I still have not seen any proof of back to back testing that brand X will make more TQ over brand Y.

Since HP IS Tq x rpm / 5252 then if a kit makes more TQ than it MUST make more HP.


So if we say that two kits jetted the same make the same HP peak but brand X makes more tq then there has to be a reason why brand X is making more TQ in the lower rpm but losing its advantage at higher rpm. because if they both end up at the same peak HP at the same rpm...they are making the same TQ.

Until I see back to back testing with flowed nozzles on the same motor I think they are all the same...or atleast the difference is negligable. Im not saying its not possible. But I have never witnessed evidence of this. I personally think the TNT kit gets the rep for big TQ due to its substantial over rating of thier jetting. You might spray an NX kit 100 shot at 3000 rpm and end up with 525 rwtq on a typical bolt on/cammed ls1.
If you spray a TNT shot of a 100 (130+ actual) at 3000 rpm your TQ gain will be substantially greater at a much greater proportion to HP gains. You might see 600 rwtq in that way.

I invite anyone to show me a valid test. Or feel free to conduct your own test. It wouldnt be hard to do. Just need to flow the fuel and nitrous seperately so they flow the same through each respective nozzle (regardless of jet size) and then spray away. Must use accurate nitrous pressure gauge to ensure exact bottle pressure at start of spraying. Also need a VERY accurate scale to wheigh the N20 bottle. Prefferably pressurise the Nitrous bottle with a regulated nitrogen setup. It would probably take a day to do this test.

 

There was a thread on this a while back. You haven't notice, that what ever hp a TNT is posting it's torque percentage to hp is higher than all other kits. I have been watching it for some time. Ratio of n2o to fuel and the bottle pressure the kit was designed to run at plays a roll, and thus nozzles designed for this combination? Your math doesn't stand the test, how does it fit for cars that make more hp than torque? compared to cars that make much more torque than hp. Like a n/a car that makes 480rwhp and 420 torque, then a n2o that makes 480rwhp and 505 torque. It must be out of context and not an absolute, or we are missing some of the math/explanation. Now I may be wrong here, as Al is normaly correct with his tech, but just trying to understand if I am off base? remeber we are talking peak numbers and not rpm based numbers.
Robert

 

thats sort of my point. Think of the entire rpm range of a typical dyno....if thier TQ increase is greater down low at the activation point than a kit that ends up with comparable HP #s...either the TNT kit is flowing more down low or the other kit is flowing more in the high rpm than compared to its activation point. Because if the TQ is greater down low at the activation points...but HP up high is similair then that means TQ up high is similair as well. So where did the nozzle design advantage go? Or does the TNT nozzle design only benifit when the engine is al low rpm?

It just doesnt make sense to me.

 

For instance....if the TNT kit comes on at 3000 rpm and makes 700 ft/lbs at 3200 rpm for a peak TQ figure...then tapers off to 450 ft/lbs at 5500 rpm for the peak HP of 472 @ 5500

And compare that to a kit jetted for the same HP peak of ~472 at 5500. The TQ at 5500 obviosuly is exactly the same as the TNT kit. But what many say here is that the TQ of this kit should be lower than a TNT kit at activation down low....say 640 rwtq at 3200 rpm.

So if what everyone is saying is true...then either the TNT has some type of advantage at lower rpm...or looses some advantage at higher rpm since it would NOT appear that it has a TQ advantage throughout the entire rpm range.

There are some possibilities...but I think most of this comes from the same skewed perception from over rating the kits. What the TQ gain % of a true 100 shot gain at 3000 rpm vs the TQ gaine % of an actual 130 shot at 3000 rpm. it would be a substantial difference. Even though both are "100" shots.

But again...the only real way to know would be back to back testing under controlled curcumstances. I would like to see it myself.

 

to make a fair comparison you have to use the same bottle pressure because that changes nitrous flow. In fact both kits should be flow tested at the nozzle. Maybe the valve at the bottle, or the nozzle, or feed line, the solenoid-something or other could be causing a difference in flow.


simply put, both kits pushing the same CFM of nitrous and fuel should make the same power. if not, then i would be surprised.

