redbullapril23

now this is where it seems direct port would be necessary!
that way with more nossles the less youd have to worry about the restriction at each individual nossle.. but at that point you would need a high pressure/volume pump. i def wanna give this a try after a get a forged engine with a very stout tranny. im going to buy the FJO controller first.

if it was me id start with 2.5 to 3 times the amount of meth than gas to start with and only like a 75 shot.
id meassure AFR vs power never going over 12.6 AFR.
then when i found a good ratio id change jets in that ratio and go up to 100 shot see if its the same then to 125 shot and so forth until i got to my desired rwtq. then id go in and ramp it with the FJO or like progressive controller.


but thats me
what do you think?

redbullapril23

also i bet wed want a bypass regulator inline to return the methanol to the reservior

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

To the top, and just
Robert

redbullapril23

thanks Rob

cantdrv65

iTrader: (3)

The only comment I will add is to reiterate the importance of keeping the methanol pure. If it is allowed to absorb water from the atmosphere, it would really complicate things....

NXJeremy

Like White2001s10 said, just doubling the amount of fuel isn't going to cut it, even as starting point. Here's a little information just to through out there;

Jetting for 200hp on our Shark direct port system is-
26N/20F @ 10psi flowing fuel pressure (gasoline)
The 20 fuel jet will flow 16.22 Lbs./Hr. @ 10psi FFP.

The same 200hp on the same system on ALCOHOL is -
26N/26F @ 10psi FFP (alky)
The 26 fuel jet will flow 34.16 Lbs./Hr. @ 10psi FFP.

So it's going to take more than double to get close on the tune up when running alky.

Now comes the hard part, getting the a/f right. For an example, we normally recommend and tune cars to be between 11.8-12.0:1 when running the motor and the nitrous system on gas. Well, 12:1 a/f with gas equals ~7.5:1 with alcohol, and stoichiometric a/f with gas is ~13:6 (correct me on this figure if I'm wrong here) which is just a little over 8.0:1 with alky. Keep in mind this is when running straight alky (either on a N/A motor or on both the motor and nitrous). The problem is that most people run gas on the motor and alky on the nitrous system, so therein lies the tuning headaches of trying to tune a motor that is running two different fuels that work best at two different a/f ratios.

If anyone needs Advil I've got enough to own stock in the company, lol.

redbullapril23

this is very true. i have been wondering about this....

i just throwing ideas out there hoping ppl will either agree or disagree and say y?

anyone know how u might tune and waht the final AFR goal would be?

later n thanks

your friend
Sean

NXJeremy

Of the few cars that I have been involved with running an alky nitrous system with a gas motor they seemed to like running at about 11:0 -11.5:1 while spraying, which comes out to 6:1 - 6.5:1 for the alky. However, one of the cars (and others that I have seen) just did not react/run well with the nitrous system on alky regardless of how rich or lean it was ran. Some motors like and some hate it.

NitrousDirect

iTrader: (1)

We actually have been working on this for quite some time and are pretty close to a perfect meth set up. Will keep you guys informed as we can. Just been swamped with alot of R&D and customer service etc

Here are some basic methanol facts for you guys

Because methanol is "hygroscopic" meaning it absorbs water, it requires special handling procedures. The number one piece of advise is to buy only as much fuel as you will use in a week, and buy the fuel from a reputable vendor who stores the fuel in sealed metal drums.

In addition to attracting water, methanol is corrosive to metals, gaskets and seals. In four stroke engines it is recommended that you use a "top lube" or methanol fuel treatment in order to combat corrosion. Many motorsports oil manufacturers make products specifically for treating methanol fuel systems.


While it's a higher octane, Methanol fuels are less tolerant of a lean air/fuel ratio than gasoline and will detonate violently. Fortunately methanol detonation or pinging is quite audible, so if you hear any "rattle" you must stop immediately and richen the carburetor settings.

Once the methanol has been drained from the entire fuel system you will have to put gasoline into the carburetors and run the engine. We use a radiator overflow bottle filled with pre-mix, attach a hose from the bottom of the bottle to the fuel fittings on the carbs. Start the engine and run it for two or three minutes, leave the gasoline in the fuel system until the next ride.

Methanol must be drained from the fuel system at the end of the day every day. This is especially important in the coastal climates. Because fuel tanks and carburetors are ventilated to the atmosphere the methanol inside will absorb water and corrode costly fuel system components.


Now my personal experience with methanol is from injecting it into my turbo snowmobile. We are working on the jetting and perfect pump for it, but keep in mind this is not going to be a low maintence system by any means. But the potential benefits are pretty substantial

NXJeremy

I pretty much agree with the excerpt that Nitrous Direct posted, but it looks to be in referrence to running straight alcohol on a carburated motorcycle/atv/snow mobile/etc. (please correct me if I'm incorrect). It's quite different to tune an EFI V8 using gas, alky, and nitrous all together at once if the user is accustomed to running just gas and nitrous.

