WTF - 57rwhp form a 100 wet shot (Dyno chart inside)
03-02-2010, 05:22 PM
#21
im done, i never said anything to this guy about plugs,i told him that he needs to get a bottle heater and a pressure gauge which will probably help him get some of that 100 shot to the tires
he is losing some of that from being too rich but im sure he isnt like the ones mentioned earlier who want every tenth they can get,he probably would rather have a safe setup that isnt pushing the threshhold of kaboom
supermod chimed in saying i told him the wrong plug so i corrected him
he is losing some of that from being too rich but im sure he isnt like the ones mentioned earlier who want every tenth they can get,he probably would rather have a safe setup that isnt pushing the threshhold of kaboom
supermod chimed in saying i told him the wrong plug so i corrected him
But he does need a #7 plug in it, get the pressure right and have a full bottle and try again.
03-02-2010, 05:28 PM
#22
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i ran them for years without any issues,never sprayed over a 200 shot though
03-02-2010, 05:50 PM
#24
I ran them as well, but quickly learned from the more experienced and the older guys ( aka my dad) why the use of a non projected plug is needed in a nitrous application. The tr6's work, but there is a better choice out there so that is what we all recommend now.
Trying to get the tr6 out of the picture to help everybody out.
Trying to get the tr6 out of the picture to help everybody out.
03-02-2010, 07:15 PM
#25
Being rich will lift ring lands also. You are still leaving power on the table. You would want your A/F in the mid 12's. But for the true test forget the wideband and Read Your Plugs. Ask the big boys (ATVracer, BAKED, Shiznity, JL-ws6) and they will tell you to read your plugs.
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EQ Ratio
11.48
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11.48
11.58
11.67
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11.55
11.58
11.61
11.56
11.55
11.59
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11.35
11.31
Man they are going to have a bunch of warranty issues!!!
I tune cars all the time and yes I shoot for 12.8:1 AFR on a naturally aspirated car, but when tuning a Nitrous or Forced Induction car I target 11.8:1 AFR. Yes there is power left on the table, but in order for my customers to get that extra power with leaner AFR's on FI tunes they can not run pump fuel because of detonation issues. They would have to run something like VP116 race fuel, which will kill their NB O2's.
Also for a side note, reading a cars plugs that is not running the PCM in Open Loop only will be of no use (in determining Lean/rich conditions) because the PCM will target/command 14.7:1 AFR(or stoic) any time the car is not at wide open throttle, so the lean condition will burn off any residue left and make the plug look lean. I am sure those guys you mentioned are looking at plugs on a car that has been tuned to run Open loop only while it is being tuned or they are looking for signs of detonation to help determine the timing the car can safely get to. My point here is in the OP situation, reading the plugs will not tell him if he is too rich.
OP, I am sure your situation is caused from the bottle pressure, and a little from the large stall you have. Large stalls will eat up power on the dyno. Speedcrazy, BigDB and Camscam02 are correct in their advice to you. The reason your AFR is 11.3:1 instead of 11.8:1 is because the bottle pressure was down probably due to temp. You will see the power you expect once you have the bottle heater on it correctly. The only other thing from a tuner stand point that could also be causing the power to come down could be if the PCM is seeing a little knock and is in return pulling timing. I am sure your tuner can iron out any issues like that for you.
Good luck and keep us posted.
03-02-2010, 07:39 PM
#26
Dont listen to Texas WS6 its pretty clear he doesnt know much about nitrous.
If you dont know how to get a clean plug much less read one you should stick to turbos.
Rich is not safe, more motors are hurt bing rich than lean. Hell we have yet to hurt one being lean and we run our 400 shot at 13.0 A/F
I would not reccomend for anyone else to do that but its a fact.
For a 100 shot car run the 7 plugs and shoot for low to mid 12's on the A/F ... pull 5-6* of timing.
If you dont know how to get a clean plug much less read one you should stick to turbos.
Rich is not safe, more motors are hurt bing rich than lean. Hell we have yet to hurt one being lean and we run our 400 shot at 13.0 A/F
I would not reccomend for anyone else to do that but its a fact.
For a 100 shot car run the 7 plugs and shoot for low to mid 12's on the A/F ... pull 5-6* of timing.
