PPG sequential gear box conversion for T56!
If you NEED a chute to safely slow down because of lack of slowdown area..... F that.
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From: Norn Iron
And it will never "really work right" unless installed on a dog engagement type box anyway.
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From: Norn Iron
I know one UK guy recently posted pics of his with the LS installed in an old E30 BMW. Synchro box though....hard to see the value.
Andrew
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From: Norn Iron
But most in the US obsess with autos, so whilst a huge nation...maybe a smaller market.
I see no reason why it shouldnt work quite well with a dog box, a lot will boil down to the ecu or whatever controls you have over actually enabling a flat shift.
Certainly in parts of UK, Europe etc, it's very common for a lot of VW's to run a regular dog box with an SQS sequential shifter as a much cheaper alternative to a full sequential box. And in that format they seem to tolerate some serious power and work very well.
I've even seen the same shifter adapted into other vehicles ( cable operated boxes ) although it wouldnt be practical for any of our types of boxes.
Another adaptable system, but more expensive again..
http://www.mme-motorsport.com/en/pro...paddle-shifter
I see no reason why it shouldnt work quite well with a dog box, a lot will boil down to the ecu or whatever controls you have over actually enabling a flat shift.
Certainly in parts of UK, Europe etc, it's very common for a lot of VW's to run a regular dog box with an SQS sequential shifter as a much cheaper alternative to a full sequential box. And in that format they seem to tolerate some serious power and work very well.
I've even seen the same shifter adapted into other vehicles ( cable operated boxes ) although it wouldnt be practical for any of our types of boxes.
Another adaptable system, but more expensive again..
http://www.mme-motorsport.com/en/pro...paddle-shifter
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On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2007
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You;d probably be close to the same price and have a TRUE sequential box instead of something that tries to copy it.
While the electronics aren't necessary, if you want to have clutchless operation(at least upshifting), you'll need a strain gauge shift **** and associated electronics as well as a PCM that has the ability to deal with that. Clutchless downshifting a mechanically shifted sequential is a whole other ball of wax and if you get to that point, you may as well run a pneumatic actuated paddle shifter and spend 5k on the gear to do electronic up and down shifts with throttle blipping.
IF you already spent 10-13k on the trans, whats another 7-10k to play in the deep end of the pool?
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From: Norn Iron
When you consider the cost of the shifter, the upfront cost of the transmission and then have Liberty face plate it all and do all the other little upgrades, you could just convert your T56 to a PPG sequential kit and be done with it.
You;d probably be close to the same price and have a TRUE sequential box instead of something that tries to copy it.
While the electronics aren't necessary, if you want to have clutchless operation(at least upshifting), you'll need a strain gauge shift **** and associated electronics as well as a PCM that has the ability to deal with that. Clutchless downshifting a mechanically shifted sequential is a whole other ball of wax and if you get to that point, you may as well run a pneumatic actuated paddle shifter and spend 5k on the gear to do electronic up and down shifts with throttle blipping.
IF you already spent 10-13k on the trans, whats another 7-10k to play in the deep end of the pool?
You;d probably be close to the same price and have a TRUE sequential box instead of something that tries to copy it.
While the electronics aren't necessary, if you want to have clutchless operation(at least upshifting), you'll need a strain gauge shift **** and associated electronics as well as a PCM that has the ability to deal with that. Clutchless downshifting a mechanically shifted sequential is a whole other ball of wax and if you get to that point, you may as well run a pneumatic actuated paddle shifter and spend 5k on the gear to do electronic up and down shifts with throttle blipping.
IF you already spent 10-13k on the trans, whats another 7-10k to play in the deep end of the pool?
So an OEM gear car, vs say a PPG gear car, vs an actual sequential gearbox offering....they will all have pros and cons on the mechanical side alone.
Clutchless downshifting is a piece of **** with the right ecu and DBW. Again some might already have this in place too, others not.
Paddle shifters air or otherwise are not needed at all, but yes some will like them too, but again independent features. Although they can have one benefit with the right controls, or preventing the user making any wrong shifts that might put the engine at risk. ( ie cracking down a couple of gears..when you didnt mean to ! )
But when most on here just drag race...usually only using 1-4 gears. You could really argue the value for money of any of the above when there is only 3 shifts involved !
