gollum

iTrader: (1)

So rain water is collected at cruise only, under 3000 there is not enough intake velocity to ingest water up through intake tract. Unless you are using the LS2 intake.

I get it now, the LS1/LS6 is perfectly safe as long as you spray at high RPM's(3000-7000). NO DUH!

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Why don't all LS1 kits come with window switches? Qustions, Questions, Questions

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

I think (or hope) you meant to say slightly BELOW ambient pressure at WOT. The higher pressure is in comparison to the pressure at idle and cruise, and also in relation to the pressure as measured in the neck of the intake and TB.
The velocity slows in the plenum, and that's one thing that encourages the fuel to drop out of suspension. Get rid of the large plenum area and you get rid of most of the problem with a wet-flow system.

Good save on pulling the "atomized" definition out of the hat. The fuel is still in droplets and subject to falling out and wetting.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

correct...slighty below...good eye.

But the thing i just dont get..and where this entire arguement comes to a screeching halt is that the entire intake is FULL of atomized fuel in suspension along with vapor and its is READILY available to ignite when spraying a wet shot. Wether a little bit pools in the bottom of the intake or not really doesnt matter. As NXRicky and others have said...the real question is what ignites the fuel and what are the conditions that encourage this to happen.

I think I have read before where you said the fuel dropping out of suspension is causing a lean condition in the cylinder. I could possibly buy that as a problem except that most kits with a healthy dose of nitrous are tuned on the dyno. Why would there be no indication of a lean condition as measured on the wideband?

There is alot of small conditions that i could see "adding up" to having a particular setup being more prone to nitrous backfire. But I just dont see any one thing to point at and say...HEY...THATS IT! DONT DO THAT AND YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A PROBLEM AGAIN..lol. I think misuse and incorrect setup is the #1 cause. Malfunction of components is probably #2.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Amen !

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

I'm not sure if I said anything about puddling causing a lean condition, but there certainly is variance in distribution which can leave a cylinder(s) leaner than others. Most companies over fuel to cover this. G forces during a run will tend to pull fuel to the rear and that includes whatever liquid is on the plenum floor. Chances are for a rear cylinder(s) to go rich or possibly extremely rich if the runner pulls up liquid fuel from the plenum floor or even an excess of the vapor. Extreme rich can and does cause backfires in a wet-flow system as people experienced with carburetors already know.
Other things can trigger a backfire as well. Things like lifter pump-up, lifter collapse, loose rocker, broken valvespring, fouled sparkplug, reversion from cam overlap, too much or too little spark advance, a lean pop, etc...
I never said the plenum fills with liquid fuel, just that fuel drops out to the floor and wets the intake walls, and eventually this causes and over-rich condition. This is why the engine can die at the end of the run, and also a condition that can cause a backfire. If you can imagine, an engine running rich enough to kill operation can also cause a rich misfire and/or foul a plug.
When you let off the throttle the pressure in the plenum drops dramatically and will tend to try to pull the flame of combustion back up the intake runner if the opportunity presents itself.
With a dry system this is just fine, but...

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Now thats more like it. I appreciate the more in depth replies. I like the point about the G forces having an effect. However on the LS1 engines its usually the rear cyclinders that detonate due to lean conditions so the G Forces forcing fuel to the back is not a common occurance on LS1s. I have only witnesses 1 nitrous backfire on an LS1 and it was on a dyno..so there where no G Forces in this particular scenario. It was related to some other issue.

I do agree whit alot of what yopu have to say. The thing I disagree with is it seems you tend to oversimplify the backfire issue. As you stated above in your examples...there are lots of reason. You can compound your likelyhood by stacking those reasons ontop of each other until the conditions are ripe. But again...I will go back to my statement that the #1 cause for backfires is misuse and incoreect setup followed by component failure.

So I just dont see why the need to attempt to refute NXRicky and his POV when this entire issue is very complex, dynamic, and varies from application to application. Stay within the recomended parameters such as those expressed by NX and other manufacturers and there will be no problem.

gollum

iTrader: (1)

A picture of LS2 intake.

NXRICKY

iTrader: (1)

NO No you took the statement all wrong, there are people in this world that think a wet kit can not work. Actually that term wet is misleading, see since you are adding a liquid fuel to the mix people started call them wet kits. Now since nos use to top dog on the blog and the did not have a single nozzle wet kit, they start this bogus rumor that wet kits puddle they must since its wet and liquid puddles right. Incorrect. The liquid fuel is totaly atomized its no longer in a liquid form that would collect or puddle. Yet some people out there will always say it puddles it puddle that blew that intake up, just becuase they do not know any better... I thought your question or comment was a good one and if GM update there product to stop water from collecting in the throttle body great, they probably had a problem with condensation in cooler weather..... So my comment was directed not at you.
Sorry for the confusion.
Ricky

gollum

iTrader: (1)

Cool !

NXRICKY

iTrader: (1)

"Gotcha", Got what a head ache, I never ever in the time of being on this board and others have I ever said that the mixture inside the intake was not flamable. You see here we are again someone question what I type and missleading people into thinking I said something that I did not. Everyone who knows me and reads my post knows if I am wrong I will admit to it, and in fact ask other to correct if I am. And you telling or recommending to someone to start a fire and see what happens trust me it will not be a small puff if you do this, it will be very very bad and a big bang going off.