03-02-2010, 08:00 PM
#27
Thats funny, I have personaly been running nitrous cars since 1988. I have never had issues with nitrous shots up to 500hp. I have been running nitrous on my old Mopars engines, Pontiac engines, and now the LS stuff. Just because I have my turbo car in my sign does not mean I have never had or run anything else. You are very quick to judge me when I gave you credit, yes you are whom was referenced and I in turn gave you credit.
Nevermind me, I am just one of those old racers who has run most everything.
Nevermind me, I am just one of those old racers who has run most everything.
03-02-2010, 08:20 PM
#29
1.I am kind of confused here, if you are saying 11:1 is too rich and can cause the ring lands to lift then someone needs to call the GM engineers and let them know they are programming these cars to command at wide open throttle the following
2. I target 11.8:1 AFR. Yes there is power left on the table, but in order for my customers to get that extra power with leaner AFR's on FI tunes they can not run pump fuel because of detonation issues. They would have to run something like VP116 race fuel, which will kill their NB O2's.
3. Also for a side note, reading a cars plugs that is not running the PCM in Open Loop only will be of no use (in determining Lean/rich conditions) because the PCM will target/command 14.7:1 AFR(or stoic) any time the car is not at wide open throttle, so the lean condition will burn off any residue left and make the plug look lean. I am sure those guys you mentioned are looking at plugs on a car that has been tuned to run Open loop only while it is being tuned or they are looking for signs of detonation to help determine the timing the car can safely get to. My point here is in the OP situation, reading the plugs will not tell him if he is too rich.
Maybe my post was harsh I'll tell you what I dont agree with.
1.If GM is so great why do you retune cars to 12.8 A/F on motor?
Running a car with a stock tune at 11. whatever is different than running a car with nitrous.
2. There are ways to run the A/F leaner on pump gas and not have detonation issues. (plugs, timing)
3. Is my biggest issue.
If you cut the car off before you lift the computer is out of the picture.
Done it for years with stock computers.
The plug is the ONLY thing you can look at that will tell you what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Closed or open loop doesnt matter, you can read plugs and if your spraying nitrous you should look at them to get the tune right, once its right I would just spot check them every now and then.
I am no nitrous guru but I did stay at a holiday in all weekend.
03-02-2010, 08:30 PM
#31
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Maybe my post was harsh I'll tell you what I dont agree with.
1.If GM is so great why do you retune cars to 12.8 A/F on motor?
Running a car with a stock tune at 11. whatever is different than running a car with nitrous.
2. There are ways to run the A/F leaner on pump gas and not have detonation issues. (plugs, timing)
3. Is my biggest issue.
If you cut the car off before you lift the computer is out of the picture.
Done it for years with stock computers.
The plug is the ONLY thing you can look at that will tell you what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Closed or open loop doesnt matter, you can read plugs and if your spraying nitrous you should look at them to get the tune right, once its right I would just spot check them every now and then.
I am no nitrous guru but I did stay at a holiday in all weekend.
1.If GM is so great why do you retune cars to 12.8 A/F on motor?
Running a car with a stock tune at 11. whatever is different than running a car with nitrous.
2. There are ways to run the A/F leaner on pump gas and not have detonation issues. (plugs, timing)
3. Is my biggest issue.
If you cut the car off before you lift the computer is out of the picture.
Done it for years with stock computers.
The plug is the ONLY thing you can look at that will tell you what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Closed or open loop doesnt matter, you can read plugs and if your spraying nitrous you should look at them to get the tune right, once its right I would just spot check them every now and then.
I am no nitrous guru but I did stay at a holiday in all weekend.
2. I usually find that there is more power to be had trough the timing than a measley half a point a/f ratio.
3.Yes you can cut the car off and hope you can role off the track and to a good spot so you can read your plugs and hopefully not have to push your car a mile.Which is not reasonable for most unless you have someone to drag you around.I do agree that checking the plugs is a good idea and is a good way to see what is really going on but on the same token I would not recommend telling a new user of the juice to check his plugs and dont watch the wideband.
