BW

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by White Fire:
<strong> Like I said before BW, MOST supras, not all of them. It is common knowledge that the stock supra block is ungodly strong, but what does this prove? . Your whole stock block argument is worthless, sounds like a excuse more then an argument. So what the stock block is built? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Does that make you feel better about yourself that an LS1's aren't as internally strong stock as a supra? Given time, an LS-1 will be right with the supra, with the stock block. Your supra humping tactics are really pathetic. I admit supra's are fast as hell and can dominate, as I respect any fast car, but you are sad. From a different post I believe you said "LS-what", that just shows ignorance and stupidity. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">geez, good thing you dont read cz28.com and hear what the lt-1 guys say about the ls-1 guys.

quote from a die hard lt-1'r
"i reach back like a pimp, and slap that ls-1"

want his email address or his board name, so you can be like his mom and tell him that is so wrong to throw a joke or a stab in at an ls-1. i'll be happy to do so.

BW

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JF WS6:
<strong> And was this 6 second time achieved only a few years after this engine was available?

It's only fair to give the Gen III based engines the same amount of development time to progress that this import 6 banger has had.

There are plenty of domestic V8 based carbureted engines capable of running similar times in the right platform (and without relying on a monster power adder for the bulk of the power I might add) - what's so hard about imagining a better designed, more technologically advanced series of engines being able to do the same or better in due time? You don't see the real expanse of what an engine platform can do until quite a few years after it's been available to develop for. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Over 68,000 Ls-1 Fbodys have been made in 98-01, didnt even look up 02, and the corvettes.

only 6,977 turbo supra's were ever made.

you're motor has been out for over 5 years, and how many more cars, shops, people reserching is there...

saying just wait is a poor excuse.

White Fire

BW,

Your comment was immature, despite what other people say on different boards. While I am very impressd that the 2jz supra motor has gone really fast in such a short amout of time, it's not very hard at all to make a car go fast when you crank the boost up to 30 psi. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_images/icons/tongue.gif" /> LS1's came from the factory NA, and thus by default most people are going to build them to run NA, which IMO takes more effort and expertise then slapping a bigger turbo on a supra and building a fuel system to handle it. Forced induction is starting to catch on with the arrival of an affordable turbo kit for LS-1's via LS1motorsports. The future looks very interesting <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

BW

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by chikn:
<strong> I dont understand the point of bragging about a supra and its stock block. Lets see what one can do with its STOCK turbo then compare that to a stock bottomed LS1. Is it capable of running 9's with its stock turbo?? I seriously doubt it. Is a LS1 capable of running 9's with its stock bottom end....yep it is. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yeah that good, turbo moves air into the motor, stock bottom end doesnt.

keep your heads and cam stock on the ls1 and see how far it will go...

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: BW ]</small>

BW

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http://www.geocities.com/tt_95_6spd/DYNOGRAPH_PICS.html


hit high 10s on spray, low 11s without. look at his dyno, and time slips for proof.

BW

iTrader: (1)

But the boost is still turned up. Thats a turbo mod not to mention a new intercooler not to mention 100 shot spray to get it to 10's.

how is turning up the OEM boost level, a turbo mod, not changing the wheels, housing, or making it a ball bearing unit. just raising the boost, like an NA would raise timing....

btw, intercooler isnt a "turbo mod".... it's still the stock turbo. if an intercooler does anything, just makes a pressure loss, and will slow you down.

just start coming up with even more excuses, like he doesnt have the factory tank of gas, or the air the tires came with stock.

Thats my point... saying a NA engine cant do this or that with stock heads and cam bottom end is exactly like me saying a turbo car cant do **** without any turbo mods.

just advance your timing, until it goes fast, or goes bang. they are doing the same in the supra, but just raising the boost instead of timing. never once touching the turbo, or the wheels, housings inside/outside.