Also, there are pumps, regulators, and solenoids that are made specifically for alky (different seal/gaskets/o-rings) and will resist the corrosive properties of the fuel. I would still recommend a routine checking/maintenance of the various fuel parts (pump, regulator, solenoids, etc.) that includes flushing the system periodically.

Scott, if you don't mind me asking, what pump/regulator are you guys doing your testing with? Also, what type of system are you guys developing (ie; direct port, plate, single/dual nozzle)?

redbullapril23

i think that direct port would be the only thing that would need this as all shots are over a 200 shot.

id be interested too as in what kind of system and or if theyd make a conversion kit.

thanks alot your
Friend
Sean

spanktu

iTrader: (19)

jeremy,

alot of the T.R. Buick alcohol kits were using Shurflo pumps,
it is just a high pressure (30-50psi) water pump that can be purchased from Northern
they have a very nice pump design.

NitrousDirect

iTrader: (1)

Yes exeprts were from running meth as a main source fuel but I feel it applies just the same as it will be a fuel and will be burnt, corrosion, water absorbtion etc all apply just the same. The seals and what not in alky noids and pumps are designed just for that, but when it comes to your motor, gaskets, lines and other things they were not. So we're doing alot of testing and r&d to see just what can withstand longterm methanol residues etc, and it may only be applicable for direct port, even though I LOVED the air charge cooling effects in my sled applications

As for what we are developing there are several things on the table now in several forms and several pumps on the table being tested as well for reliability, forum and function.

TwoFast4Lv

iTrader: (8)

Jeremy I am sure I typed your name right Not sure I ever owned any thing with "Two Valves"...un-less it was blown up.

So I am guessing we could bump fuel pressure 'some' with a return system to help offset some of the issues of running to low a Pressure? The System I designed at present has two nossles and may have as many as 12 when I get done. larger multi solenoids may be in use as Jeremy has indicated may be needed.

SO we would have the ability to run up to 220PSI flowing 2 galons a minute on the Meth side. It has been indicated that a much lower Fuel Pressure should be used? If so what would be a good pressure to run and what would be the benifits of such a system? In the past I have used a Holley jet install on a return line to achive the pressure and volume I needed and still get air out of a fuel system

Here is the fuel 'I' would be using

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/spec/SpecsheetM1.html

This system is propritery only for two shop cars and Speed Secrets BTW. All information that is shared here is as public as I can make it Nothing to hide as it were

redbullapril23

this sounds great!
please keep us informed about what setups u try that either dont work or work..

id love to be the guinea pig..hehe

later
your friend
Sean

NXJeremy

TwoFast4V- Sounds interesting. It shouldn't take more than 60-65psi flowing fuel pressure (ajusting the jetting accordingly of course). And you're right about using a jet in the return line to help with pressure while still getting the air out of the system.

Spanktu- I've not heard of that pump. How does it hold up to the alky (seal/gaskets)? Did they replace the seal/gaskets with ones that were for alky use.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

Jeremy, got some ?'s about the methanol/N2O mix.

Knowing the stoich ratio of methanol is about half that of gasoline obviously changes the tuning requirement, but is it that most people don't realize that methanol wants to run much richer, and sometimes 40% richer than stoich?

Another potential problem is vaporizing that amount of methanol via a fogger nozzle. Methanol needs at least 3 things in order to vaporize in an intake manifold. I believe they are time, distance, and heat. A DP fogger provides neither of these. I would think that vaporizing N2O so close to liquid methanol would actually suck heat from the methanol and greatly complicate the vaporization even with the added motion energy. Does this not cause many people even more tuning problems when trying to run meth/N2O?

Successful racers at my local track have told me without question it's far better to run methanol as your main fuel, and gasoline through the foggers. Have you tried it this way?

NXJeremy

White - You hit it right on the head. Most of the racers I know realize that the alky likes to run considerably rich, but they don't understand the problems incurred with using it in a direct port. Generally the plates work a little better but not much, I haven't personally seen anyone use a single nozzle that was mounted out in front of a throttle body but I would think that it would work the best of these three setups.

The guys at your local track are right, it is much easier to use alky as the main fuel and gas as the nitrous fuel, but there are still some quirks to it to figure out. However, most people don't want to go to the trouble of converting their main fuel system over to alky.

The other application that it works really well in is a forced induction setup. Blower cars respond very well to using alky with a nitrous plate and gas on the motor because the blower is creating the heat due to the un-intercooled boost. There was a local guy here that ran a blower on a 468 BBC with a nitrous plate on alky. That blower loved it, and ran so cold that after an 1/8th mile pass the blower and hat would almost be frosted over, lol.