Discussion: Nitrous nozzle design and is it important?
02-20-2006, 07:13 PM
#41
TECH Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 3,726
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
And on the people burning pistons on high HP tune ups and fixing it with a nozzle/setuop change.....that could be problematic characteristic of that nozzle at very high flow rates. It may not exist at slightly less flow rates on that nozzle.
02-20-2006, 07:14 PM
#42
Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
No no Robert...Im not in a bad mood. On the contrary...I am back to my old self. I doubt everything and Im a serious skeptic. I have actually been refraining from any real discussion for some time. For I while there I felt like I comprimised myself by working for a sponsor here and had to watch what i said about certain products. My new attitude is I will say whatever is on my mind and not slant ANYTHING for any reason. If Dave gets pissed Ill guess he will have to chew me out 
And do not think this discussion was directed towards you or CF...as plenty have made nozzle claims in the past. You have just been the one responding the most.
And do not think this discussion was directed towards you or CF...as plenty have made nozzle claims in the past. You have just been the one responding the most.
hey, did I tell you I got new best mph, Sunday before last. I couldn't really go for it though, as I was waiting on some new lap belts, and trying not to get the boot again this year. I will be testing the atomization of my nozzles on my triple stage, oh wait, I am dry no worries.
However, this will be changing in the near future as wet is going on, after I get back to the top of the NW top 30 street/strip list. There are quite a few turbo and blower guys nipping at my heals and some already passing me up, so I have to get a good time on the full dry set up before adding wet, just outa spite, hehehe. We had a few nitrous guys in the top ten last year, but the turbo guys are coming on strong. I did a best out of 3 against this fast azz twin turbo Audi yesterday, and I was only running one stage, got him 2 of the 3. Now he wants to add n2o. I may choose these new nozzles as my modus operandus concerning my wet stage, and see how they work in the real world, as I have never been a dyno racer. 
Robert
02-20-2006, 07:16 PM
#43
Launching!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No problem I try to reply to some threads just not the ones that dont have any real disscusion going on.
And I hear what your saying about shots under 150hp. Most everyones nozzles will dyno the same because there is just not enough going through the nozzle change. Nozzle to Nozzle. Because all the nozzles are sufficent in orrfice size to flow well at small shots, but when you go bigger is when things start happening.
And we have the ways to test the different nozzles and we have tested them. But there is no way we are letting our testing get out.Were other manufactures can redesign and fix there nozzles from our testing.
And you know you got a good poduct when people call up and say they just talked to a certain company and there sales rep. told them to call us. I will keep the company of that certain sales rep. confidental. And it has happened more than once.
And I hear what your saying about shots under 150hp. Most everyones nozzles will dyno the same because there is just not enough going through the nozzle change. Nozzle to Nozzle. Because all the nozzles are sufficent in orrfice size to flow well at small shots, but when you go bigger is when things start happening.
And we have the ways to test the different nozzles and we have tested them. But there is no way we are letting our testing get out.Were other manufactures can redesign and fix there nozzles from our testing.
And you know you got a good poduct when people call up and say they just talked to a certain company and there sales rep. told them to call us. I will keep the company of that certain sales rep. confidental. And it has happened more than once.
02-20-2006, 07:21 PM
#44
Launching!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And just like robert just said, He is not a dyno racer.
Just because it dynos more doesnt meen it will accelerate faster going down the track.
Thanks Ben for the compliment. And that 3.992 was coasting.
And with a lack luster 60ft.
Just because it dynos more doesnt meen it will accelerate faster going down the track.
Thanks Ben for the compliment. And that 3.992 was coasting.
And with a lack luster 60ft.
02-20-2006, 11:40 PM
#45
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Port Richey
Posts: 4,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by N20GMC
And I hear what your saying about shots under 150hp. Most everyones nozzles will dyno the same because there is just not enough going through the nozzle change. Nozzle to Nozzle. Because all the nozzles are sufficent in orrfice size to flow well at small shots, but when you go bigger is when things start happening.
.
.
02-21-2006, 02:29 AM
#46
Ok Its 2 am and I do not have time to read all this. However this is how I feel. Take it or leave it.
Earlier in the nitrous game there were some poor distributing nozzles on the market. Through out time the nozzle desighnes have became better attomizing desighns. At this time there are many very well attomizing nozzles on the market. For the most part some may very a tad bit.
