Help me prove then wrong...
Thread Starter
11 Second Club
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 3
From: West Linn, Oregon
Help me prove them wrong... OK some of you know that I race in a N/A Series, in the index class. I want to step up into one of the heads up classes and was thinking about the Drag Radial class. But I also wanted to keep the LT1, just to kick @$$ in LT1 events too, LOL...
Every one around the series says it can not be done to make an LT1 be competative within the rules of the class. The class average is 9.25 1/4 in the 14x's with the class leaders in the 9.10 range around 150 MPH, and the rules base weight off of CID.
Here are the rules:
They are currently talking about changing the weights to help the smaller cube guys get up there with the bigger guys and this is the new proposed weights:
300/2550, 325/2700, 350/2825, 375/2975, 400/3125, 425/3225, 450/3325,
475/3400, 500/3475, 525/3500, 550/3550
Weight scale will continue up and down with same increments.
5lbs/per cube below 375, 4lbs/per cube below 450, 3 lbs/per cube above 450
2 carbs add 50 lbs (4150 only). Sticks add 50lbs. EFI add 50 lbs. BOPA engines subtract 50lbs.
Subtract 50 lbs for no wheelie bars
*4500 Series "Dominator" carbs add 50#
Do we think this is possible? or should I just give in and built an old school SBC or something else? I just thought it would be cool to show what an LT1 could do, and try and compete in this class...
Every one around the series says it can not be done to make an LT1 be competative within the rules of the class. The class average is 9.25 1/4 in the 14x's with the class leaders in the 9.10 range around 150 MPH, and the rules base weight off of CID.
Here are the rules:
GENERAL OVERVIEW
The Naturally Aspirated Shoot-out is a class designed for naturally aspirated cars
and trucks racing in a heads up format with an all run field
All make and models are allowed as well as small block and big block power
plants.
Vehicles are required to be stock appearing and stock bodied and must pass
NHRA/IHRA safety inspection for ET and speed.
Drag Radial will compete on a .400 Pro tree. A Pro ladder will determine running
order. Points will be awarded at end of event to be compiled for end of year
points fund. Records will be awarded to holder at end of each event.
ENGINE
All engines are allowed and engine swapping is allowed.
Aftermarket aluminum or steel blocks allowed.
Cubic inchs will be verified by P&G method.
Mufflers are mandatory and collector mufflers will be allowed, 3 inch maximum
diameter measured at exhaust exit.
Gasoline is the only fuel allowed.
Cylinder heads limited to oem or oem style aftermarket heads, cast iron or
aluminum, standard port location and valve angle for all types. i.e: no raised
runner intake or exhaust. **See Approved Head Listing**
Racer must verify legal part # head during inspection to be deemed legal. Any
modifications allowed to legal heads.
Dry Sump oiling systems prohibited. Vacuum pumps allowed.
BALLAST
Must be NHRA/IHRA approved mounting and be maximum 100# per individual
weight bar and be bolted or welded securely in car.
Two ½ bolts per 100#s.
No loose or unsecured ballast allowed.
CARBURETORS/INDUCTION
Any carburetor(s) allowed with penalties attached to multiple carburetor
systems.
Cast intake manifolds only.
EFI allowed with weight adder
TRANSMISSION
Any automatic or oem style manual transmissions allowed with weight added to
sticks. NO clutchless or pro shifted units allowed.
The use of a clutch between shifts is a MUST.
Any converter OK but ALL SHIFTS must occur manually by the driver.
NO AUTOMATIC SHIFTERS!
SUSPENSION
Stock rear frame rails and stock suspension only. The use of bolt on
suspension devices only. Coil-overs OK.
Front frame rails must be stock and in stock location. Aftermarket
K-members allowed.
Mini tubs and notched frame rails allowed.
Rack and Pinion conversion for the front suspension is allowed.
Wheelie bars are permitted
INTERIOR
OEM dash and door panels are preferred and interior carpeted, intentions to
have OEM appearance.
Two seats are preferred in stock location.
HOOD AND SCOOP
Forward facing scoops limited to 5 measured from flat of hood to top of
opening. Scoops measuring above 5 must run plugged.
Cowl induction hoods can be any size.
Fiberglass body pieces must bolt on or pin on, no one piece front ends.
ELECTRICAL
Two step, trans brakes and line locs are OK.
Functional headlights preferred as well as taillights, running lights and horn.
