Catalitic decomposition of Nitrous Oxide
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
compression creates heat.and if what they said in science class is true there being 3 forms of any substance solids,licqids and vapor.at what temp does n2o seperate from each other.a higher compression engine make more heat than a lower compression engine.so a seperation would happen quicker in a higher compression engine vs a lower one.if your spark plugs do what you claim then the breake down would happen sonner.would that not benifit a lower compression engine. intake ,compression,power and exaust are what make a engine run .nitrous allows more fuel to be burned creating more power.cylinder temp will affect nitrous and the temp is creted by compression.a/f ratios will raise or lower the temp .a leaner/higher temp make more power because it creates more heat that can lead to detonation.anti seize on plugs wont effect nitrous.
Originally Posted by taqwache
OK lets end this arguement. I tell you what, send me 8 plugs with this coating on them for free. i will go to the dyno and make a couple of runs on the 200 shot with brand new NGK TR6s to get it tuned out (i have to anyways). then i will let it cool off, install your plugs, turn on the laptop to look for KR and make a few more runs. then i will post both graphs up here to show everybody and also show if there is any KR. i dont mind useing my motor for test purposes if it will help with the R@D of the oh mighty LS1 and nitrous use and give everybody on LS1tech some more info about our motors. also i dont think that a plug change could desrtoy it anyways. let me know. if it does work, you will be able to sell enough of these on this board to pay for mine.
thanks, Steve.
thanks, Steve.
my question is.. lets say you do get 30hp more from your 200shot. is that any safer on the motor than running a 230shot? is it the same or is it harder on the motor for some reason? for the money if it is not any safer i would think we can just put in a bigger jet if we want more power.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To mhulslan:
This engine has passed over 12000 miles since we started the catalyst project (not only racing, but cruising around, of course, too) and almost 22000 miles since we installed nitrous. I can judge that there is no excess parts wear, because there is not only no loss of power, but without injection of nitrous it now gives 4 hp more than it showed in the beginning (all in a 100 hp engine
).
Designs that look bad on paper DO kill test pilots. 
To parish8:
Increase of a jet is not unlimited. Once you will have to stop. And why do you want to waste N2O without getting a greater effect from the same amount of it???
This engine has passed over 12000 miles since we started the catalyst project (not only racing, but cruising around, of course, too) and almost 22000 miles since we installed nitrous. I can judge that there is no excess parts wear, because there is not only no loss of power, but without injection of nitrous it now gives 4 hp more than it showed in the beginning (all in a 100 hp engine
).
Remember, designs that look good on paper can kill test pilots.
To parish8:
Increase of a jet is not unlimited. Once you will have to stop. And why do you want to waste N2O without getting a greater effect from the same amount of it???
Originally Posted by VIl
When you are not using catalyst, until your engine reaches 600 C piston has already moved, for example, 15 mm. So if your piston moves for 90 mm, you waste near 16%, driving without n2o. When catalyst is inside the combustion chamber, when your engine reaches 200 C, your piston moves, for example, 5 mm, so you only waste near 5%.
If these plugs make combustion occur so much sooner, i would not want to be the one test them on my engine. Would you blindly add 10 degrees of timing on a 200 shot? Didn't think so.
Originally Posted by VIl
To parish8:
Increase of a jet is not unlimited. Once you will have to stop. And why do you want to waste N2O without getting a greater effect from the same amount of it???
Increase of a jet is not unlimited. Once you will have to stop. And why do you want to waste N2O without getting a greater effect from the same amount of it???
another point is the cost. nitrous isn't real expensive. from what i could tell you said the coating will last only 2000miles? the cost of the extra nitrous vs the cost of the coated plugs might be close to the same.
back to my original question. would a 200shot with the catalist be any harsher on a motor than a ~230shot with no catalist?
i can see the point on timing too. seems like all the catilist does is get it to activate sooner. since the reaction starts sooner does it also end sooner. just shifting the time when it happens? that would seem to do us no good and be just like adding timing.
The Bull
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 2
From: Grand Rapids, MI
I've seen a most of the data that indicates internal combustion engines have an effective limit to ingest nitrous is approximately 100% of the FWHP numbers. But, no one on here has even tried to harness a 600 HP shot on top of their motors yet. Ideally, I've seen some of the pros really target about 40 to 50% of total FWHP numbers for the ideal ratio that doesn't blow the motor sky high. Getting it to hook, that's a different story.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To DERTY:
We have achieved more than 40% on wheels, without any damage to engine... But it is not a limit and now we are working over a project to achieve 50%.
To P Mack & parish8:
There is some certain difference amoung the use of a catalyst and adding timing. When you add timing, first the air+fuel mix starts burning, and then (after reaching some temp) N2O comes into process. When you use a catalyst, the air+fuel+N2O mix starts burning from the very beginning of the process. Yes, the reaction ends sooner, but inside the combustion chamber, not in the exhaust...
We have achieved more than 40% on wheels, without any damage to engine... But it is not a limit and now we are working over a project to achieve 50%.