Now here is the problem for the people that need the help.
I have a hard time believing a nozzle no matter how well it attomizes can produce 17.9 HP more and a full 750 RPM earlier on 4 different test cars.
Have you ever tested products on a dyno on multiple cars. Things will change because of to many variences. Ever notice your car gains more power through out just the first few pulls on a dyno? Ever notices after a while it gets hot and looses power? Ever noticed just simply pulling the car different or even putting air in the tire can change hp and torque readings?
OK Next. Airfuel.
This is the even bigger ticket. To anyone that undertsands airfuel is a huge roll. Small changes change air fuel. Add fuel gain torque, Take away fuel gain power..I just do not see the gains claimed with the same air fuel. If the nozzle flows more the air fuel is going to change.There is no way that it would do the things claimed with out any changes to some of these already very well developed nozzles that it was supposibly tested against.
However looking at the nozzle. Im sure it works well. We actually were discussing making something similiar a few months back. Good job. The rest well its a marketing ploy as far as I am concerned.
The Final thing that bugs me. How can a company test something and not come to the table with all the facts. Compare there product to another and then not expect to be asked for proof.
There is no way I would come to the table with out all the facts.
What if people have a hard time believing a Nitrous Manafacture has no way of scanning and posting dyno graphs. What if they feel it is a way of procastinating and buying time while they doctor up some graphs.( Never Know) Why take that chance???
I would be happy seeing the graphs shown on all 4 test cars. With airfuel and a description of what is what.
I always get other companys products and test them Im sure this nozzle will end up in my hands just like the rest of the parts I have cut apart tested and taken very good pictures of.
So here is my conclusion. I think the nozzle will probley work fine.. Not sure with out flowing it. Will it test the same outcome posted. No I do not see it possible.(MARKETING)
Dave
Earlier in the nitrous game there were some poor distributing nozzles on the market. Through out time the nozzle desighnes have became better attomizing desighns. At this time there are many very well attomizing nozzles on the market. For the most part some may very a tad bit.
Now here is the problem for the people that need the help.
I have a hard time believing a nozzle no matter how well it attomizes can produce 17.9 HP more and a full 750 RPM earlier on 4 different test cars.
Have you ever tested products on a dyno on multiple cars. Things will change because of to many variences. Ever notice your car gains more power through out just the first few pulls on a dyno? Ever notices after a while it gets hot and looses power? Ever noticed just simply pulling the car different or even putting air in the tire can change hp and torque readings?
OK Next. Airfuel.
This is the even bigger ticket. To anyone that undertsands airfuel is a huge roll. Small changes change air fuel. Add fuel gain torque, Take away fuel gain power..I just do not see the gains claimed with the same air fuel. If the nozzle flows more the air fuel is going to change.There is no way that it would do the things claimed with out any changes to some of these already very well developed nozzles that it was supposibly tested against.
However looking at the nozzle. Im sure it works well. We actually were discussing making something similiar a few months back. Good job. The rest well its a marketing ploy as far as I am concerned.
The Final thing that bugs me. How can a company test something and not come to the table with all the facts. Compare there product to another and then not expect to be asked for proof.
There is no way I would come to the table with out all the facts.
What if people have a hard time believing a Nitrous Manafacture has no way of scanning and posting dyno graphs. What if they feel it is a way of procastinating and buying time while they doctor up some graphs.( Never Know) Why take that chance???
I would be happy seeing the graphs shown on all 4 test cars. With airfuel and a description of what is what.
I always get other companys products and test them Im sure this nozzle will end up in my hands just like the rest of the parts I have cut apart tested and taken very good pictures of.
So here is my conclusion. I think the nozzle will probley work fine.. Not sure with out flowing it. Will it test the same outcome posted. No I do not see it possible.(MARKETING)
Dave
Last edited by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet; 02-21-2006 at 03:13 AM.
02-21-2006, 11:35 AM
#47
FormerVendor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wichita Falls,Tx
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow Dave, you kinda just came out of left field with that one (as far as the discussion of this thread, but I know where you're coming from), LOL.
Anyway, I guess I'll through out my take on the nozzle design thing. I agree with alot of what Al and N2OGMC have been saying. But I think a lot of people are missing two key points.