Although if ratios suited, you could easily extend to using 5th in the 1/4 with no real downside with proper sequential shifting, and it might offer performance benefits.
Either way, it's great to see people are developing options for us all despite any costs.
You don’t need fancy stuff for clutchless downshifts with a dog box. You simply rev match, no need for the clutch. Ever watch NASCAR guys at a road course? Left foot brake, never touch the clutch to downshift, blip the throttle while selecting gear.
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From: Norn Iron
There's a lot of things you dont need to do, but they'll last a lot longer when done right.
How is the computer controlled clutchless downshifting any different that manually rev matching? You are accomplishing the exact same thing. Yes, a paddle set up eliminates the chance of the driver making a mistake, but it makes absolutely no difference in terms of wear and tear. We have half a dozen cars at the shop with these types of transmissions, and none of our drivers ever downshift using the clutch. No issues.
You must not be familiar with modern dog boxes (both H pattern and sequential). The boxes we use last entire seasons without needing anything but fluid changes. We rarely ever service our Andrews 4 speeds, the modern components are so much better than the good stuff that was produced 10-15 years ago. Yeah, NASCAR cup teams rebuild after every race- but it’s not always necessary. They do it to eliminate the chance of failure because there’s a lot at stake when you compete for a cup championship. Most NASCAR teams do lots of costly things that aren’t necessary. We use the same transmissions in our Trans Am car, and we don’t touch it all season. We’re talking a full season of wheel to wheel racing with pro drivers. If they don’t kill the gearboxes, nobody will.
You must not be familiar with modern dog boxes (both H pattern and sequential). The boxes we use last entire seasons without needing anything but fluid changes. We rarely ever service our Andrews 4 speeds, the modern components are so much better than the good stuff that was produced 10-15 years ago. Yeah, NASCAR cup teams rebuild after every race- but it’s not always necessary. They do it to eliminate the chance of failure because there’s a lot at stake when you compete for a cup championship. Most NASCAR teams do lots of costly things that aren’t necessary. We use the same transmissions in our Trans Am car, and we don’t touch it all season. We’re talking a full season of wheel to wheel racing with pro drivers. If they don’t kill the gearboxes, nobody will.
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
How is the computer controlled clutchless downshifting any different that manually rev matching? You are accomplishing the exact same thing. Yes, a paddle set up eliminates the chance of the driver making a mistake, but it makes absolutely no difference in terms of wear and tear. We have half a dozen cars at the shop with these types of transmissions, and none of our drivers ever downshift using the clutch. No issues.
You must not be familiar with modern dog boxes (both H pattern and sequential). The boxes we use last entire seasons without needing anything but fluid changes. We rarely ever service our Andrews 4 speeds, the modern components are so much better than the good stuff that was produced 10-15 years ago. Yeah, NASCAR cup teams rebuild after every race- but it’s not always necessary. They do it to eliminate the chance of failure because there’s a lot at stake when you compete for a cup championship. Most NASCAR teams do lots of costly things that aren’t necessary. We use the same transmissions in our Trans Am car, and we don’t touch it all season. We’re talking a full season of wheel to wheel racing with pro drivers. If they don’t kill the gearboxes, nobody will.
You must not be familiar with modern dog boxes (both H pattern and sequential). The boxes we use last entire seasons without needing anything but fluid changes. We rarely ever service our Andrews 4 speeds, the modern components are so much better than the good stuff that was produced 10-15 years ago. Yeah, NASCAR cup teams rebuild after every race- but it’s not always necessary. They do it to eliminate the chance of failure because there’s a lot at stake when you compete for a cup championship. Most NASCAR teams do lots of costly things that aren’t necessary. We use the same transmissions in our Trans Am car, and we don’t touch it all season. We’re talking a full season of wheel to wheel racing with pro drivers. If they don’t kill the gearboxes, nobody will.
And control over any blips or shift cuts will absolutely make a huge difference to wear and tear of the dogs. I've seen people destroy a gearbox after 1 event with bad shifting, and others last years and still be perfect.
I'm very familiar with dog boxes....and how people can damage the dogs with poor or improper shifting.
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2007
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How is the computer controlled clutchless downshifting any different that manually rev matching? You are accomplishing the exact same thing. Yes, a paddle set up eliminates the chance of the driver making a mistake, but it makes absolutely no difference in terms of wear and tear. We have half a dozen cars at the shop with these types of transmissions, and none of our drivers ever downshift using the clutch. No issues.
