JL ws-6

iTrader: (50)

There's got to be a reason, or it's just strait bullshit and they're not doing it.

I'd love to see a set of plugs out of a car that made a full 1/4 pass and clicked the key off at the end of the track, and the tuneup (fuel, timing, jetting, motor setup, car setup, etc and what it's running) on one of these cars that's running 400 hp thru one of those plates. Because I guarintee, that something isn't gonna add up.


If you could just put 400 hp thru that plate and it would work fine, then someone explain to me why the fast nitrous cars all over the world are running 2 or 3 systems, and they're all running DP's.

I can't wait to hear the answer I'm gonna get on this

minytrker

iTrader: (13)

I can gurantee NONE of the people I personally know will show you there plugs, give you there tuneup, timing, jetting, motor setup, and times just because you dont beleive they are doing it. If they wanted people to know all that they would post it. Actually ask any of the fast nitrous guys to do that and i doubt you'll get any takers.

A DP is better at bigger shots, no one is arguring that. But you can spray big shots with a plate. Also everyone i know is using dual stage not single stage plates if that matters. Alot of these guys run 1/8 mile vs 1/4 also.

JL ws-6

iTrader: (50)

Like posting pictures of the plugs is gonna tell you ****, other then how the tuneup is. Keep the jetting to yourself, I could care less. Besides.. IF they were going fast, really fast with an ls car and nitrous I'd probably have heard of it by now.

And believe me, noone's going fast with these plates as the sole source of nitrous. They make a good first stage, and work good for a kid's street car that he wants to play around with, when it comes to a big dog setup, this is not it. Never will be.

Now, if you're talking about a real plate setup on a single plane, like a 2 stage diffuser plate, that is a different animal all together. But spraying 400 thru one of these plates, relying on a charge to get evenly distributed along a foot long intake plenum into runners that are on the front and back of it? Nope, not gonna happen. Physics alone pretty much dictate that.

But, go ahead, spray that 400 hp thru the behind the TB plate. Run the #6 plug too and pump gas, it will be fine

custm2500

iTrader: (11)

I am sure you can run 3-4-5 hundred hp of juice through any plate and make a few passes. Maybe 1, maybe 10, but you will do some damage and blow the motor for sure after not to long. Well he clearly did some damage and blew something on the motor. If you run the motor kinda fat then that will help in the cylinders that are getting all the extra squeeze.

Now I am agreeing with you that it isn't smart, it isn't a good idea, and surely something is going to go bad.... BUT.... some passes on a big shot, through a nozzle or plate, can make a VERY fast car for a few runs.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Justin,
Thanks for sharing. In all honestly there is a chance you may have hurt it when you first zaped all those plugs. Hard to say with out tearing it down at that point. I have seen motors get hurt and not break until later down the road.

I do not want to step on any toes by stating this but this is my opinion on the tune up.
In my opinion 10.5-11 is to rich on the tune up. In all honestly I have never ran a car any richer than 11.5 which is still on the rich side. If the car was making an extra 367 hp on the bottle a number 9 plug would have been a much better choice. There was also to much timming in the car if you were only pulling out 9 degrees from 28 total.

Tune up aside we need to determain why the car boged. Obviously the bog was the reason the car hick uped. There are many factors that come into play that can cause a car to hick up pff the line.

1. Loaded up spark plugs.
2. Not enough fuel supply upon demand. (drop in fuel pressure)
3. Detonation (to much timing, to hot of a plug)
4. Overly rich condition

Those are 4 quick references that are very popular reasons. There can be many reasons why. I understand the car is on a trans break and the system does not arm until you are off the break. In a perfect world that is enough however this is a perfect reason why I preach window switch. Would it have kept this from happening. Im not sure. But there is a huge chance when the car boged the RPM drop would have been below the activation point and the system would not have activated.

At these horse power levels there is not area for mis calculation on the tune up. You will have people swear by a certain airfuel and a certain timing figure. The truth is every engine is different. Myself I believe airfuel is nothing more than a tuning tool. I am a firm believer in starting the tune up off at a certain point. Then I remove timing to see if the car gets faster. If it slows down I go the other way. I do the same with airfuel. I start off at a certain point and then add fuel. If the car gets faster I continue while reading plugs. If the car slows down I go the other way.