Dont touch those TT's on a supra and what will it do. It cant go anywhere without more boost thats simply my point. Just as you cant take an LS1 into the 10's without spray or a good H/C setup.

no you can't but... i've seen plenty of stock ls1 motor cars dip into the high 11s. they just play with the tuning, suspension, and wheel/tire combo, and a free flowing intake/exhaust setup, and a convertor.


So saying one can do something that the other cant do without modifying goes both ways. Take the turbo completely off it and then what happens. You got a 16 second car.

obviously you dont know that a turbocharged car takes certain things into account in order to handle forced induction. including such things as a low c/r.

i can just as much,
Put a turbo/sc running 12psi on your motor and then what happens. You've got a blown up car.

btw, the N/A supra is a high 14 second car. i've yet to see anybody take a TT supra, and take off the turbos and run it.

Im not knocking the Supra in any way. If the price for them wasnt so ridiculous Id probably own one. But with a 13k purchase price of my car vs. the 50k to buy a USED supra is down right crazy. Ill easily be in the 10's in less than a month once the DP setup is finished with a total of 16k in my car (car+mods). Do that in your supra.

Who fault is it that american car(s)that holds NO value. I could buy up a turbo buick for 5 grand, and put 11 grand into it, and walk you all day and night.
just because some people choose to buy an expensive car or a car that will hold it's value and wont drop 25 grand off the lot (like a zo6) shouldn't be an excuse or saying i've got 16k total in mine to run 11s...

you are proud to own a car that depreciates faster than a burning building?

JF WS6

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BW:
<strong> Over 68,000 Ls-1 Fbodys have been made in 98-01, didnt even look up 02, and the corvettes.

only 6,977 turbo supra's were ever made.

you're motor has been out for over 5 years, and how many more cars, shops, people reserching is there...

saying just wait is a poor excuse. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How is this a poor excuse?! Somehow JUST BECAUSE there are less Supra's produced doesn't change anything! If anything your response is a poor rebuttal.

Does the fact that there are more cars with an LS1 engine on the road somehow change the fact the gen III's have been out only 5 years???? No it doesn't. Does that mean that there are more developers and tuners for the engine JUST BECAUSE there are more cars?? Again, no it doesn't.

If there are so many more shops doing R&D, then why aren't there worthy aftermarket intake choices, aftermarket heads and more research done on cam profiles etc.?? Most people even using stroker engines are using just the plain Jane LS6 intake that is a stock piece. Some are using sheetmetal intakes, but they are relatively inefficient overall so far. Heads are nothing more so far than just ported stock castings, there currently aren't any aftermarket heads for the LS1 such as from AFS for the LT1. Heck HotRod magazine doesn't even have a clue about the LS1. They just printed an article about "400RWHP" out of a stock bottom end LS1. People have been doing that for a few years now!

Dude, look at how many different choices there are to build a BB Chevy or SB Chevy V8 or even a Mopar V8. There are many different styles of heads, cams, intakes, stroker/bore setups, nitrous systems, turbos, superchargers etc. etc.
The LS1 doesn't even remotely have support like these older engines do and a properly built mega cube BB Chevy in the right car CAN ET better than that record holding Supra. You honestly don't think the Gen III motors are capable of besting the older generation V8's with the proper R&D? Get real and think about that. If you want to be a doubting Thomas and won't believe it till you see it, that's cool but it will happen.

You may think that many of us are "close minded" or whatever - but you guys are just as much in your own opposite way. You're not even aware of where aftermarket R&D is with these engines to even make an intelligent argument.