 

This is exactly my point. Both companys can reach the same hp but by different means. they engineer differntly, your saying make a chevy and a ford the same then compare, this logic just dosen't work. From my past research, NX uses approx 1.88 ratio of fuel to n2o, and TnT uses approx a 1.86 (I use 1.87 ). If I remeber correctly TnT uses a 900psi bottle pressure, and NX uses 1050psi. Also, nozzle designs are claimed different (atomization of fuel for different VE). Now put the pieces of each companys puzzle together and I see a different means to reach an attemped same goal. I believe one is more efficent than the other, and ultimate VE is the outcome.
Robert

edit: Try this; known n2o jet size / ratio = fuel jet (however, I think NX has changed their ratio from when I originaly did this).

 

Here is another example. Jet a wet kit to 100rwhp gain, then look at the torque. Then jet a dry 100rwhp and look at the torque. Normaly the wet will have a slightly higher torque output. I think the introduction of the added fuel at the nozzle has better atomization compared to the injector. I suspect this because of the pressure of the nitrous and the nozzle design are more efficent with the same fuel. Speculation at this point, but something is going on concerning the wet vs dry torque. However, my point being is relative torque seems to be once again scewed for hp to hp in different kits.
Robert

Edit: Here's something to think about using the above example. Jet a dry kit to match a wet kits torque, and then the dry kit will in fact be putting out a higher hp?

 

Robert..i can understand to an extent what you mean about the Ford vs Chevy analogy. BUT AT THE LEAST..the bottle pressure should be the same. That changes a lot.

And what a surprise..the NX runs a higher bottle pressure.

 

Thats a better way to put it.
We have a stock LS1 that puts out 300 rwhp. We hook up two kits a wet and a dry and each net a 100 hp gain for a total of 400 hp. The peak HP # should be roughly the same rpm. So if the HP is the same at equal rpm...the TQ # is the same as well at that rpm.

Anyways..I was just searching for some examples of huge TQ TNT kits or low TQ dry kits or NX kits or anything in between. I havent seen any trend yet. I have founds some stout dry kits with huge TQ numbers, some posts with low output wet kit #s and everything in between. Maybe we should make a post for everyone to post thier latest dyno graphs with thier info so we can correlate some info to see if there is a definate trend between TNT vs other wet kits and even dry VS wet.

 

Bottle pressure has some engineering involved and does act differently at higher pressures. TNT 900, NOS 950, NX 1050. I run mine at 1150 and since it is a dry hit, it's the same as increasing the jet size (but remember the nitrous acts different at diff press). You have to look at it at a full engineering view point to see the reasons for diff pressures. I believe IIRC that the higher the pressure the closer you get to spewing liquid nitrous?
Robert

 

Maybe it's as simple as the overall tune. I was going to post a while back some out put numbers from a top wet kit that were less than stellar, and compare them to my lowly dry which was putting out quite a bit more. I didn't do this as an argument was surely to follow. but what i did see was the wet was tuned to rich and to much timing was pulled. So, in conclusion, there is no set rule, but rather total volumetric efficiancy by way of tune. We should start keeping track and see if some of this is more or less fact/fiction.
Robert

 

NX does NOT run a higher bottle pressure...TNT recommends 1000-1050 as well....

 

Actually the higher the pressure, (somewhere right around 1050 psi ), you reach the supercritical point of nitrous...At which no matter WHAT temp the nitrous bottle, a state of liquid or gas no longer exists. This is called the supercritical point....Im not sure what this does to Nitrous performance it may actually be desired because you no longer have to worry about the N2O in two states in the bottle.

