sleepinghawk

New master was already put in and that did nothing. Along with the mighty vac bleeding and other methods with a mechanic helping. At this point I'm going to read up on installing a clutch and see how hard it is to atleast pull the clutch down enough to see if it's worn or what not, since the tranny is already out. 2 good videos on you tube that do a clutch install so with their help I got the tranny out. If I can't tell by marks or whatever then I'll ask. If it's not worn then I'll put the slave on which I already have and go from there. If any signs say it's worn, then I'm not putting it back together till a clutch goes in. Yes, my problem didn't seem to be a clutch slipping, that's why I want to know if mine is worn. Thanks

sleepinghawk

Yea, I know man. I don't think my car is beat on at all. Well that's what my oldest son always told me. Based on what I read here and all thru out car clubs, I don't drive it like I STOLE IT! But I do push the 2nd gear to 3rd every now and then but that ain't ****. That's like passing a car on the highway. Got a brand new wife who loves mustangs, so she loves riding in the hawk. So I'm getting all the advise and reading up to come to a decision so when the speed bleeder gets here in a couple days I'll know what's next. The hawk is worth spending $600 or so plus some bearings, but I'm not pulling this tranny out anytime soon again. Thanks

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

The 2nd-4th is what jacks up the clutch. It's a sustained rpm thing. It's really no different than in the old school cars with mechanical linkage. Sometimes the pressure plate would get weak and the clutch pedal would stick to the floor. The same is happening with the hydraulics which are probably fine for the most part. It's the pp fingers sucking in at high rpm then there is not enough throw to reach the faded position of the pp fingers. The longer your at high rpms the the longer and further the fingers move. I bet you can get the 1-2-3 shift fine and then 4th gets notchy and sometimes 3rd will be notchy .
Reducing the load on the crank reduces that stress. You talk about the massive bulk already turning.......who the hell wants to add to the massive bulk???? Not me
All are to heavy. Needs to be 36lb or less. My clutch weighs 17lb for the whole thing.....flywheel to pp....all of it.

McCloud would probably be your best choice op.
This is not the case with these cars. Slave and master swap is a joke for the most part. ....been there done that. I'm still on the stock master with my tilton and it never gives up at high rpm.

The only thing all this bleeding and slave/master swapping does is reset the slave......which is actually a hydraulic release bearing.

3Camaros

I had the exact same problem you describe, replaced the master cylinder first, pulled the transmission and replaced the slave cylinder, problem solved. Then about 30,000 miles later my clutch began slipping under full throttle over 4500 rpm. Then I went back in and replace the clutch (and I went with a OEM type LUK, it was cheap). No problems with it and now about 12,000 miles on it.
I know you think you have a lot of work in pulling the transmission but actually you are only about half way there. You are going to need a good impact to get those crank bolts loose. The hardest part of the clutch replacement is probably going to be removing the pilot bearing from the crankshaft, I wound up grinding mine out.

sleepinghawk

HioSSilver;17748872]The 2nd-4th is what jacks up the clutch. It's a sustained rpm thing. It's really no different than in the old school cars with mechanical linkage. Sometimes the pressure plate would get weak and the clutch pedal would stick to the floor. The same is happening with the hydraulics which are probably fine for the most part. It's the pp fingers sucking in at high rpm then there is not enough throw to reach the faded position of the pp fingers. The longer your at high rpms the the longer and further the fingers move. I bet you can get the 1-2-3 shift fine and then 4th gets notchy and sometimes 3rd will be notchy .

