koolrayz

iTrader: (26)

We have a different view of the same objective.
"Our" objective is to maintane an even cylinder pressure by insuring a consistant enrichment of nitrous.

Im looking at adding the nitrous as far away as possible from the cylinder. The reason is it will allow the nitrous and regular atmosphere to completely mix. I want say a 2% oxygen enrichment to the standard air. Example would be raising the oxygen content of standard air from 20.9 to 22.9% oxygen.
I think in terms of percentage of enrichment of the oxydizer, which has a direct impact on the amount of fuel that is oxidized. If part of the charge in the cylinder is 21.9% and other parts of the charge is 23.9% do to incomplete mixing then some of the cyl will be lean and there will be unburnt fuel in another part.

If the intake does not flow the intake air evenly with your direct port then you have an uneven enrichment at the cylinder. With my design every CFM entering the engine has an evenly mixed enrichment

The downside is some of the cooling effect is lost do to heat bing absorbed from the engine bay before it makes it into the cylinder.

I would add the fuel in the same manner for the same reason if I could legaly use a fuel that is in gaseous form *cough*propane*cough*

memphisTa

iTrader: (2)

I am not as advanced as you guys but could you run a wet direct port with a wideband on each cylinder? I know it would be costly but wouldn't it give the flexability to adjust timing, and fuel/nitrous jets based off of each cylinders AFR?

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

what we call progressive is no more than chattering the solenoid open... its not slightly opening... therefore its giving you the complete shot that you have jetting but only for a milisecond... this is bad in my eyes.... you need to keep the nitrous flowing with multiple systems or timing retard(both preferable) to "progress" the horsepower.

we did some testing with a twin turbo 358 SBC that had a DP kit on it with NO nitrous or fuel pills that resulted in AMAZING results... if we had more time and money to test it we would have something....

this is another proof that lead me to believe the reason you cant put enough nitrous in a motor with out burning stuff is its backing up in the runners and or puddling and moving to other runners.


we had the NOS "R" solenoids on the DP kit with Cheater fuel noids... we used no pills and used the boost reference on the fuel side of the direct port kit.

This car used to have a 632 on it with 2 foggers and 2 plates. we left the clutch tune up we had in it just for a baseline... it created soo much power it blew through the clutch.... we didnt realize we were eating the clutch cause we would have never thought it would have made that much power that soon... we ended up dropping a valve but not hurting a piston or burning a plug. we finally got to make short run but ended up sucking a diaper strap in a turbo inlet about 200ft out

the problem is not that nitrous cant make enough HP its that we cant get/keep enough nitrous in a cylinder.
thats why these huge nitrous motors are being built more volume to hold more nitrous.

you just cant keep enough nitrous in the cylinder to make as much HP as the forced induction crowd.... it has nothing to do with how you mix it or dont mix it... only so much space fore nitrous to fit in a cylinder of regular atmospheric pressure.


what some promod teams are doing now is finding that they can drop compression and make more power by being able to use more nitrous to make up for the drop in compression. more space=more amount of nitrous to be ingested.

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

this really isnt a huge mystery.... both nitrous and forced induction are allowing more air into the cylinder.

FI is forcing air into a cylinder
nitrous is injecting air into a cylinder

which do you think will make more power.... the one who is cramming more oxygen into the cylinder simple as that.

Super Speed

iTrader: (8)

Nitrous: all of the turbo none of the lag

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

far from it right now....

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

Something interesting we could do is set up a direct injection setup. This is a large image so just click on it:
http://www.magirusdeutz.co.uk/images/DirectXSec.jpg

I think we could tap a head and install a diesel injector in there to directly inject the nitrous. The only thing I was thinking of that could possibly make this difficult besides installing it in the head is controlling it. I'm sure with an aftermarket PCM with the capacity to control 16 injectors you could set something up. I don't really know how you could do it with a stock PCM unless you wired in another stock PCM to control the diesel injectors, but still have all of the input be from the same sensors.

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

if it puddles on the piston at all and is lit it will burn a hole in a piston instantly.... that would be the only thing about direct injection that would scare me... cause it would have to spray quite a bit to fill the cylinder as soon as the valve shut...

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

Random thinking... You'd have to have it be spraying on the intake stroke to pull as much nitrous into the cylinder as possible. I don't know if an injector could spray as much as we're talking in this thread hp wise once the intake valve has closed. Combine that with a cam with a lot of overlap and you'd be sucking nitrous straight out of the exhaust. You'd have to have extremely high atomization in the chamber to promote complete combustion. I know diesels run insane amounts of fuel pressure. I'm not sure how that would translate over to 1050ish psi for nitrous in a gaseous state.

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

for one if we were to have a shot at pressurizing the cylinder the valve events would change to be more like a blower/turbo cam to keep overlap to a minimum... we do this on nitrous motors now like to say to create a little be of a vacuum... with pressure it would like you say... spit it out the other side

greentahoe

iTrader: (2)

I'm a newb to nitrous and was considering using a bit on my build for my current car which will be turbo. I can't help but notice two prevailing although important elements to this thread that go hand in hand.
1. No one really brings supercharged cars into the comparison which leads me to
2. Turbo cars are more efficient for 1 main reason. Efficient turbo cars will actually scaveng e spent exhaust gases to spin the turbine resulting in more boost than pressure coming from the exhaust side.
Everyone seems to be trying to find another way to do what turbos do without using a turbo. Power adders are what they are, but maybe some systems are better for certain goals. Maybe there is a way to scavenge more exhaust from a nitrous system.
Just throwin it out there

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

scavenging a little on each nitrous and turbo is fine for what you just said... atleast the way things are now... nitrous on a turbo car is perfect though because nitrous increases exhaust velocity some what which in turn spins the turny thing faster

Super Speed

iTrader: (8)

How about using NO2 instead of N20
Twice as much oxygen, lol

Although that really wouldn't help with the longevity of the engine..

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

i dont remember much about how certain elements bond but when you completely change the make up of a molecule it takes on different characteristics... although i believe nitrogen and oxygen are 2 of the 8 inert gases so it shouldnt be a lethal combonation but again im not certain any more...

99_Z_155

iTrader: (7)

You guys are kinda above my head here with tons more experience. I dont know if its physically possible, but i always wondered why one couldn't put a nitrous nozzle DIRECTLY into the cylinder, in a port or boss in the head similar to the one used for the spark plug. that would allow much more nitrous volume to be put into the cylinder per compression stroke. an electronic system could be made to make the solenoids-or injectors-pulse (if physically possible) based on the timing of the fuel injectors to make sure the injection happens during compression.

EDIT: Sorry, missed page 4, BEAFLAG and I seem to be on the same page here with direct injection.

ty_ty13

iTrader: (42)

direct injection would probably/maybe work on nitrous but it would not be the only kit on the motor... and it would need a noid above each cylinder to time it where it like you said spray on comp stroke.... i still dont know if that short amount of time you could spray it enough to pressurize it and not burn a hole in the piston with a puddle on top.