Data Acquisition systems allowed
TIRES
The maximum allowed tire size is 275/60
Tires must be of D.O.T. radial design
WEIGHTS
300/2700, 325/2825, 350/2950, 375/3075, 400/3175, 425/3275, 450/3375,
475/3450, 500/3525, 525/3600, 550/3675
Weight scale will continue up and down with same increments.
5lbs/per cube below 375, 4lbs/per cube below 450, 3 lbs/per cube above 450
2 carbs add 50 lbs (4150 only). Sticks add 50lbs. EFI add 50 lbs. BOPA engines
subtract 50lbs.
Subtract 50 lbs for no wheelie bars
APPROVED HEADS LIST (I only listed the LTx stuff)
AFR
- 180cc LT1 SBC Street
- 195cc LT4 SBC Street
- 210cc LT4 SBC Racing
- 220cc LT4 SBC Racing
- 227cc LT4 SBC Racing
GM
- Bowtie,II, vortec, vortec bowtie, fastburn, LT1, LT4, LS1, LS6, LS7
Trick Flow
- LT1
The Naturally Aspirated Shoot-out is a class designed for naturally aspirated cars
and trucks racing in a heads up format with an all run field
All make and models are allowed as well as small block and big block power
plants.
Vehicles are required to be stock appearing and stock bodied and must pass
NHRA/IHRA safety inspection for ET and speed.
Drag Radial will compete on a .400 Pro tree. A Pro ladder will determine running
order. Points will be awarded at end of event to be compiled for end of year
points fund. Records will be awarded to holder at end of each event.
ENGINE
All engines are allowed and engine swapping is allowed.
Aftermarket aluminum or steel blocks allowed.
Cubic inchs will be verified by P&G method.
Mufflers are mandatory and collector mufflers will be allowed, 3 inch maximum
diameter measured at exhaust exit.
Gasoline is the only fuel allowed.
Cylinder heads limited to oem or oem style aftermarket heads, cast iron or
aluminum, standard port location and valve angle for all types. i.e: no raised
runner intake or exhaust. **See Approved Head Listing**
Racer must verify legal part # head during inspection to be deemed legal. Any
modifications allowed to legal heads.
Dry Sump oiling systems prohibited. Vacuum pumps allowed.
BALLAST
Must be NHRA/IHRA approved mounting and be maximum 100# per individual
weight bar and be bolted or welded securely in car.
Two ½ bolts per 100#s.
No loose or unsecured ballast allowed.
CARBURETORS/INDUCTION
Any carburetor(s) allowed with penalties attached to multiple carburetor
systems.
Cast intake manifolds only.
EFI allowed with weight adder
TRANSMISSION
Any automatic or oem style manual transmissions allowed with weight added to
sticks. NO clutchless or pro shifted units allowed.
The use of a clutch between shifts is a MUST.
Any converter OK but ALL SHIFTS must occur manually by the driver.
NO AUTOMATIC SHIFTERS!
SUSPENSION
Stock rear frame rails and stock suspension only. The use of bolt on
suspension devices only. Coil-overs OK.
Front frame rails must be stock and in stock location. Aftermarket
K-members allowed.
Mini tubs and notched frame rails allowed.
Rack and Pinion conversion for the front suspension is allowed.
Wheelie bars are permitted
INTERIOR
OEM dash and door panels are preferred and interior carpeted, intentions to
have OEM appearance.
Two seats are preferred in stock location.
HOOD AND SCOOP
Forward facing scoops limited to 5 measured from flat of hood to top of
opening. Scoops measuring above 5 must run plugged.
Cowl induction hoods can be any size.
Fiberglass body pieces must bolt on or pin on, no one piece front ends.
ELECTRICAL
Two step, trans brakes and line locs are OK.
Functional headlights preferred as well as taillights, running lights and horn.
Data Acquisition systems allowed
TIRES
The maximum allowed tire size is 275/60
Tires must be of D.O.T. radial design
WEIGHTS
300/2700, 325/2825, 350/2950, 375/3075, 400/3175, 425/3275, 450/3375,
475/3450, 500/3525, 525/3600, 550/3675
Weight scale will continue up and down with same increments.
5lbs/per cube below 375, 4lbs/per cube below 450, 3 lbs/per cube above 450
2 carbs add 50 lbs (4150 only). Sticks add 50lbs. EFI add 50 lbs. BOPA engines
subtract 50lbs.