To P Mack & parish8:
There is some certain difference amoung the use of a catalyst and adding timing. When you add timing, first the air+fuel mix starts burning, and then (after reaching some temp) N2O comes into process. When you use a catalyst, the air+fuel+N2O mix starts burning from the very beginning of the process. Yes, the reaction ends sooner, but inside the combustion chamber, not in the exhaust...
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To parish8:
Now we are talking about a prototype, experimental device. We can`t make (and need not to) eternal spark plugs. Anyway, today our plugs are not so bad. 2000 miles it's a distance when catalyzer becomes covered by tars and depositions as a products of fuel burning. Naturally, such dirty (not DERTY) catalyzer can`t work normally. It only needs cleaning and washing, to unclose the catalytic agent. How much it will cost?
The catalyst will not harm the engine. After some setups, a 200 shot can give up to 260 hp.
Now we are talking about a prototype, experimental device. We can`t make (and need not to) eternal spark plugs. Anyway, today our plugs are not so bad. 2000 miles it's a distance when catalyzer becomes covered by tars and depositions as a products of fuel burning. Naturally, such dirty (not DERTY) catalyzer can`t work normally. It only needs cleaning and washing, to unclose the catalytic agent. How much it will cost?
The catalyst will not harm the engine. After some setups, a 200 shot can give up to 260 hp.
LS1 Tech Stories
The Best V8 Stories One Small Block at Time
Topdon ONE vs. Artidiag 800 BT2: Which is the Diagnostic Tablet For You?
Pouria Savadkouei
Gas Monkey Built a 6-Wheel Ferrari Testarossa With a Corvette LT4 Engine
Verdad Gallardo
7 Most Reliable High-Performance Engines GM Has Ever Built
Verdad Gallardo
Amazing '71 Camaro Restomod Is Modern Muscle Car Under the Skin
Verdad Gallardo
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Pouria Savadkouei
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Verdad Gallardo
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Pouria Savadkouei
Top 10 Most Powerful Chevy Trucks Ever Made!
Hennessey's New Supercharged Silverado ZR2 Has 700 HP
Verdad Gallardo The Bull
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 2
From: Grand Rapids, MI
Originally Posted by VIl
To DERTY:
We have achieved more than 40% on wheels, without any damage to engine... But it is not a limit and now we are working over a project to achieve 50%.
We have achieved more than 40% on wheels, without any damage to engine... But it is not a limit and now we are working over a project to achieve 50%.
Someone just needs to figure out how to hook up about 100% and see what happens at this point. 
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To DERTY:
If I had enough money, I could reach 70%, but 100% - I have to be more rich than uncle Bill from Microsoft.
My 48% are made by only one jet (approx 20g of nitous per second) and N2O is injected in vapor form, with catalyzer, of course. If I use direct port into cylinders, the result would be much higher. I guess I`m the only one who injects vapor nitrous.
If I had enough money, I could reach 70%, but 100% - I have to be more rich than uncle Bill from Microsoft.
My 48% are made by only one jet (approx 20g of nitous per second) and N2O is injected in vapor form, with catalyzer, of course. If I use direct port into cylinders, the result would be much higher. I guess I`m the only one who injects vapor nitrous.
Last edited by VIl; Jun 29, 2004 at 08:08 AM.
It would appear to me the main benifit would be the fact that to seperate (break the coveylent bond)(decompose) the oxygen and nitrogen molecules requires energy thats absorbed(this is an endothermic reaction) in the form of heat during normal nitrous use. By using the catalist to break the coveylent bond it now becomes an exothermic reaction. So instead of absorbing energy it releases energy. I think the fact that the separation takes place early is a byproduct not a real benefit as others have pointed out you could just add timing to achieve the same outcome.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,298
Likes: 0
From: So Cal, CA
What have we all determined by all this discussion????
1) That the increase in catalysation would create more horsepower, and would effectly add more oxygen to the combustion process. Which would mean you would run a larger fuel jet with the same nitrous jet and make more power, in order to keep the a/f at the desired level?
2) That maybe these plugs should be more of a race use application, like putting them in at the track for max nitrous use, not a everyday plug. Which is fine for me
3) That in fact it doesnt corrode anything in the brief amount of time (10-14 seconds)
4) I will pay the freight on the spark plugs. If you can private message me and let me know. I have a 900-1000 horsepower 408/spray car to test this setup on my dynojet 248 at my shop i manage. If you will coat a set of TR6 NGK's for me. I will test them with approx 300-400hp direct port setup and will have before/after A/F changes and horsepower effects. As well as jet map size and approx HP gain etc.
1) That the increase in catalysation would create more horsepower, and would effectly add more oxygen to the combustion process. Which would mean you would run a larger fuel jet with the same nitrous jet and make more power, in order to keep the a/f at the desired level?
2) That maybe these plugs should be more of a race use application, like putting them in at the track for max nitrous use, not a everyday plug. Which is fine for me
3) That in fact it doesnt corrode anything in the brief amount of time (10-14 seconds)
4) I will pay the freight on the spark plugs. If you can private message me and let me know. I have a 900-1000 horsepower 408/spray car to test this setup on my dynojet 248 at my shop i manage. If you will coat a set of TR6 NGK's for me. I will test them with approx 300-400hp direct port setup and will have before/after A/F changes and horsepower effects. As well as jet map size and approx HP gain etc.