Ok lets see air and fuel cause a fire? NO SH-T Serlock....
If you are sure fuel doesn't collect in the plenum, then where does the required energy come from that rips the intake apart?
Why do some people's engines die at the end of a nitrous run when they let off the gas?
May I hear your best answers to those questions without name calling?


Fuel does not collect the fire ball sure its there because you have a flamable mixture there that is all.
and you ever thing that some people cars are just tuned incorrectly. If fuel puddleing causes the engine to die after a run everyones cars would be dieing.

My question to you, were does the ignition to lite said fuel comes from.. It does not just self light has no reason to if its just hanging around. How about this one, an old carb. truck with a poor tune and the float is stuck open the car run rich as hell smokes black out the exhaust but does not back fire why. surely its puddleing and puddle causes back fire is what you are try to say...

"Atomized is not a correct description of fuel droplets. In fact fuel itself, even as a molecule is composed of many atoms."
So is everything else in this world, atomized is referring to the droplet being so small its vapor.
This discussion is old
Ricky

NXRICKY

iTrader: (1)

So now we have someone say fuel will self ignite if its too rich. But wait you said it was puddleing, that means a liquid, and we all know that liquid does not burn.... I think my point in the being of air velocity stands. Most back fires do not happen in the upper rpm band, they happen down low when the happen which is not that often. I have mentioned in the past the when and if it happens it like the world is coming to an end and a very power thing to witness.
Ricky

gollum

iTrader: (1)

The LS2 intake will be an expensive conversion for my 2002 Camaro. I will need 90mm throttle body, 8 new different size injecters to fit LS2 intake, 8 new injecter wiring harnesses ($36.00 each) that I will have to splice in, so on, so on. Although I can get a brand new LS2 intake for $270.00 it will require too much effort and expense for me to deal with.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

Thank you for supporting my opinions. You admit that the wet kit puts a flammable mixture in the intake manifold and that is what fuels the big explosions.

Of course it doesn't self ignite, the flame starts from the chamber and moves up the intake port when the intake valve is open. Many things can cause this including a misfire possibly caused by running too rich, too lean, or another reason such as a hot-spot in the chamber, plug, or the exhaust valve itself.

In your truck example, yes a stuck float and flooding carb can and often causes backfires back up the intake port due to misfires. I've seen this happen so many times that I just hope you don't even try to claim it doesn't. That will just show your inexperience with the subject.
Yes that is exactly what I'm trying to say... the puddling does cause backfires in carbureted engines and therefor can and will with a wet nitrous system. It is fact, not even questionable. It happens far too often. Every case is different and yes it's possible your truck didn't backfire, but that does not prove your case at all since many others do backfire under the same conditions.

A droplet is not a vapor by the way.

You just wrapped my argument up for me, so thanks again.
I'm sure your argument is getting old from trying so darn hard to defend it.
Sorry, but this time you're wrong.

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Sorry your thread took a bad turn..

Everyone I have talked to that went to the LS2 says that it was not worth it.If you have a LS6 I suggest staying with it.If you want to upgrad save up and get the Fast intake.
Dave

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Ricky,
There is no reason to try to explain anything in this thread.This guy is going to take anything you say and twist it into something else.He is here to start a arguement.
Move on.....
Dave

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

You are also wrong. I'm trying to get valid facts through the clouds of bias.

NicD

iTrader: (7)

another for the ignore list

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Maybe I can get on the ignore list also. The fact is that puddling and backfires do/can happen. Does this happen often, no. Does this this usually happen from end user misuse, yes. Do we see intakes removed from a dry explosion, no. Does Robert have a collection of about six videos of wet backfires, yes (collection just started a couple months ago in response to denials of puddling/backfires. Has Robert been able to find one instance that this happened to a dry kit, no. Is this a thread about wet vs dry, no. Is this a thread about facts, yes.

Here's my take on the issue. The ls1/ls6 manifold was designed to fit under a low profile hood. In order to do the this the plenum was put under the runners and flow tested by gm engineers for dry/air to get maximum VE, with no consideration to n2o or fuel passing through. Now what happens when we get our atomized fuel and n2o mix flowing through the intake track, because it has to go up and over the runners then down again, from the plenum (remember it's under the runners) we get a catch can effect and a certain amount of fuel collects in the plenum (call it puddling or fuel dropping?). Now we know liquid fuel dosent ignite, but if you have a ignition source in the manifold ( can be for various reasons)and allready atomized fuel, the puddled/collected fuel is addtion to the explosions we see that will break the manifold apart and do serious damage to the hood. There are two reasons that the ls1/ls6 have such bad explosions, compared to old school swoooosh backfires on carburated cars, that cause no damage. The intake track is so long and islolated that the explosion doesn't have anywhere to go quickly and with the added fuel lying around, boooom. Now am I saying that if you follow the manufactures guidelines you'll have a bacfire/explosion, no. They are few and far apart, but do in reality exist. Now this is not to argue with anyone or to disprove someone eles ides, but to put the facts out how I see them. Nitrous today, wet or dry, is safer than it ever has been. Should have been around in the seentys when things were first getting sorted out, lots and lots of motors bit froma trial and error process. No proof reading so sorry about spelling.
Robert

Z06PSI

iTrader: (33)

Wrong on this..... I have a LS2 setup... 90mm TB yes.. 400.00 Nick Williams and the only other thing is new injector orings... I think 9.00 from SDPC..