JF WS6

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BW:
how is turning up the OEM boost level, a turbo mod, not changing the wheels, housing, or making it a ball bearing unit. just raising the boost, like an NA would raise timing....

just advance your timing, until it goes fast, or goes bang. they are doing the same in the supra, but just raising the boost instead of timing. never once touching the turbo, or the wheels, housings inside/outside.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dude, that's one of the lamest analogies I've heard you use yet. Adjusting timing is NOT AT ALL like cranking up boost on a FI vehicle. Doesn't the FI engine have ignition timing as well? Yeah. You're talking about adjusting a power adder on a turbo car to a car that doesn't even HAVE ONE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Who fault is it that american car(s)that holds NO value. I could buy up a turbo buick for 5 grand, and put 11 grand into it, and walk you all day and night.
just because some people choose to buy an expensive car or a car that will hold it's value and wont drop 25 grand off the lot (like a zo6) shouldn't be an excuse or saying i've got 16k total in mine to run 11s...

you are proud to own a car that depreciates faster than a burning building?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Supra's weren't even remotely as expensive until that gay "Furious ****" movie came out, then the prices went through the roof because every one wanted one.

BTW, it's people such as yourself whose fault it is that American cars don't hold value. In Japan people drive Japanese cars in support of their country, and also because their choice is limited. If you had a TransAm in Japan, you'd probably get a lot more attention than if you had a Sylvia or a Supra. A friend of mine who worked with a Japanese business man told me that the first thing he did when he moved to the US is buy a Cadillac because he couldn't get one before.

In the USA where people have more choices and freedoms to do what they like, rather than supporting the country that gives those choices to them many choose to crap on it and take it for granted.

If everything Japanese is so much better, why don't you move there.

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: JF WS6 ]</small>

BW

iTrader: (1)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by JF WS6:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by BW:
how is turning up the OEM boost level, a turbo mod, not changing the wheels, housing, or making it a ball bearing unit. just raising the boost, like an NA would raise timing....

just advance your timing, until it goes fast, or goes bang. they are doing the same in the supra, but just raising the boost instead of timing. never once touching the turbo, or the wheels, housings inside/outside.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Dude, that's one of the lamest analogies I've heard you use yet. Adjusting timing is NOT AT ALL like cranking up boost on a FI vehicle. Doesn't the FI engine have ignition timing as well? Yeah. You're talking about adjusting a power adder on a turbo car to a car that doesn't even HAVE ONE.

increasing timing on anything but the perfectly engineered racecar will almost always yield hp gains. saying don't touch the boost level is THE lamest of all analgies i've ever heard, what's next. don't race when its cold out, because you boost level may go up a psi or two, or spool will be greatly effected...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
Who fault is it that american car(s)that holds NO value. I could buy up a turbo buick for 5 grand, and put 11 grand into it, and walk you all day and night.
just because some people choose to buy an expensive car or a car that will hold it's value and wont drop 25 grand off the lot (like a zo6) shouldn't be an excuse or saying i've got 16k total in mine to run 11s...

you are proud to own a car that depreciates faster than a burning building?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Supra's weren't even remotely as expensive until that gay "Furious ****" movie came out, then the prices went through the roof because every one wanted one.

car was 52k new, and still and always will go for a good price. pretty much the same for any japense sports car. did the movie help? sure, but is it the only reason, i highly doubt that. just people love owning great cars, that last, and don't break, and rattle. when the supra came out in 93.5 that same year you never saw one for sale for low 30s, like you do now with z06s.

BTW, it's people such as yourself whose fault it is that American cars don't hold value. In Japan people drive Japanese cars in support of their country, and also because their choice is limited. If you had a TransAm in Japan, you'd probably get a lot more attention than if you had a Sylvia or a Supra. A friend of mine who worked with a Japanese business man told me that the first thing he did when he moved to the US is buy a Cadillac because he couldn't get one before.
I have many friends that export any US car you want to Japan, and you can get any car here in the states there. And how is it my fault that america cars hold no value, is it because at my house we have 4 domestics?

In the USA where people have more choices and freedoms to do what they like, rather than supporting the country that gives those choices to them many choose to crap on it and take it for granted.

If everything Japanese is so much better, why don't you move there.

I never said everything Japanese is better, and don't even own a Japanese car. i drive a gm.