First, is the LS1 market (which is why we're here). I keep seeing referrences to people having the best nozzle and running the fastest. Let's face it, everyone that knows anything about the nitrous industry knows that Jenkins' team is the quickest/fastest, and that a lot of the promods and outlaw type cars use his company's product. BUT, honestly, how many LS1's are spraying as much total as Jenkins sprays on one stage? Hell, how many LS1's spray over 250hp? No disrespect intended toward N2OGMC/Speedtech/Jenkins, just trying to point out that we should be focusing on the LSx market, not on max output like what's used in promod and outlaw racing. And in most cases, you can take any decent nozzle design and make similar flow results.
The second point is that I think people tend to over analyze individual components. It takes an entire system that works well as a complete unit to make lots of power safely. Just taking a single part of a system and saying that it out performs all others is pretty pointless IMO simply because it depends on what else you were using.A good example of things working together as a complete system is if you could take Shannon Jenkin's motor out of his car and put it in another promod that he has never had a hand in. I would be 100% possitive that it would not run as quick, and that's simply because Shannon has spent years perfecting every aspect of his combination. Not just the motor, or the clutch, or the suspension, but everything together as a package. I do not think you can design, or even analyze, a single part and say that it is the holy grail, or end all/be all of parts.
Again, no disrespect toward anyone (especially N2OGMC/Speedtech, just used you guys as an example, nothing more). On a side note, it's great to see some the technical discussions coming back to the forum and actually staying on topic, lol. Questions and discussions are what will help with the advancement of the nitrous industry.
Anyway, I guess I'll through out my take on the nozzle design thing. I agree with alot of what Al and N2OGMC have been saying. But I think a lot of people are missing two key points.
First, is the LS1 market (which is why we're here). I keep seeing referrences to people having the best nozzle and running the fastest. Let's face it, everyone that knows anything about the nitrous industry knows that Jenkins' team is the quickest/fastest, and that a lot of the promods and outlaw type cars use his company's product. BUT, honestly, how many LS1's are spraying as much total as Jenkins sprays on one stage? Hell, how many LS1's spray over 250hp? No disrespect intended toward N2OGMC/Speedtech/Jenkins, just trying to point out that we should be focusing on the LSx market, not on max output like what's used in promod and outlaw racing. And in most cases, you can take any decent nozzle design and make similar flow results.
The second point is that I think people tend to over analyze individual components. It takes an entire system that works well as a complete unit to make lots of power safely. Just taking a single part of a system and saying that it out performs all others is pretty pointless IMO simply because it depends on what else you were using.A good example of things working together as a complete system is if you could take Shannon Jenkin's motor out of his car and put it in another promod that he has never had a hand in. I would be 100% possitive that it would not run as quick, and that's simply because Shannon has spent years perfecting every aspect of his combination. Not just the motor, or the clutch, or the suspension, but everything together as a package. I do not think you can design, or even analyze, a single part and say that it is the holy grail, or end all/be all of parts.
Again, no disrespect toward anyone (especially N2OGMC/Speedtech, just used you guys as an example, nothing more). On a side note, it's great to see some the technical discussions coming back to the forum and actually staying on topic, lol. Questions and discussions are what will help with the advancement of the nitrous industry.
02-21-2006, 10:38 PM
#48
Launching!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No offense taken, and there probably isnt many people sparying over 250 on LS1 cars, but there are gains to be had with our stuff, NOT TRYING to sell anything,
And the Shannon Jenkins, Brandon Switzer experience is what has taken our stuff ahead of the competition.
We do have LS1 car running around with our foggers and the love them, there is a guy running a FAST intake with the stock bottom end spraying 200 and he says the car never hick ups, burns plugs or nothing, Sorry got off on a tangent none of that matters, But there is also a Vette with independent rear suspension that has our fogger that has run in the 8's with our stuff so we do have the stuff out there and running just not enough, and if we became a sponsor on here we could do that.
And the Shannon Jenkins, Brandon Switzer experience is what has taken our stuff ahead of the competition.
We do have LS1 car running around with our foggers and the love them, there is a guy running a FAST intake with the stock bottom end spraying 200 and he says the car never hick ups, burns plugs or nothing, Sorry got off on a tangent none of that matters, But there is also a Vette with independent rear suspension that has our fogger that has run in the 8's with our stuff so we do have the stuff out there and running just not enough, and if we became a sponsor on here we could do that.