The spark plugs can tell you weather or not the plug is cold enough, the timming, as well as how affeciantly it is burning the fuel.

At these Horsepower levels understanding this is very important no matter what system you are using. Horse power is horse power.

When you get this thing back together if I can be of any assistance please let me know.

Dave

JL ws-6

iTrader: (50)

[QUOTE=custm2500;12637830]If you run the motor kinda fat then that will help in the cylinders that are getting all the extra squeeze.
QUOTE]

See that's where you're wrong. The fuel will drop out of the intake charge first since it's heavier and then get sucked by the front cyl's, making the front of the motor alot heavier on fuel then the back, which is why these types fo kits kill #7, #8 and #5, because those are the back runners that get the most of the nitrous.

The front ones, will turn around and be heavy on fuel, get thet fuel in the ringland and then detonate and start lifting the ringlands, then you'll be sucking oil into the cyl's, which will cause a hot-spot type detonation situation and then you'll eat the front cyl's up from that, then the back ones that are running leaner from the majority of the nitrous getting to them are gonna just get melted from the heat.

That's why the plate, any single nozzle, anything relying on the LS type intake is going to have a distirbution problem, no matter what.

Now a single plane, same thing can happen to the corner cyl's because they're longer runners and will have a differnt tuneup then the center cyl's, some of the plates are designed to help combat this, and depending on the intake and the amount of difference in the runner length, you can deal with it, or it can in some cases not be an issue.


This is why, regardless wether you're running a DP wet, dry, combo of both or what have you, is a better deal for large power levels. You can adjust each cyl individually, and if you have an aftermarket computer, you can adjust timing on each cyl individually. Stock computer, you can always pull 1 jet size from a specific cyl, or add one in the fuel dept if need be to get things balanced out.



There's alot of inaccurate info on this site in the nitrous forum... you can believe what you want, but this is the facts. I have nothing to gain or lose by putting true and accurate info on here. I don't sell kits, don't distribute anything, and have no support in the nitrous department at all. I'll run anyone's kit, nos, nx, speedtech, wilson, edlebrock, harris, nitro daves... I don't care it doesn't matter to me.

Flame away if you want.. but if you take what I've stated here, and start asking around with people that haev been racing for years, know ls stuff, hell even if they don't know ls stuff, this is what you'll find.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

JL,
I am not trying to take anything from your experiencees nor what you have done. Please do not take this as me being dis respectful to you.

It is no secret that you will not get every plug to look exactly the same. With a stock pcm that is hard enough to do naturally asperated. I am not claiming every plug will look identical.

What I am saying is that by reading the plugs as you move up in the horse power levels you can locate your problem cylider or cylinders. At this point these are the most critical to base your over all tune up off of.

Watching the plugs the motor will tell you when you are starting to reach a point to where there is a delivery issue. I have seen different engines tell me different things.. For example we have seen motors that had head port work or intake port work that created a turbulant cylinder. On something as little as a 150 hp it was killing plugs in a cylinder. Then on another motor I have hit as much as 300 through the front of the intkae and the plugs were stelling us we were fine..

There is no exact science that works across the board. Like I have stated many many times every application is different. What works for one may not work for the other. There are ways to tell before hurting the motor. Its not a guessing game. Its a knowledge game..

You have to understand our plate system was designed for the racer looking to make big power with out going directport. We have customers that race certain classes that allow them to flow up to a certain jet size using a nozzle or plate but they can not use a directport. Our product was designed for that reason. So yes we advertise our plate systems will support this horse power level for a reason. And they will do it. Anyone playing at this horse power level should have the knowledge to tune there car.

We do educate our customers and we do offer one on one technical advise tunning. For the right amount Ill even go to the track and tune the car.

The average street car enthusiast is not going to spray more than 150-200hp and they know what the stock bottom end wil support. Our products will work very well at these horse power levels. We also educate these people as well.

So with all that been said. Should the turbo and supercharge companies stop advertising that there units will provide X amount of boost, because that is no different. Its up to the consumer to educate them selfs before throwing a blower on the car and pouring the coals to it.

You say you have experience with every plate out there. Well if you have tuned as many nitrous cars as I have with our plate you would change your mind. There is a reason why I am so confident. I dont go off what other people say. I go off what I have done with our products and we put alot of time in R&D for a reason.