03-02-2010, 08:35 PM
#32
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Being rich will lift ring lands also. You are still leaving power on the table. You would want your A/F in the mid 12's. But for the true test forget the wideband and Read Your Plugs. Ask the big boys (ATVracer, BAKED, Shiznity, JL-ws6) and they will tell you to read your plugs.
just incase you didnt see it
03-02-2010, 08:36 PM
#33
1. He didnt say they were great just that that is the way it is.
2. I usually find that there is more power to be had trough the timing than a measley half a point a/f ratio.
3.Yes you can cut the car off and hope you can role off the track and to a good spot so you can read your plugs and hopefully not have to push your car a mile.Which is not reasonable for most unless you have someone to drag you around.I do agree that checking the plugs is a good idea and is a good way to see what is really going on but on the same token I would not recommend telling a new user of the juice to check his plugs and dont watch the wideband.
2. I usually find that there is more power to be had trough the timing than a measley half a point a/f ratio.
3.Yes you can cut the car off and hope you can role off the track and to a good spot so you can read your plugs and hopefully not have to push your car a mile.Which is not reasonable for most unless you have someone to drag you around.I do agree that checking the plugs is a good idea and is a good way to see what is really going on but on the same token I would not recommend telling a new user of the juice to check his plugs and dont watch the wideband.
2. you should not do that timing will hurt the motor WAY before running it to lean will.
3.Its not hard I do it EVERY pass.
I am not saying to not use a wideband we use ours to get us in the ballpark but a single wideband averaging 8 cyls. wont tell you how much hotter #7 runs compared to #2 but thats a whole other subject.
Maybe I'm getting to precise for a guy running a 150 shot but if I was tuning my car on a 150 shot its what I would do.
03-02-2010, 08:43 PM
#34
I'm out. Sorry to the OP for the thread hijack
didn't mean to tear up your thread here.
Get with the guys I mentioned in my previous threads they will point you in the right direction They are not running fast and shooting big shots for no reason.
Good luck with your car. Do your research and find the bset way to tune your car
didn't mean to tear up your thread here. Get with the guys I mentioned in my previous threads they will point you in the right direction They are not running fast and shooting big shots for no reason.
Good luck with your car. Do your research and find the bset way to tune your car
03-02-2010, 08:49 PM
#35
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1. OK
2. you should not do that timing will hurt the motor WAY before running it to lean will.
3.Its not hard I do it EVERY pass.
I am not saying to not use a wideband we use ours to get us in the ballpark but a single wideband averaging 8 cyls. wont tell you how much hotter #7 runs compared to #2 but thats a whole other subject.
Maybe I'm getting to precise for a guy running a 150 shot but if I was tuning my car on a 150 shot its what I would do.
2. you should not do that timing will hurt the motor WAY before running it to lean will.
3.Its not hard I do it EVERY pass.
I am not saying to not use a wideband we use ours to get us in the ballpark but a single wideband averaging 8 cyls. wont tell you how much hotter #7 runs compared to #2 but thats a whole other subject.
Maybe I'm getting to precise for a guy running a 150 shot but if I was tuning my car on a 150 shot its what I would do.
3.At my track the return road is probably 3 times as long as the track and most of us dont have pit crews and golf carts to drag us around.
You didnt say to forget the wideband but it was said.And I agree with the rest of your statement.
And sorry to the OP,IM done.
Last edited by speedcrazy2; 03-02-2010 at 09:00 PM.
03-02-2010, 08:52 PM
#36
Maybe my post was harsh I'll tell you what I dont agree with.
1.If GM is so great why do you retune cars to 12.8 A/F on motor?
Running a car with a stock tune at 11. whatever is different than running a car with nitrous.
2. There are ways to run the A/F leaner on pump gas and not have detonation issues. (plugs, timing)
3. Is my biggest issue.
If you cut the car off before you lift the computer is out of the picture.
Done it for years with stock computers.
The plug is the ONLY thing you can look at that will tell you what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Closed or open loop doesnt matter, you can read plugs and if your spraying nitrous you should look at them to get the tune right, once its right I would just spot check them every now and then.
I am no nitrous guru but I did stay at a holiday in all weekend.
1.If GM is so great why do you retune cars to 12.8 A/F on motor?
Running a car with a stock tune at 11. whatever is different than running a car with nitrous.
2. There are ways to run the A/F leaner on pump gas and not have detonation issues. (plugs, timing)
3. Is my biggest issue.
If you cut the car off before you lift the computer is out of the picture.
Done it for years with stock computers.
The plug is the ONLY thing you can look at that will tell you what is going on in the combustion chamber.
Closed or open loop doesnt matter, you can read plugs and if your spraying nitrous you should look at them to get the tune right, once its right I would just spot check them every now and then.