02-21-2006, 11:06 PM
#49
Originally Posted by N20GMC
No offense taken, and there probably isnt many people sparying over 250 on LS1 cars, but there are gains to be had with our stuff, NOT TRYING to sell anything,
And the Shannon Jenkins, Brandon Switzer experience is what has taken our stuff ahead of the competition.
We do have LS1 car running around with our foggers and the love them, there is a guy running a FAST intake with the stock bottom end spraying 200 and he says the car never hick ups, burns plugs or nothing, Sorry got off on a tangent none of that matters, But there is also a Vette with independent rear suspension that has our fogger that has run in the 8's with our stuff so we do have the stuff out there and running just not enough, and if we became a sponsor on here we could do that.
And the Shannon Jenkins, Brandon Switzer experience is what has taken our stuff ahead of the competition.
We do have LS1 car running around with our foggers and the love them, there is a guy running a FAST intake with the stock bottom end spraying 200 and he says the car never hick ups, burns plugs or nothing, Sorry got off on a tangent none of that matters, But there is also a Vette with independent rear suspension that has our fogger that has run in the 8's with our stuff so we do have the stuff out there and running just not enough, and if we became a sponsor on here we could do that.
Major Spray 8.90 Video with IRS
And just for good measure, and to show another fast vette,
Paul Z06 8.49 Video, Z06 world record
Robert
02-22-2006, 12:25 PM
#50
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Port Richey
Posts: 4,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After rereading the Predator introduction thread...I see Albert said several times that the extra power was due to this nozzle flowing more nitrous with the same jets. I can certainly buy that. I didnt buy the better atomization/efficeincy thing for a second.
But this goes right back to the point I was trying to make. You may do the same thing by going to a -6 feed line when spraying a 200+ shot. Or switching to high flow fittings.
Or just changing the actual jet orifice. Which is the primary way to gain HP/flow in a nitrous system.
It just doesnt make any sense to change a more expensive component in a nitrous sytem other than the jets to gain HP. Unless that component is a restriction blocking the flow requirements to reach your total HP goal.
But this goes right back to the point I was trying to make. You may do the same thing by going to a -6 feed line when spraying a 200+ shot. Or switching to high flow fittings.
Or just changing the actual jet orifice. Which is the primary way to gain HP/flow in a nitrous system.
It just doesnt make any sense to change a more expensive component in a nitrous sytem other than the jets to gain HP. Unless that component is a restriction blocking the flow requirements to reach your total HP goal.
02-22-2006, 12:59 PM
#51
FormerVendor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wichita Falls,Tx
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although the design of the new nozzle is interesting, I thought it odd that it was not consistant in the three graphs. Like Al has said from the beginning, it would be much easier (and less expensive) to just jet up for what ever amount of power you want.
Al, got a question for you (or anyone else really). If you take the curves from all three graphs and overlay them onto a single graph and position the curves to start at the same point, would this be somewhat accurate in simulating all the pulls being performed the same way? I know it wouldn't be absolute since things like converter/clutch slippage, tire spin, etc. can change from run to run. But would it be close? I did this just for curiousity and the results are very interesting concerning the performance of the nozzles. Maybe I was way off on this one, lol? Feel free to tell me if this is retarted thinking, lol.
Al, got a question for you (or anyone else really). If you take the curves from all three graphs and overlay them onto a single graph and position the curves to start at the same point, would this be somewhat accurate in simulating all the pulls being performed the same way? I know it wouldn't be absolute since things like converter/clutch slippage, tire spin, etc. can change from run to run. But would it be close? I did this just for curiousity and the results are very interesting concerning the performance of the nozzles. Maybe I was way off on this one, lol? Feel free to tell me if this is retarted thinking, lol.
02-22-2006, 01:13 PM
#52
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Port Richey
Posts: 4,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from evey nitrous dyno I have ever done or been involved with or seen...where the system was working properly, its was properly purged, bottle pressure and other variables remained constant...the general shape of the curve was very very consistant. Especially the angles. Even if you started a little later in rpm it would always be the same general curve and angle...just at different MPH/RPM and maybe different over all peak. But the shape was very VERY similiar run to run.