Subtract 50 lbs for no wheelie bars
APPROVED HEADS LIST (I only listed the LTx stuff)
AFR
- 180cc LT1 SBC Street
- 195cc LT4 SBC Street
- 210cc LT4 SBC Racing
- 220cc LT4 SBC Racing
- 227cc LT4 SBC Racing
GM
- Bowtie,II, vortec, vortec bowtie, fastburn, LT1, LT4, LS1, LS6, LS7
Trick Flow
- LT1
They are currently talking about changing the weights to help the smaller cube guys get up there with the bigger guys and this is the new proposed weights:
300/2550, 325/2700, 350/2825, 375/2975, 400/3125, 425/3225, 450/3325,
475/3400, 500/3475, 525/3500, 550/3550
Weight scale will continue up and down with same increments.
5lbs/per cube below 375, 4lbs/per cube below 450, 3 lbs/per cube above 450
2 carbs add 50 lbs (4150 only). Sticks add 50lbs. EFI add 50 lbs. BOPA engines subtract 50lbs.
Subtract 50 lbs for no wheelie bars
*4500 Series "Dominator" carbs add 50#
Do we think this is possible? or should I just give in and built an old school SBC or something else? I just thought it would be cool to show what an LT1 could do, and try and compete in this class...
Last edited by 1SlowFormula; May 15, 2009 at 10:21 AM. Reason: mistyped title
Thread Starter
11 Second Club
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 3
From: West Linn, Oregon
This means I would need to make an LTx motor that if I went with the minimum weights (meaning carb, and single plane intake) I would need to come up with one of the following:
- 355 making ~750ish bhp or 2.11 hp/ci
- 370 making ~770 bhp or 2.08 hp/ci
- 383 making ~790 bhp or 2.06 hp/ci
- 396 making ~810 bhp or 2.04 hp/ci
- 406 making ~825 bhp or 2.03 hp/ci
it would be tough, but is it doable?
- 355 making ~750ish bhp or 2.11 hp/ci
- 370 making ~770 bhp or 2.08 hp/ci
- 383 making ~790 bhp or 2.06 hp/ci
- 396 making ~810 bhp or 2.04 hp/ci
- 406 making ~825 bhp or 2.03 hp/ci
it would be tough, but is it doable?
On The Tree
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
From: Catawissa PA
I think the biggest problem is that your putting yourself in a class where your car is going to be way overweight "350/2950". Well, you're proabaly going to need to look more at a 396CI with some really good heads.
I didn't run pints this year due to all my engine problems, I'm thinking that if I kill one more LT1 I'm going to go with a bigblock and glide and be done with it!
I didn't run pints this year due to all my engine problems, I'm thinking that if I kill one more LT1 I'm going to go with a bigblock and glide and be done with it!
Like i said i got you covered...... the motor is waiting...If you honestly wanna build something it will cost you more than you wanna spend. Mine is the best bang for the buck... even though im not not 100% on if i wanna sell it haha.
Thread Starter
11 Second Club
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 3
From: West Linn, Oregon
well with the new numbers they are proposing to get the smaller engines more competative, the 350 would weigh in at 2825...
I can see my race weight being below 2900# with the safety equiptment to run 9's, hell it is just about there now and I have a more weight to pull out then the cage, window net, trans shield, rear, and other misc safety stuff would add. so I think I could get the car into the minimum weights for a 370" motor at least if not smaller, again based on the minimums.
Oh and I just realized when I ran the numbers through the calulator for post 2 they were to be competative with the leaders at the 9.1 range, if I run them to be in the middle of the pack at 9.25 then it would be more like this:
- 355 making ~720ish bhp or 2 hp/ci
- 370 making ~735 bhp or 1.986 hp/ci
- 383 making ~755 bhp or 1.971 hp/ci
- 396 making ~775 bhp or 1.957 hp/ci
- 406 making ~785 bhp or 1.933 hp/ci
I can see my race weight being below 2900# with the safety equiptment to run 9's, hell it is just about there now and I have a more weight to pull out then the cage, window net, trans shield, rear, and other misc safety stuff would add. so I think I could get the car into the minimum weights for a 370" motor at least if not smaller, again based on the minimums.
Oh and I just realized when I ran the numbers through the calulator for post 2 they were to be competative with the leaders at the 9.1 range, if I run them to be in the middle of the pack at 9.25 then it would be more like this:
- 355 making ~720ish bhp or 2 hp/ci
- 370 making ~735 bhp or 1.986 hp/ci
- 383 making ~755 bhp or 1.971 hp/ci
- 396 making ~775 bhp or 1.957 hp/ci
- 406 making ~785 bhp or 1.933 hp/ci
Thread Starter
11 Second Club
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 3
From: West Linn, Oregon
but fran, I can build it slowly and my wife won't notice the whole cost, that and if I just buy yours outright then she will difinitly see the price and kill me
LOLBTW, you never responded to my PM about the price, or at least I never saw it, but your motor would definitly get me into the pack and maybe close to 9.35 or better, but the heads also are not on the list and I would have to see if the raised runners would fit into the rules...