Until a few weeks ago when I was headed to Lowe's, I had no problem what ever with the clutch. Before that as far as shifting fast, I had not done anything from 2nd gear to 3rd in atleast 1 year.But honestly I had no problem getting the gears when I did. Before this Lowe's trip it was just driving around town and what not. No beating at all. Before that it was a summer trip to the beach with no problems. That's why this was so odd when I started moving in 1st at the light going to Lowe's. I actually drove it to Lowe's 10 miles alot of lights but no high speeds but having to pump the pedal. Then I had to drive it home. By the time I cut the car off, and restarted it, I could not get any gear. Next day, saw all the black **** in the bowl and replaced the dirty fluid with new. Din't help a thing. Car has been on blocks since.
So if I had to bet I would guess the slave, but I wish I could tell without taking the clutch apart if it's worn. I feel my downshifting alot on hills and my left foot not being completely off the pedal did me any good!

sleepinghawk

Yea, that's why I was hoping to figure out if it's worn without doing alot of work. But I don't want to go thru this with just replacing the slave, then next year have to pull it down for a clutch. Yea all the video's which are really good, don't show the hard parts, they just show how to do it. Atleast they took the time to show it. Guy on here Blue Knight is the main one that I went with and he left out all the hard parts! But it still helped me. I pretty much took off my exhaust from the headers cause it would not pass the Y pipe. I have a impact gun, so I'll just tackle the bearings when I get there. Hopefully the low mileage will help when I get to the bearings.

3Camaros

I did my clutch in a weekend , I spend way too much time on that pilot bearing, first I broke the Autozone loaner tool pilot bearing puller, then I bought a better one from Napa, then I would up taking a pencil grinder and just hogging it out till I could remove it in pieces. The right way to replace a clutch is to also go with new pilot bearing, new flywheel, new pressure plate and the new slave cylinder. But many people skip a few of these parts.

sleepinghawk

Yea, I have watched 3 video's on installing one. Nobody had any problems with their bearings as usual! As far as replacing everything, ie bearings, they are all getting replaced. I borrow everything from Auto Zone. I did new axle seals and you can't beat it when the tools are free! I have a brand new slave still in the box and the plate and flywheel are getting replaced. I figure every evening this week I'll start pulling the clutch down since I doubt I'll be able to tell it's worn without pulling part of it off anyway. Just lost alot of time this past week cause of rain everyday. Work wears me out and then I go under a car for 2 hrs till dark with no help. Could be worse! I won't be in a hurry so once it's all out then I'll order what I figure is the best replacement for it.

Philbo Baggins

What tech sheet or calculation exactly is it that asserts that optimum clutch kit weight is 36lbs or less?

And weight of the things attached to the crank is only partly what causes the shock load. The two biggest factors are how quickly the clutch engages on contact (which is more sudden [i.e. harder] in sport aftermarket and more gradual in factory setups) and how much traction your tires have. Not to mention how much torque the motor is making itself.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

The common sense tech sheet. every 1lb rotating at engine speed is like 15lbs of dead weight.....via Chet Herbert

Put a 1lb rock in your hand and rotate it. Then put a 2lb rock in your hand and rotate it. Then think about that force @5,000 rpm.

The shock load and part breakage mostly happens due to wheel hop. But clutch weight will transfer more inertia force if it's heavier. Another test for ya......drop a 5lb weight on your foot....then drop a 10lb weight on your other foot. Let us know which one hurts more.

Philbo Baggins

Oh okay, the common sense tech sheet.

So then that's like, uh, your opinion man

Side not: human muscles fatigue quickly because of lactic acid. Cars are machines, this does not happen. 36lbs = arbitrary number

I've seen more cars break on the hit without the wheels spinning than i've ever seen break otherwise.

Cars are not made of squishy elastic soft tissue, they are engineered from metals designed for consistent punishment. A body builder or pro athlete would rotate the same rock for a longer period of time than i would without fatigue. Because they're made for bodily punishment

If you want to use unrelated analogies: Take a wooden ruler, bend it to it's breaking point. The more fluidly you do that the more the ruler accepts bending till it finally cracks. That's a factory clutch attacking the trans

Take another identical ruler and just smack it, its breaking point is sooner. That's an aggressive aftermarket clutch attacking the trans

The same analogy can be used to describe the way automatic vs manual transmissions attack the rear diff. (but i still think automatics are maxipads)

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

36~ lb is what a aluminum flywheel and a lightened spec weighs. That's where the number came from. So not arbitrary at all. It's about the lightest he can go w/o custom ****.