You must not be familiar with modern dog boxes (both H pattern and sequential). The boxes we use last entire seasons without needing anything but fluid changes. We rarely ever service our Andrews 4 speeds, the modern components are so much better than the good stuff that was produced 10-15 years ago. Yeah, NASCAR cup teams rebuild after every race- but it’s not always necessary. They do it to eliminate the chance of failure because there’s a lot at stake when you compete for a cup championship. Most NASCAR teams do lots of costly things that aren’t necessary. We use the same transmissions in our Trans Am car, and we don’t touch it all season. We’re talking a full season of wheel to wheel racing with pro drivers. If they don’t kill the gearboxes, nobody will.
You must not be familiar with modern dog boxes (both H pattern and sequential). The boxes we use last entire seasons without needing anything but fluid changes. We rarely ever service our Andrews 4 speeds, the modern components are so much better than the good stuff that was produced 10-15 years ago. Yeah, NASCAR cup teams rebuild after every race- but it’s not always necessary. They do it to eliminate the chance of failure because there’s a lot at stake when you compete for a cup championship. Most NASCAR teams do lots of costly things that aren’t necessary. We use the same transmissions in our Trans Am car, and we don’t touch it all season. We’re talking a full season of wheel to wheel racing with pro drivers. If they don’t kill the gearboxes, nobody will.
Upshifts with torque cut is easy, lifting and upshifting is stupid easy and cheap.
Downshifting WITHOUT the clutch ie CLUTCHLESS is a much bigger issue as you have no way to unload the dogs. In a car you can destroy the trans trying to force it into a lower gear without the clutch and locking up the wheels is a very likely possibility. On a moto, the worst you will do is lock up the rear tire and high side which is why they use slipper clutches.
There is a lot of things that need to happen in order to downshift clutchless and with a manual shifter, the link above will explain a lot.
Last edited by matty b; Nov 14, 2017 at 09:02 PM.
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
http://www.geartronics.co.uk/blippers.htm
Upshifts with torque cut is easy, lifting and upshifting is stupid easy and cheap.
Downshifting WITHOUT the clutch ie CLUTCHLESS is a much bigger issue as you have no way to unload the dogs. In a car you can destroy the trans trying to force it into a lower gear without the clutch and locking up the wheels is a very likely possibility. On a moto, the worst you will do is lock up the rear tire and high side which is why they use slipper clutches.
There is a lot of things that need to happen in order to downshift clutchless and with a manual shifter, the link above will explain a lot.
Upshifts with torque cut is easy, lifting and upshifting is stupid easy and cheap.
Downshifting WITHOUT the clutch ie CLUTCHLESS is a much bigger issue as you have no way to unload the dogs. In a car you can destroy the trans trying to force it into a lower gear without the clutch and locking up the wheels is a very likely possibility. On a moto, the worst you will do is lock up the rear tire and high side which is why they use slipper clutches.
There is a lot of things that need to happen in order to downshift clutchless and with a manual shifter, the link above will explain a lot.
Trying to manually think about it and do it may feel like you're doing it well..sometimes. I doubt the dogs will be happy most of the time though
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2015
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Changing gears in millisecs may sound great, but what about the accompanying near instant change in rpm that the engine's rotating assy must make? Without clutch slip of some sort, the typical v8 will have a huge inertia exchange problem to deal with. Lots of gears with super close spacing and a flyweight rotating assy would help, but here we are talking about adding clutchless shift to a T56 behind a typical v8. Unless you are drifting, it's not going to work for any sort of serious track car.
Grant
Grant
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From: Norn Iron
It sounds great, and is great.
And whilst yes flat upshifts will be pretty violent on the crank, as are many aspects of driving fast, sequential boxes are not new and certainly not unproven.
If you think it wont work for a serious track car..I can only assume you've never seen any serious track/circuit racing, where pretty much every car out there will have a sequential box....and have done for many many years, as have rally cars and many others.
And whilst yes flat upshifts will be pretty violent on the crank, as are many aspects of driving fast, sequential boxes are not new and certainly not unproven.
If you think it wont work for a serious track car..I can only assume you've never seen any serious track/circuit racing, where pretty much every car out there will have a sequential box....and have done for many many years, as have rally cars and many others.