RedHotG8

iTrader: (1)

It's funny how a thread about to install or not to install cats got all twisted around by him stating highly unlikely situations about legality of cat location and modding the motor. He even stated that he had no problem passing with no cats and custom tuning, then turns around and says I'm wrong about a properly tuned motor won't pass the test if it has an aftermarket cam. It seems he just twists things around to make himself look good, so I'm done here too.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

U.S.C. 7522(a)(3). Section 203(a)(3)(A):

The following acts and the causing thereof are prohibited—

(A) for any person to remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser, or for any person knowingly to remove or render inoperative any such device or element of design after such sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...2----000-.html

The bolded sections are paramount. Element of design includes factory configuration and location of emissions control devices to obtain initial compliance with USEPA regulations. In this case, the "element of design" includes specific warm-up times for a catalyst device which are affected by catalyst location.

You can skim through all the EPA regs via that link if you like. You can also do further research on the topic and find that interpretation if these regs is very broad by the USEAP, and basically includes any deviation from the originally certified OE configuration of the engine. Some even go so far as to say that higher flowing mufflers could be considered tampering due to the change in backpressure.

The only "legal" way around this would be to spend $2,000+ on a FTP (Federal Test Proceedure) to prove that emissions are not adversely affected.

You could try searching for the November 14, 1997 published letter from Steve Albrink of the Vehicle Programs & Compliance Division of the Office of Mobile Sources of USEPA. He put several of these regs into plain english answers for people in the industry and consumers to understand. I don't have an electronic copy of this, but you might find one if you search long enough.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

No, it started getting twisted by you stating:

and

You basically inferred that running cats, regardless of headers or location, would keep you completely legal. I've merely pointed out that this is wrong, and that you are technically illegal in the eyes of the Fed (which includes all 50 states, whether they actually test or not) even with cats *if* they have been relocated. The same is true of a cam swap or total cat delete, which changes the certified engine configuration. And plenty of performance shops will do both.

You went a step futher and called me out as being wrong here:

You wanted info to support my view. I gave it.

Correct, on a state level. I never said it would pass federal regs or wasn't technically illegal though, that was all you.

Again, it all depends on the test. But where you seem to be misunderstanding is the difference between what you can get away with on a state level, and what is illegal federally.

Whatever gets you to sleep I guess. I've been saying the same thing all along. You are NOT legal in the eyes of the federal government any time you put LT headers on an LS1 car, whether you run cats or not. There is no way to twist that. It is fact. Can you pass certain state tests? YES. Can you pass a FTP (federal test)? NO. Very simple.

You are the one who stated that running cats was a good idea because it's against the law to remove them. Well, it's also against the law to *move* them, so the point is moot. That, however, as no bearing on what you can get away with regionally - which often includes being able to move OR remove cats.

RedHotG8

iTrader: (1)

If it passes the test in the area the car is driven that's all that matters, regardless of where the cats are located and what mods have been installed on/in the motor. I have never heard of anyone's car not passing the emission test because it had LT headers and cats that weren't in the factory location or a performance cam, so lets keep it realistic.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree. But you were the one to make it a point about getting cats to be "legal". If passing is all that matters, you can do so without any cats at all if you live in an OBD scan only state like IL. So legality should be no reason to buy/not buy cats.

Yes, lets keep in realistic. In which case, please do some research on CARB and what you can and cannot get away with in places like CA. They can be very strict. They can easily fail you (on the STATE level) for LTs that move the cats. And if you have to face a sniff test, you'll fail in any location with much more than a mild-ish aftermarket cam. Forget about massive overlap, tuning or not.

ds98formula

iTrader: (3)

you may know that but the person who asked the question did not. you said it in a way that seems like thats all it does. or thats all they look for I was just trying to help the guy that did not know. The moniters and codes are a big part of the scanning and you mentioned nothing of them so I did no need to get so defensive.

nolo200

iTrader: (3)

The only problem with cats is their cost. I would put them on mine solely to help the environment, but I'm not spending the money to do it. BTW...I live in a no emission area....and my LS1 is an engine swap victim.