The rest of the post about muscles, rulers and auto's I could care less about.

Philbo Baggins

Hey man you're the one who brought out rock + arm = fatigue analogies so don't hate on me for it.

Just because some aftermarket company made a good sport clutch that weighs X pounds doesn't mean they all have to weigh that much or that it's some kind of ideal weight. GM spent more R&D time and money designing their clutches than any aftermarket company ever did. GM designs their cars to last a long time in factory spec. That's why most factory clutches last over 100k and why most LS1 cars that are close to stock last over 200k (as the whole car itself). When you start making this and that more hardcore then your longevity reduces.


@sleepinghawk: From the sound of things your clutch is probably still good and putting the new slave on will fix your issues. Doing a clutch swap isn't overly complicated if you're mechanically inclined and follow directions well. I'd get a buddy to help you out, 2 eyes better than 1 and all that. If you take the clutch kit off and aren't sure how to judge the wear on it then show it, or pictures of it, to someone and see what they think. But if it's not slipping it might just be hydraulics ******* with your pedal

If however you're like me and say to yourself "i already took this much off so i might as well" and go and do the whole clutch and flywheel issue. Well a factory type clutch could probably see you through another decade or more. I've never heard of an aftermarket lasting more than 80k miles and most i see last 40k. I get the impression you don't want to replace your gear every 60-70k miles. Though with the miles you put on these days it could take you 20 more years to hit 60k lol. I think for comfortable driving and longevity an LS7 kit is the way to go (LS1 and Ls6 kits are cheaper but not enough to be worth the price drop when you consider the slip threshold difference). Maybe someone else knows about an aftermarket kit that lasts a long *** time but i haven't come across one.

If you don't mind putting the time in, it might be worth just putting the slave on and bolting everything back up and see how the car drives. It may (or may not) save you the money for the time being. That's all it comes down to really, how much time or money you feel like putting up and what you want your car to feel and drive like.

sleepinghawk

Well, all I did last night was think about the car and decided when I got off work I would start pulling the clutch down. I thought about putting the slave on like you said and putting it all back together. Then it was that famous, what if! I thought about pulling it down and then putting pictures up like you said, then it's like I said from the beginning. If it's partly worn, then what the hell. I'll put new back in and keep the girl forever. I wanted to know if the slave would fix it, but I really don't care now. Hell, I like wrenching on the car and testing my skills and making her better. I don't like pissing away money, but it's a 50% shot that the slave would solve it, and that's not going to work for me. I can't put it back together just to find out it has to come down again cause the clutch is slipping now.
I only got as far as taking the bolts off the bell part, then had to stop.So tomorrow and everyday after work I'll work on it till the clutch is off. I'll either put some pictures up of the clutch, or I'll get someone who know's about clutches to tell me their thoughts and I'll say what they tell me. I do want to know if my habits abused it over the years anyway.
Yes, that's exactly what I thought about last night. Having it apart this far! Time..... I have for the hawk. It's been a great car and it's very important that I get it close to how it drove before this happened So the old clutch is coming out and the new LS7 one will get ordered soon.

Philbo Baggins

I hope everything works out for you it's definitely a sweet car. I personally found in mine that it was a month or two after the slave started being weird that the clutch started slipping. My thinking is all that dust getting into the fluid to mess up the slave came from the clutch to start with. Also i've heard than downshifting when decelerating is really hard on the clutch so if you do that, it could be a culprit. My dad taught me how to drive on a 5-speed and told me not to downshift to decelerate because "brakes are cheaper than transmissions." So basically what i do when i come up on a stop is brake in 5th (or whatever gear) till the rpms drop to 1000 then put it in neutral and brake/coast the remainder. Except coming off the highway when i'm in 6th i'll brake that til 1k then drop to 5th til 1k then neutral. Maybe that helps clutch longevity maybe not but i do it either way

sleepinghawk

Well my downshifting to slow down was all wrong. Bad habit I got into and right after when I bought it, my oldest drove it and when I saw him breaking with the brakes, I told him to use the gears! Well, I honestly didn't know. Never thought it thru. And that explains why I still have the original brake pads! I had read about 6 months ago not to downshift like I was doing. That there was a correct way but I wasn't doing it right. So now that and my lazy left foot is going to tell on me when I get it apart. Atleast now I can change those habits, cause brakes are easy. There were alot of times I used only the brakes, but alot of times to hear her downshift. I'll know before long.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

You don't work your arm till it fatigues...... You do it just to feel what the engine feels. But instead a doin it at the slow rate of your arm......you multiply it. Think of those forces at 5500.