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but fran, I can build it slowly and my wife won't notice the whole cost, that and if I just buy yours outright then she will difinitly see the price and kill me LOL
BTW, you never responded to my PM about the price, or at least I never saw it, but your motor would definitly get me into the pack and maybe close to 9.35 or better, but the heads also are not on the list and I would have to see if the raised runners would fit into the rules...
LOLBTW, you never responded to my PM about the price, or at least I never saw it, but your motor would definitly get me into the pack and maybe close to 9.35 or better, but the heads also are not on the list and I would have to see if the raised runners would fit into the rules...
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Thread Starter
11 Second Club
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 3
From: West Linn, Oregon
Hey Fran, the heads are illegal for the class since it was designed around conventional heads and your motor has raised runners. But hey that doesn't count it out, it just means if I do go that route then I will have to sell off the heads and spend a lot more to get a new set that flowes as well, that fits in the rules...
Until then, please all lets jump in with ideas on how to make this kind of power so I can show them what an LT1 can do...
Until then, please all lets jump in with ideas on how to make this kind of power so I can show them what an LT1 can do...
Finding out what kind of cylinder heads guys in this class running 23* small block heads are using may be a good starting point. A LT1 head isn't really any different as far as port and chamber work. In other words you should be able to make a Dart or Trickflow LT1 head just as good as their SBC heads given they are the same basic design, which some are.
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SBC's have ran those times and lets face it what is an LT1? It will be tuff with the heads they have listed but it is possible. I spent more money building what I have then what I should have. I wish I would have passed the LT1 thought by and done a dart block or just bought a turn key BBC. I have spent enough money this year on my car that I could have put up a 30x60 building, with money left over and I couldn't touch those times without the bottle. I'm also running what would be an illegal head.
Hey Fran, the heads are illegal for the class since it was designed around conventional heads and your motor has raised runners. But hey that doesn't count it out, it just means if I do go that route then I will have to sell off the heads and spend a lot more to get a new set that flowes as well, that fits in the rules...
Until then, please all lets jump in with ideas on how to make this kind of power so I can show them what an LT1 can do...
Until then, please all lets jump in with ideas on how to make this kind of power so I can show them what an LT1 can do...
Then find another class to go 8.5 in and spray it alittle
Thread Starter
11 Second Club
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 3
From: West Linn, Oregon
Finding out what kind of cylinder heads guys in this class running 23* small block heads are using may be a good starting point. A LT1 head isn't really any different as far as port and chamber work. In other words you should be able to make a Dart or Trickflow LT1 head just as good as their SBC heads given they are the same basic design, which some are.
this is what I was told by the head builder himself when I asked what he could do with the stock castings:
"That head is very inferior to what is available out there in D/R. Its cored up with water everywhere and is a very lightweight piece. I have had great success picking them up over stock but still leaves them quite short I believe. To even get them close, a serious effort on that casting, you are probably looking at around $4K in labor includes all the welding and moving of guides, spring seats and seat registers and heat treating. You would be better off starting with an aftermarket piece."
SBC's have ran those times and lets face it what is an LT1? It will be tuff with the heads they have listed but it is possible. I spent more money building what I have then what I should have. I wish I would have passed the LT1 thought by and done a dart block or just bought a turn key BBC. I have spent enough money this year on my car that I could have put up a 30x60 building, with money left over and I couldn't touch those times without the bottle. I'm also running what would be an illegal head.
I would love to do that, but I am out to prove a point, I hate when people tell me something can't be don't just because nobody has tried it yet...
Thread Starter
11 Second Club
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,089
Likes: 3
From: West Linn, Oregon
ya a na lt1 with badass heads solid roller ect still would be hard...you would have to turn 8000 rpm from it and still it would be way too expensive...shaft mount rockers/crank trigger/bs3 along thats 4000 bux....
a na lt1 running 9.10's on radials is almost never goana happen...basically youve gota make the power to trap 140with a na lt1...
talk to ed i think hes still the fastest na lt1....hell give you some good info
a na lt1 running 9.10's on radials is almost never goana happen...basically youve gota make the power to trap 140with a na lt1...
talk to ed i think hes still the fastest na lt1....hell give you some good info
