design what are they using titanium now, then it wouldnt be able to make my car rape on heads and cammed ls1's, just keep that in mind
I kinda agree with this guy to an extent. By no way am I a world class engine builder by any means but I have been impressed with this cam. I too don't have roller rockers so I have been shifting about 6200 and I have had good results. 8 flat all day long with the clutch slipping. Well that is with an 80 shot. But it ran 8.3-8.4 just motor. That was with 3.42s, stock clutch and a 2.30-2.40 60 ft time.
I would definately see about a custom grind if you had the money. I didn't have the money when I did my cam swap and this was a tried and true cam, and for the money I couldn't beat it. Good luck though. d
01-02-2009, 01:27 PM
#35
Understand shifts occur a couple hundred rpms after commanded with the A4 and that you need to rev a few hundred rpms beyond peak power to keep the engine in a good average powerband. All that said you are probaly best to stay BELOW 230degrees as most cams in the mid to upper 220 range will be hitting 6400-6500 during the shift if you command it somewhere around 6200rpms and that is with a built tranny, expect more rpm rise with a stock tranny.
Sounds like a simple fix. Command the shift earlier!
01-02-2009, 01:39 PM
#36
Well yeah you command the shift earier than you want it to finish but you still have to take necessary rpms into account. Would be kind of stupid to put in a cam that peaks at 6500 so it needs to rev to 6800 to keep you in the powerband and then command the shift at 6200 and have it done by 6500.
Really the valvetrain and such should be done so that you can rev even further beyond peak without substantial loss of power. Many of the "old school" guys I talk to tell me to rev at least 500 past peak to keep the engine in it's powerband. I just don't because I do not want to stress the rod bolts/bearings that much. Not a lot of guys have the valvetrain setup well enough to get away with that. Early on before I realized how high mine was reving beyond the commanded shift it did hit 67-6800 a few times, turned out I needed to redrill a hole in the seperator plate to account for the aded power. It never floated or anything but I did eventually spin a rod bearing on that shortblock, i was over 100K though.
Really the valvetrain and such should be done so that you can rev even further beyond peak without substantial loss of power. Many of the "old school" guys I talk to tell me to rev at least 500 past peak to keep the engine in it's powerband. I just don't because I do not want to stress the rod bolts/bearings that much. Not a lot of guys have the valvetrain setup well enough to get away with that. Early on before I realized how high mine was reving beyond the commanded shift it did hit 67-6800 a few times, turned out I needed to redrill a hole in the seperator plate to account for the aded power. It never floated or anything but I did eventually spin a rod bearing on that shortblock, i was over 100K though.
01-02-2009, 03:10 PM
#38
The H/C is far from junk...if it was junk then why have so many people ran it with great success and still look into running it?? It's old, no doubt...but just because it's old doesn't mean it's garbage. It's a great emissions cam that has served it's purpose well...
01-02-2009, 03:14 PM
#39
Im not a cam specialist and am really a nube when it comes to things like this, but I would like to see a dyno sheet of a cc306 and a cc503 and see which is making more power at 4000 RPMs and 6000Rpms. I know you want to pick a cam you can use to its full extent by revving it to what it can do, but if the 306 is making more power, say at 6000 rpms, then i really wouldnt worry about spinning it even higher even if I could. Im only asking this for when i finally am able to choose a cam to go in my car, and an not here to argue with anyone or prove anyone wrong.
01-02-2009, 03:21 PM
#40
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Hotcam is a great cam for what it is. It's not meant to be a badass be-all end-all cam. Buddy of mine with heads/hotcam would run consistant high 7s (7.7's-7.8's) in the 1/8 and tear into C6 and Viper's ********. There are cams out there that will give you A LOT more power, but those looking for a mild street car, hotcam is perfect. Get yourself some heads matched with that cam, a good tune, and I guarentee youll be happy. Those looking for 400+whp, hotcam is evidently not for you, so don't say it's not a good cam.