Yea.....gm did a great job on these clutches. They put that weak clutch in to save the rearend. Can't you figure anything out for yourself?

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Well you answered my question right here. Let me tell you something.......if you have clutch dust in your fluid.....you have a leak.....or your fluid in on the ground......how ever you want to look at it.

Philbo Baggins

If there were a leak, then the fluid level would decrease. Or you would be able to see it leaking. The bell housing has a vent in it right underneath the slave. What actually happens is the dust in the bell house covers the slave (because it's right there) and as the slave actuates repeatedly dust seeps in through the seals and gets into the fluid. Over time that contaminated fluid eats away the seals in the slave cylinder until the cylinder no longer holds hydraulic pressure. It doesn't have to literally be leaking fluid for it not to hold hydraulic pressure.

And it wasn't the clutch that was designed to save the rearend, not in F-bodies, it was the master cylinder. It was designed to prevent super tight and instant engagement, so rears would make it through warranty more easily. Problem is that same hydraulic set up designed to save rears also kills clutches. And the stock LS1 clutch wasn't very robust to begin with. Not in terms of cars with upgraded power. That's why so many people do the "drill mod" to make their shifts faster in f-bodies.

The cars were made to be easy to drive and long lasting. They left hardcore racing equipment like clutches and rears up to consumers and aftermarket. They have to cut corners somewhere to make the car affordable for the average joe. So they put a shitty rear in it. It's like the transmissions in GTP's, those start breaking quickly once the car makes much more than stock power. Or how Ford used to put T-5s in their V8 cars

sleepinghawk

Just an update.
After installing the new LS7 clutch, new pilot bearing, new slave and new OEM Master, I'm still on blocks.
First problem, 2 10mm bolts holding the slave, stripped. Had to do the coil thing. Seems it happens to a few. No biggie.
After seeing that my clutch had alot of spots (burn looks) all on it I'm glad I decided to just replace it all.
Next and biggest problem, after putting everything back together, Reading as much as I can find, I bled bled and bled. I first bled with the new Tick speed bleeder. Worth every penny! Then did the pumping the pedal using the Speed bleeder, by myself. Didn't change anything. Still no gears. Then I did the speed bleeder with my wife pumping the pedal slow 3-5 times and holding it down, then I cracked the Tick speed b. Still nothing. Tried disconnecting the line where it connects to the slave, pumping slow for 2-4 times then pushing in the check valve thing. No change. No gears while car idles. Car off and I get any gear.
Still thinking at this point I must of put something back backwards or 1 of those 10mm bolts on the slave gave. I did use red loctite. But still feeling good about my install.
Never found any signs of leaks, until stopping by during work and when I opened the driver door, there was a small puddle where the fluid was leaking out of the top of the OEM Master.
Who know's why, I have no idea exactly if it was the pumping, the rough install or just the crappy quality of the MC.
So that afternoon I ordered the new Tick Adjusting MC. It came 2 days later!
So don't have time just to work on the car everyday but I hope to atleast get all ready for the install between today, Sunday and next week.
One thing I'm doing after I bleed the Tick MC as it says in the sticky, is to hook the Speed bleeder to the resorvoir so I don't accidently let the fluid get too low or out. Don't have help, so it's a slow but good progress.
The quality of the Tick Master Cylinder is un real when compared to the OEM! Yes, it's a big difference in price, but just hope it solves my problems.
Big thanks to everyone who wrote in this thread. Your input helped alot!