The Bull
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 2
From: Grand Rapids, MI
I'd suggest getting a set of TR6's, 7's and 8's coated and shipped together. It would be good to note the differences in the heat ranges of the plugs in conjunction with the tests. Especially with the effects of timing, race gas and the catalyst. Who knows what could happen. It's probably way cheaper in the long run to just ship a few of them.
10 Second Club
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,884
Likes: 4
From: H-town
Originally Posted by C4VetteLS1
4) I will pay the freight on the spark plugs. If you can private message me and let me know. I have a 900-1000 horsepower 408/spray car to test this setup on my dynojet 248 at my shop i manage. If you will coat a set of TR6 NGK's for me. I will test them with approx 300-400hp direct port setup and will have before/after A/F changes and horsepower effects. As well as jet map size and approx HP gain etc.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To koolrayz:
N2O = N2 + O + Energy
It's an exotermic reaction with energy barrier. Catalyzer reduces this barrier only. By the way, it is a one of the factors to increase the power of engine. Products of decomposition speed up this reaction. So we need just to start this process.
(If I understand "timing" is ignition?)
No! Never! You couldn't add timing at least by 2 reasons:
1) when you add nitrous to mix of fuel and air and it starts working the fuel begins burning in air just so as without nitrous.
2) unfortunately, adding nitrous oxide to fuel and air reduces octan number of the mixture. So you need to reduce timing (add timing with "-" sign) to prevent detonation, but it leads to a loss of power. So here is a necessety of use more octane fuel or/and one of the chemicals names "octane booster" or "octane corrector"...
P.S. At least once I've seen the engine begin turn to another side after start cause such early ignition was set. Engine was stopped immediatly and car owner said that it's common practice with his engine after deep tuning.
N2O = N2 + O + Energy
It's an exotermic reaction with energy barrier. Catalyzer reduces this barrier only. By the way, it is a one of the factors to increase the power of engine. Products of decomposition speed up this reaction. So we need just to start this process.
...you could just add timing to achieve the same outcome.
No! Never! You couldn't add timing at least by 2 reasons:
1) when you add nitrous to mix of fuel and air and it starts working the fuel begins burning in air just so as without nitrous.
2) unfortunately, adding nitrous oxide to fuel and air reduces octan number of the mixture. So you need to reduce timing (add timing with "-" sign) to prevent detonation, but it leads to a loss of power. So here is a necessety of use more octane fuel or/and one of the chemicals names "octane booster" or "octane corrector"...
P.S. At least once I've seen the engine begin turn to another side after start cause such early ignition was set. Engine was stopped immediatly and car owner said that it's common practice with his engine after deep tuning.
Last edited by VIl; Jul 2, 2004 at 06:50 AM.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
I will pay the freight on the spark plugs. If you can private message me and let me know. I have a 900-1000 horsepower 408/spray car to test this setup on my dynojet 248 at my shop i manage. If you will coat a set of TR6 NGK's for me. I will test them with approx 300-400hp direct port setup and will have before/after A/F changes and horsepower effects. As well as jet map size and approx HP gain etc.
Now I want to discuss my last experience at racing weekend. We coated set of BRISK LGS plugs (most popular here, I think the best plugs for turning engines today). The client`s engine had inhuman temperature inside the combustion chamber. Result of weekend experiment you can see on attached photos. The electrodes were damaged from a high heat. Have you ever seen such pictures?
His engine chars: 1.6l, 16v, max 8000rpm.
power: 153hp at 7200rpm torque: 150nm at 5400rpm (n/a)
215hp at 6900rpm torque: 185nm at 5000rpm (with nitrous system)
Now we take steps to maintain and save the catalytic agent, trying to dispose it more close to the motor case. The following experiments are going to show whether it is possible to prolonger the plugs` life? Still working...
Last edited by VIl; Jun 30, 2004 at 01:02 AM.
On The Tree
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Question:
Spark plugs are designed to remove heat from the combustion chamber. What affect does the catalyst coating have on a plug's ability to disipate this heat and thus help prevent pre-ignition?
I would be wary of taking a catalytic plug and not only increase cylinder pressure, but also increase the heat in the combustion chamber and increase my chances of pre-ignition.
Spark plugs are designed to remove heat from the combustion chamber. What affect does the catalyst coating have on a plug's ability to disipate this heat and thus help prevent pre-ignition?
I would be wary of taking a catalytic plug and not only increase cylinder pressure, but also increase the heat in the combustion chamber and increase my chances of pre-ignition.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 45
Likes: 1
From: Moscow, Russia
To Draco:
The coating does not evidently reduce the heat taking of plug. Honestly, we didn`t make a test to check this, but no pre-ignition was spotted even on engines with high temp and pressure.
The coating does not evidently reduce the heat taking of plug. Honestly, we didn`t make a test to check this, but no pre-ignition was spotted even on engines with high temp and pressure.
Originally Posted by taqwache
is it me, or is the thread going in circles.