thatoneguybriz

iTrader: (2)

Antifreeze isn't just for temperature protection. There are several anti-corrosives in the additive package which also reduce scale and mineral build up from using ionized water such as tap water. Still, typical tap water is mildly acidic, and over a long period of time you could see negative effects. All these things are hyper sensitive though if you change your coolant out at regular service intervals. Mixing the factory fill Dexcool with any other coolant is usually more of an issue than the difference in using tap or distilled water.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

Heres a little wake up call. When they sell 50/50 mix in the stores- its 50% (sigh, ANTIFREEZE and related components), and 50% what kind of water? You think they put 50% tap water in their antifreeze 50/50? Hell no. That **** is distilled water, or pure water, it went through some kind of purification process. The more pure the water, the better. Period.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

Hi Geo, the use of water, SOFT WATER is what is best.

I agree TAP water can be bad as I filter my water AND add minerals.
I have a swimming pool, for that I use Water Softener Salt bought at the market.

My suggestion for those here is to manufacture your Soft Water as I do.

NOW for RACING, MANY classes DO NOT ALLOW Glycol based coolant ON THE TRACK/DIRT.

The use of water in cooling systems treated by those products as Water Wetter/Hyper Lube IS ALLOWED

Lance

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

distilled water, is soft. Soft just means the minerals which make water "hard" have been removed.

Many owners manuals plainly recommend distilled water for cooling systems. Why not whip out a late model toyota/nissan/chevy manual and see what it says?

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I can't speak for all the various brands of extended life premixed coolants but, as mentioned above, for any premixed coolant to be labeled as "GM Dexcool Approved" it must be demineralized water mixed with anti-freeze concentrate. That is how they came from the factory. That is all mine has seen for the 19 years since factory assembly. My cooling system is 100% original and has no issues at all. Many years ago, when premixed (which uses demineralized) wasn't readily available, I always used distilled water and mixed up my own batch with anti-freeze concentrate.

SouthernRex

I laughed so hard, thank you. You made my day just now.

RockinWs6

Actually GM Dexcool was designed to be used with drinkable tap water. It one of the reasons they developed it so it would be user friendly. That said I WOULDN"T USE TAP WATER in anything.

Years and years ago I was using tap water in engines and had nothing but trouble. Switched to distilled 25 years ago and no more issues.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

I noticed that also. I have come to the conclusion the conversation went something like this:

Engineer 1: "Ok, I am done designing the cooling system. Just make sure in the manual it says use only distilled wa...

Engineer 2: "Lol, this is a chevy. First off, nobody gonna read the manual. Second, ain't no truck driving redneck ever heard of distilling anything cept' ethanol.

Engineer 1: "Well how are we going to keep the cooling system safe from tap water abuse?"

Engineer 2: "just gonna have to add chelaters and anti microbial to keep whatever junk winds up in there from doing damage for long as possible."

IMO they wanted to make it simple, and protect all the truck driving, manual hating, tap water users, of which there are plenty. Sure, it can be done, chemistry is amazing. That doesn't mean that it is wise, or the best option. "Clean, drinkable water" has a fair range of implication, and in my opinion even while tap water is somewhat "drinkable" it is certainly not "clean".

if we look in the Toyota manuals, or Nissan manuals, I bet it mentions distilled water for the cooling system. Some manufacturers definitely do, I just dont keep track of that. There is this fine line between what the engineers true desires for their vehicle is, and the average expectation of end user intelligence/ability/attention. They blend together to give more flexibility, to help the vehicle survive in a wider range of conditions.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

Hi posters, I find it "odd" that all here are concerned with engine care regarding the maintenance of the cooling system AND NOT ONE concern with respect to coolant voltage measurement.

SURE bad coolant will damage an engine within a years time or longer.

A voltage present in a cooling system WILL damage an engine in miles.

A voltage present in the cooling system when the engine is started will damage the engine at each "start-up".

The AL block/Iron block ratio of damage by voltage IS .1 volt AL/.3 volt Iron.

AIR BAG SUSPENSION :
Those here that use "air bags" in the suspension system MUST GROUND the Transmission to the frame.
The rubber bags generate current that will flow into the engine's coolant causing the AL radiator to be destroyed.