We keep an average of 10 intakes at a time on the shelf to be plumbed for a directport. We specialize in this area and our ability is top notch. Trust me I would rather have 25-30 intakes at a time lined up to plumb so its not like I am ever pushing someone away from doing a directport over doing a plate.

Dave

JL ws-6

iTrader: (50)

Dave, I have exp with all the plates, yours, nos, harris and even the cold fusion. None of them distirbute right once you get into the 200+ range... so I can safely say it's a bad idea, even worse for people that can't tell that there's a problem

And yes, I think it's very irresponsible of turbo and supercharger companies to sell kits without 100% disclosure about what is a safe power level witha stock motor, to not have a disclaimer note, or something in the instructions saying a stock motor can reliably take X and anything past this point takes expert tuning.engine building etc.

Sure, the customer has to take responsibility for thier actions and choices, I just do not feel it is right to say you can put X thru this plate and have no problems... there's too many people out there that just don't have enough sense to realize that it's not that simple.

You can plumb the hell out of an intake that's for sure, no denying that.. and I know that every car responds to stuff differently. Problem is, that the kid who wants a nitrous kit and has no clue sees you can put 400 hp thru this plate, buys it and doesn't understand it's not that easy, eats up his car and then wonders what happend... and when someone asks why he did it, he'll say "look the package says it will flow 400 hp of power" See where I'm going with it? Just because it can, doesn't make it a good idea. Thread starter is proof of this I think.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

The question is how many different cars have you tuned with our plate to determain it can not do it?

Customers want to know how much horse power a certain item can supply. All of our systems state that. We have never told someone to throw a plate on something and hit it with 300 or even 400 hp. However there are people on this site trying to make it look like that.

We have always stated a stock bottom end is only good for 150.
We have always stated that anything over 250 would be better off with a directport.

We have always and always will state if you are capable of tuning the car and reading plugs are plate design is capable of supplying as much power as the motor can evenly digest.

Never ever have we told someone that spraying 300 on a plate is easy and for everyone. Plain and simple our product will do it. However the results are at the tuners mercy.

This poor guys results is not an example of what the plate can and can not do.. The tune up is to far off on this car and to be quite honest with you there are to many variables that come into play at this point. I think I lined it out pretty well in my post.

Plain and simple this car hick uped off the line and there was nothing to prevent the system from spraying under a certain rpm. That is why it back fired..
Dave

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Ohh,
We are currently working on a complete revise of all our instructions. If there is not already something in them explaining safe horse power levels I will make sure it is in there..

Thanks for the compliments on the direct ports..
Dave

Ray@Nitrous Outlet

will a moderator or the OP please edit the first post and put a space in between the pics, so I can quit scrolling ten miles to the right to read this thread.....

custm2500

iTrader: (11)

I see what you are saying about the extra fuel.

My point is that the OP could have ran a few runs with such a big shot and had little problems. Obviously the small issues showed there face in a big boom eventualy.

Showing that big shots aren't a good idea out of a plate. Maybe good for a short wile but not long term at all!

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

A little food for thought. U-luze stated the largest nitrous pill he used was a 82 jet.. The nitrous pill is the restriction and regardless of how you look at it there was only an equavalance of 225hp worth of nitrous and fuel flow going into this intake manifold. We have tons of cars spraying 200 and 250 with our plate

Since the discussion is about the amount of flow being able to be safely delivered you have to look at flow and not horsepower made.
I understand the car reacted very well and made 367 horse power but if you were to measure the amount of flow out of the plate into the intake manifold it would not be any greater than all the guys we have spraying 200-250..

There fore u-luze is not spraying 367hp worth of measured flow into the intake manifold like you guys are assuming..

I think this has been over looked. The problem here was the tune up..

Dave

U-Luze

iTrader: (4)

I knew it was rich, i didnt want to take too much fuel from it and cause a lean condition but guess it wouldnt have mattered the inevetable was going to happen anyways. It does have a dual channel digital switch in it. i couldnt never get it to leave outta the hole so i removed it and just used the wot switch for bout a year no issues till now. When i send it back to hke ill have them find out what went on it.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

I know when these things happens it a downer.. I feel for you.. But you know what they say... Knowledge comes with experience. Experience comes with expense. I wish I could say I never made mistakes because it sure would had been alot cheaper if I hadnt.

If I can be of any help feel free to give me a call at the shop.

Dave