I am no nitrous guru but I did stay at a holiday in all weekend.
As to #2, you are right there are several things a user can do to run leaner on pump gas.
As to #3, you are correct, if you kill the car at the end of the run you take the PCM switching from Open Loop to Closed Loop out of the question, and the rest of #3 you are correct on.
Now why would you instantly slander me like you did without first quizzing me as to what I stated? I still do not see anything I stated as incorrect, I did not give direction in procedure to read plugs. I only stated exactly what the PCM does and why what it does can erase what the plugs can tell you.
I never once stated or implied you did not know what you are talking about, nor will I, and I am puzzled as to why you are so quick to flame me personally.
03-02-2010, 08:59 PM
#37
2.Im just saying if it comes to me getting another degree or two of timing with a little richer tune I think i would go that route as long as there are no signs of knock and it makes more power.If it doesnt give more power than there is no use in the timing anyway.
3.At my track the return road is probably 3 times as long as the track and most of us dont have pit crews and golf carts to drag us around.
You didnt say to forget the wideband but it was said.And I agree with the rest of your statement.
And sorry to the OP,IM done.
3.At my track the return road is probably 3 times as long as the track and most of us dont have pit crews and golf carts to drag us around.
You didnt say to forget the wideband but it was said.And I agree with the rest of your statement.
And sorry to the OP,IM done.
If you see knock on a stock computer its to late. DO NOT count on knock sensors to tell you the motor is detonating.
3. Put a old plug and spark plug changing tools in the car and pull a plug or 2 at the end of the track. Did that for years before we got a enclosed trailer and a 4 wheeler.
03-02-2010, 09:03 PM
#38
As for #1, my point here is that 11:1 AFR is not going to lift the ring lands as SilverBullet suggests. Running that AFR under nitrous will not do it either, before EFI cars became popular, carbed cars ran nitrous at the tracks all the time with AFR at WOT greater then 11:1 all the time with large shots. I did not state 11:1 would make the most power, but I did state 11.8:1 for a normal 95% of the time user's street/strip car that is running pump fuel is safe to help control detonation while under the shot.
As to #2, you are right there are several things a user can do to run leaner on pump gas.
As to #3, you are correct, if you kill the car at the end of the run you take the PCM switching from Open Loop to Closed Loop out of the question, and the rest of #3 you are correct on.
Now why would you instantly slander me like you did without first quizzing me as to what I stated? I still do not see anything I stated as incorrect, I did not give direction in procedure to read plugs. I only stated exactly what the PCM does and why what it does can erase what the plugs can tell you.
I never once stated or implied you did not know what you are talking about, nor will I, and I am puzzled as to why you are so quick to flame me personally.
As to #2, you are right there are several things a user can do to run leaner on pump gas.
As to #3, you are correct, if you kill the car at the end of the run you take the PCM switching from Open Loop to Closed Loop out of the question, and the rest of #3 you are correct on.
Now why would you instantly slander me like you did without first quizzing me as to what I stated? I still do not see anything I stated as incorrect, I did not give direction in procedure to read plugs. I only stated exactly what the PCM does and why what it does can erase what the plugs can tell you.
I never once stated or implied you did not know what you are talking about, nor will I, and I am puzzled as to why you are so quick to flame me personally.
There are so many newbs that come in here giving bad advice that it gets tuff to keep saying thes ame things sometimes.
Dont take it personal I'm an ******* sometimes.
03-02-2010, 09:06 PM
#39
I have been a member of this forum since 2003 and during this time I have seen allot of changes take place here. I remember the days when people came here looking to flame people and dismiss everyone trying to prove something instead of looking to help people with their LSx questions. I for one was glad to see the forum move away from that and to a more friendly atmosphere were people could ask questions and get all kinds of help without being scared to be criticized for asking or answering. I am sure you did not mean to flame me personally. I would ask everyone here to try and refrain from doing so. The OP will get more positive info if we do this, and the forum will continue to be the best source for LSx info on the web.
03-02-2010, 09:11 PM
#40
Thanks man, I too am an *******, just ask my wife and you will get an ear full. I know what you mean with answering the same question over and over. Now let me be clear on this, I have never know everything, and I have been known to be wrong, so if you ever see me say something that is wrong, please do not hesitate to correct me. All I ask is not to make me look like the idiot that I am