Lance

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This wasn't new or specific to Dexcool. I have manuals from GM vehicles built well prior to Dexcool introduction that also said to use "plain water" (in fact I just verified this with an Oldsmobile manual I have from '86.) This is pretty typical and expected since emergency refills may be needed and tap water is often the most available source.

But the fact remains that any 50/50 premixed coolant sold with a "GM Dexcool Approved" label needs to contain demineralized or deionized water (this information is usually on the jugs themselves, and/or manufacturer data sheets.) This specification makes sense because something as vague as "clean, drinkable water" could lead to wide production variances in mineral content, thus quality/compatibility issues with various premixes. Of course, the terms "demineralized" and "deionized" are also a bit vague since they are technically different processes/standards yet they are often used interchangeably. Regardless, both terms suggest some sort of purification process well beyond basic tap water.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

Distilled water contains no ions and will not conduct electricity.

... except that Ions and atoms are picked up from everywhere around us. So if water is heavily contaminated for some reason (How did it get that way?) by conducting atoms, it wont matter if it came out of a clean bottle originally. Therefore, It seems like good advice to recommend proper grounding aside from the undesirable effects of current carrying coolant, due to its wide variety of other negative side effects (poor grounds may cause alot of problems in other places besides the cooling system). However, I would never, for example, use a sacrificial anode to compensate for poor grounding.

Giovanhalen

I bought this car at the beginning of the month. It has dexcool in it and I do not know how old it is, so I decided to buy some distilled water and some hyperlube super coolant to replace the dexcool for the summer, since I do plan to run the car at the drag strip now and then. Before winter I will refill the cooling system with premixed dexcool. Before I did this I checked the hyperlube site and found the warning not to use distilled water. It is only going to be for 5 months, still I hate to use the distilled water after them warning not to use it. Don't have any softened water so maybe I will use half tap and half distilled with the hyperlube. I was curious what the voltage would read in the coolant after reading one of Pantera efi's posts, so I checked it and got .003 volts.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

It says in the PDF they recommend exchanging Mg and Ca for Na+ ions, which come with Cl- ions (NaCl table salt). In essence they are saying salt water is better for cooling system components.

First, the ions present will allow electricity to conduct which puts you back to square one, electons exchanging at metallic surfaces causes damage because it re-arranged crystal structure (a solid we consider crystal)

Second, I want you to tell me with a straight face that salt water is better for metal components. I am sure everybody living near the ocean has higher quality metal on their vehicles?

That is an AD, a product, and is backed by superstition, not science. It says compatible with "any coolant (anti freeze)" and yet antifreeze comes with purified water (even 100% must have some water in it) ,perhaps more pure than distilled. I do not think there is any table salt in anti freeze you buy off the shelf. Complete nonsense.

Giovanhalen

It does not say to use saltwater. It says:




There seems to be a perceptual issue with regard to the usage of softened water in cooling systems by auto enthusiasts. Many mistakenly believe that because SALT is added to water softeners, then softened water must contain salt, a substance of course known to be very corrosive. Nothing could be further from the truth! The salt you add to a water softener is NaCl, or sodium chloride.

During the softening process, only the sodium ion is exchanged into the water. Therefore, softened water does NOT contain corrosive salt.

RockinWs6

Well actually it is new to Dexcool, it was designed for use with drinkable tap water use. Coolants before this were not even if the manual said it was ok to use drinkable tap water. The Dexcool can handle it very well compared to anything before it. The intention was to spare customers damages, we all know how well that all worked out!

I for one had a badly damaged engine in a 99 TA from Dexcool when water pump gaskets leaked allowing air into the system. Ate everything to hell, quite a mess. Was very hard to kill off the acids that were in the system.

kingtal0n

iTrader: (1)

In order to send positive ions into water there must be already negative ions to balance those charges. So even if you tell me you are only exchanging positive sodium ions into the water in exchange for other positive ions- what negatively charged species exists in the water currently that is balancing the charge?