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: BW ]</small>

JF WS6

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BW:
increasing timing on anything but the perfectly engineered racecar will almost always yield hp gains. saying don't touch the boost level is THE lamest of all analgies i've ever heard, what's next. don't race when its cold out, because you boost level may go up a psi or two, or spool will be greatly effected... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Let's get this straight, I agree saying "don't touch the boost level.." is lame, but I never said that - someone else did. I was just saying engine timing and boost levels are 2 different things, and hold no relevance comparing the 2 as if that is an apples to apples comparison. Agreed?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
car was 52k new, and still and always will go for a good price. pretty much the same for any japense sports car. did the movie help? sure, but is it the only reason, i highly doubt that. just people love owning great cars, that last, and don't break, and rattle. when the supra came out in 93.5 that same year you never saw one for sale for low 30s, like you do now with z06s.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please show me a Z06 that costs like 32K, cause I would've bought it instead of my TA.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I have many friends that export any US car you want to Japan, and you can get any car here in the states there. And how is it my fault that america cars hold no value, is it because at my house we have 4 domestics?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I stand corrected then and commend you for supporting the US car manufacturers. Many people I know do not, and consistently bash any American car many times undeservedly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
I never said everything Japanese is better, and don't even own a Japeanese car.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why not? My bad for assuming you atleast owned and drove one of the cars you are backing.

Honestly, I do really like Supra's and especially Skyline's, but they are unfortunately much too expensive, and too expensive to mod. What gets me worked up is the notion that American cars aren't as powerful or capable as these cars are, and I don't feel that's true at all.

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: JF WS6 ]</small>

BW

iTrader: (1)

agree'd, they both make power, but not in the same way.

http://www.z06vette.com/ has had a few over the pass few months, same with ebay.

yup.

and yeah, but it is good to see this hasnt turned into a stupid "owned" fest, with pictures left and right, and both parties are listening and bringing up good points.....

JF WS6

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BW:
<strong> agree'd, they both make power, but not in the same way.

http://www.z06vette.com/ has had a few over the pass few months, same with ebay.

yup.

and yeah, but it is good to see this hasnt turned into a stupid "owned" fest, with pictures left and right, and both parties are listening and bringing up good points..... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Agreed...... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

I thought FYRARMS or somebody said you had a Skyline or something?

BW

iTrader: (1)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by chikn:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by BW:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by chikn:
<strong> I dont understand the point of bragging about a supra and its stock block. Lets see what one can do with its STOCK turbo then compare that to a stock bottomed LS1. Is it capable of running 9's with its stock turbo?? I seriously doubt it. Is a LS1 capable of running 9's with its stock bottom end....yep it is. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yeah that good, turbo moves air into the motor, stock bottom end doesnt.

keep your heads and cam stock on the ls1 and see how far it will go... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">11's easily. Bolt on a few (no turbo mods) onto a stock supra what do you have, still 13's maybe high 12's. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">stock turbos, no nitrous is low 11.22 @ 126......

<small>[ April 15, 2003, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: BW ]</small>

Mudge

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by The Kiss Guy:
<strong>What I saw was the other car obviously braking and waiting while the car with the camera took off.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Listen closer and you will hear the horn, nobody was waiting on anyone.

JF WS6

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by FYRARMS:
<strong> I said that BW works on Skylines, and dreams of owning one. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

I drive one Japanese car, and own three domestic rides. I appreciate ALL brands of autos, regardless of where they came from. In fact, I am still looking for a DeTomaso Pantera project car, and might be buying an old Porsche 911SC...

Fast + sexy + obtainable = I love 'em all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ahh, I see. If you work on em though, that means you get to do test drives, right? <img border="0" alt="[evil]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_devil.gif" />

A Pantera would be a very sweet ride. They look awesome. How 'bout a twin turboed small block in that thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

FYRARMS

I said that BW works on Skylines, and dreams of owning one. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

I drive one Japanese car, and own three domestic rides. I appreciate ALL brands of autos, regardless of where they came from. In fact, I am still looking for a DeTomaso Pantera project car, and might be buying an old Porsche 911SC...

Fast + sexy + obtainable = I love 'em all.