 

Sorry man, but no we do not.. TNT reccomend's 900psi, but most will take it up higher if necessary.. Thanks David@TNT

 

I was just about to point this out. If I remember correctly the supercritical point of nitrous oxide is approximately 1037psia, so that is about 1051psi on the gauge. Once it reaches this point, theroetically you should not be able to make any more power by raising the pressure above this point. However, as some of us have probably seen, this ideaology doesn't hold true. I have seen guys make more hp, less hp, and have hp stay the same while running pressure above 1051psig.

I personally don't think bottle pressure makes as big a difference as people think. There have been dyno tests that show only a 1hp difference using bottle pressures that cover a 150psi range. But that was on one vehicle, so take that info with a grain of salt.

There has been some good info thrown out there in this thread by everyone, and without it turning into a pissing contest . I personally am thinking along the lines of Al, hp and tq are part of a simple mathematic equation. At any given point two vehicles make identical hp should make the same tq at that point. I think the part where all of the debate comes from is that often times people aren't pointing out at which point they are getting their tq number from (peak tq gain or avg. tq gain). There has to be some reason why the TNT system makes a lot of torque, but again, are we talking peak or overall tq numbers?

The TNT system is a nice one and it will definately make the power, but saying that brand X makes more power with 100hp shot than brand y at a 100hp is rediculous. A 100hp is 100hp is 100hp regardless of what nozzle, jets, solenoids, or bottle valve you are using. If the system is making more, or less, hp than you are not running a 100hp shot, period. And I guess this is the point at which the TNT guys say that their system makes more tq and want an explanation for that. Well, it obviously is making more tq because it is also making more power for the same "labeled" hp setting. It all goes back to mathematics, if two systems were actually making 100hp to the rear wheels(regardless of what they are "labeled" to be making), then they should make the same tq at a given point. However, this cannot be confirmed since there has yet to be any testing done with any two nitrous systems that are making the same actual hp to the rear wheels (not "labeled" hp).

Choose what fancy's you and run what you brung.

 

One clarification on bottle pressure. On wet kits we should stick to the manufactures jetting table as base starting point at their pressure. If you start playing with nitrous pressure without a WB you may go lean or rich depending on raising or lowering said pressure.
I still believe there are many factors that need to be taken into consideration when comparing two cars making same rwhp and different torque numbers.
Robert

 

Interesting I could have SWORN James peronally told me 1000psi, this was years ago when TNT was a baby, thanks for the info.

 

If you are talking peak horsepower numbers then yes the two kits could realistically be different depending on what rpm they make that peak horsepower. Peak horsepower means squat. If you compare avg horsepower across two setups racing rpm band (which is all that matters), if the avg horsepower is the same across that same rpm band the avg torque will be the same. It is mathmatically impossible for it not to be.

 

I think NX's recommended psi is a good one, because it does put the N2O in the supercritical state in the bottle, a single phase from the top of the bottle to the bottom, neither a gas nor a liquid exists. However, nitrous flow to the engine will STILL affect the amount of horsepower made. That being said a higher pressure should still push more flow through the same size orfice(jet) and create more power. However, there is a ton of variables that exist before the nitrous ever reaches the jet....line size....varying filter sizes....installation and bends of feed line etc...

Thats why we tune the kits after buying to a setup, no matter the make.

Good info peeps....

 

I mostly agree with you on this. Ricky and I were discussing this same thing earlier this morning. Jet design plays a pretty important role in nitrous flow. You could take a jet of the same size from NX, TNT, and NOS and with every other part before and after the jet being the same they will all flow a different amount.

This leads to a pretty big problem when comparing nitrous systems. Some people say that to compare nitrous systems everything would have to be the same, but this wouldn't compare the EFFICIENCY of the design of the parts invovled in each company's system. If everything is the same then you are just comparing two of the same system. I think it could potentially be very dangerous trying to compare nitrous systems by using a single set of jets for all systems involved.

My point is that we run a higher pressure that goes hand in hand with the design of all of our parts, just as TNT uses 900psi because of their design. I would venture to say that it is almost impossible to compare two different systems and get viable results that could be used in a comparison.