If it isn't Chlorine, which is present in tap water as Cl2, which will not break to form an ionic Cl-, then what must it be? You think you are going to send a bunch of sodium ions into your tap water in exchange for Mg or Ca and it won't find a single chlorine atom charged at -1? I do not manufacture drinking water but I can tell you that saline solution for intravenous injection uses NaCl at least. Can you prove that other negatively charged species of atoms are going to be less corrosive to metals without even knowing which ones are present? Is it Nitrate, Sulfate, Flouride? Also we should ask ourselves- what is it about NaCl that makes water seem more corrosive to iron in the first place? You splash a little salt water on some iron, just random metal laying in the yard, and it rusts up really fast without being exposed to an electrical system.

The whole thing is just terribly presented, inaccurate, and non scientific. You don't want any ions in the water, period, because that is what electrons piggy back from to conduct through the water and ruin the metal in your cooling system. The metal itself is not soluble, so pure water will not dissolve anything in there.

Lets look at this another way. Bottled water, drinking water you buy, usually contains salts such as sodium bicarbonate, potassium phosphate, magnesium sulfate, calcium chloride, sodium chloride, magnesium chloride, potassium bicarbonate, usually in an effort to make it taste better and add some "nutritional value". Moving on to tap water and you will find many of the same compounds- and many other things as well, ranging from bacterial cysts to fungus and god knows what else. The point is, all of these waters contain ionic compounds which dissolve in water to form ions which conduct electricity. Yeah, Na atoms are not going to form hard scale (hard water crud) on your engine parts, but they still conduct electricity and promote the "electrolysis" (marine applications apparently frown on the use of that word) associated with electrical systems which may be conductive through cooling lubricants that contain ions. An even bigger question is, lets say for some strange reason you STILL wanted sodium ions in your water instead of Mg and Ca and decided to "soften it up" using a traditional softener method: Where are you going to get your initial base stock of liquid from to soften? Anything you choose- bottled water, drinking water, tap water, well water, it all contains both positive (besides Mg and Ca and Na, there will be others as well) and negative ions such as Cl-, phosphate, sulfate, nitrate, and none of those are desirable in a cooling system since they promote the conductive property of water, nevermind any corrosive or metal altering properties they might posses, especially at higher temperatures. The only base stock of water that doesn't (shouldn't) have any of those things is: distilled water, and similarly purified water types (reverse osmosis does a good job, and other ultra purification techniques exist). And you can't just buy distilled water and pump it full of sodium ions. We would need to dissolve the sodium with a corresponding negatively charged component, it could be Chloride ion, carbonate ion, phosphate ion, sulfate ion, or something you wouldn't want to drink. But then the water would conduct electricity again and you would be back to measuring voltage in the cooling system and complaining about it while it seems to be eating metals in the process. If the liquid looks like a good wire, then it will conduct like a good wire.

pantera_efi

iTrader: (1)

HI OP, MY HAT IS OFF !

Those HERE who provide KNOWLEDGE have Little concern for your measurement.

The measurement of .003 VOLTS provides DATA OF CORRECT Coolant.

Lance

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

Damn when are you ever going quit doing the copy and paste routine without understanding what you are posting. You DO NOT WANT TO USE THE PUREST WATER AVAILABLE PERIOD! Very pure water is also very corrosive, You want water that is neutral or "soft water" That soft water is likely what they use because it cheaper and easier to produce in large volumes. AGAIN PURE WATER= BAD

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

They use demineralized or deionized, at least for GM approved Dexcool labeling on any brand of premixed. As stated earlier, you can read this right on the jugs themselves and/or material data sheets.

pdxmotorhead

Huge difference between Demineralized and Deionised. Deminieralised is filtered to reduce specific minerals like calcium, Deionised is hyper filtered as well and is essentially H2O with nothing else in it. It will rot the hell out of any metal container, I worked with an idiot that ran it through our coffeemaker on night shift, ruined the boiler in a week looked like he'd used Hydrocloric in it.. Drinking DI water can cause serious internal damage according to the MSDS that comes with it.

I think thats what started the whole flail here is the original data they confused DI with Demineralized.

I bought a motor home water filter for filling cooling systems, and mixing Latex paints.. Cost me like 40 bucks and it gives me a nice clean source for batteries cooling and such, Plus I use it for cleaning things and mixing windshield cleaner..

YMMV