Even if you started late and ended early and compared that small section of dyno to one that started 500 rpm ealrier and ended 500 later...you should be able to match them up to a similair "section" of the other. The slight differences should be less than 10-15 hp on say a 500 rwhp setup. Obviously the HP is increased the acceptable marigin of error...or change between runs goes up as well. If I was dynoing my old setup at 850 rwhp I would expect it to be within 25 hp in most areas from run to run. and always carry the same general shape or curve. If its not there are some consistancy issues with the kit or nitrous or fuel IMO and would need to be adressed before headed to the track.
Even if you started late and ended early and compared that small section of dyno to one that started 500 rpm ealrier and ended 500 later...you should be able to match them up to a similair "section" of the other. The slight differences should be less than 10-15 hp on say a 500 rwhp setup. Obviously the HP is increased the acceptable marigin of error...or change between runs goes up as well. If I was dynoing my old setup at 850 rwhp I would expect it to be within 25 hp in most areas from run to run. and always carry the same general shape or curve. If its not there are some consistancy issues with the kit or nitrous or fuel IMO and would need to be adressed before headed to the track.
02-22-2006, 10:52 PM
#53
Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
After rereading the Predator introduction thread...I see Albert said several times that the extra power was due to this nozzle flowing more nitrous with the same jets. I can certainly buy that. I didnt buy the better atomization/efficeincy thing for a second.
But this goes right back to the point I was trying to make. You may do the same thing by going to a -6 feed line when spraying a 200+ shot. Or switching to high flow fittings.
Or just changing the actual jet orifice. Which is the primary way to gain HP/flow in a nitrous system.
It just doesnt make any sense to change a more expensive component in a nitrous sytem other than the jets to gain HP. Unless that component is a restriction blocking the flow requirements to reach your total HP goal.
But this goes right back to the point I was trying to make. You may do the same thing by going to a -6 feed line when spraying a 200+ shot. Or switching to high flow fittings.
Or just changing the actual jet orifice. Which is the primary way to gain HP/flow in a nitrous system.
It just doesnt make any sense to change a more expensive component in a nitrous sytem other than the jets to gain HP. Unless that component is a restriction blocking the flow requirements to reach your total HP goal.
You think it's cheaper to play a guessing game and replace a 15 foot line to 6an and and high flow fittings. I put my money on something that's known to work, rather than a gamble.
Take a close look at the egineering of the shark nozzle and others, and then the predator, with one taking a couple steps further, imo. This can be shown by the restricting of the nitrous flow on past style nozzles. I believe Cold fusion has a winner here.
Robert
02-23-2006, 12:22 AM
#54
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Port Richey
Posts: 4,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RObert....Albert from Cold Fusion stated several times the gains in HP were due to the fact that with this nozzle in place the entire setup flowed more....resulting in the gains. It is not utilizing the same amount of n20 with the same jets. More nitrous = more power. Atomization on these good nozzles is a non factor IMO. Its all about nitrous flow rate.
02-23-2006, 12:40 AM
#55
Originally Posted by 383LQ4SS
RObert....Albert from Cold Fusion stated several times the gains in HP were due to the fact that with this nozzle in place the entire setup flowed more....resulting in the gains. It is not utilizing the same amount of n20 with the same jets. More nitrous = more power. Atomization on these good nozzles is a non factor IMO. Its all about nitrous flow rate.
Robert
02-23-2006, 12:52 AM
#56
TECH Veteran
Thread Starter
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Port Richey
Posts: 4,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dont get me wrong here. Atomization plays a role. But only if you are comparing a nozzle that does a REALLY bad job. Most of the newer nozzles do an excellent job of atomizing fuel. Good enough that there really isnt going to be any noticable power gains from it.
Again...differences in flow will be the biggest factor in HP gains. Much more than comparing a nozzle the does a "really excellent" job of atomizing fuel VS one that does a "really really excellent" job of atomizing fuel.
Now if you did a comparison of a "really excellent" nozzle VS a tube the squirts fuel in the intake...obviously there will be a difference. but we arent even remotely comparing something like that.
Again...differences in flow will be the biggest factor in HP gains. Much more than comparing a nozzle the does a "really excellent" job of atomizing fuel VS one that does a "really really excellent" job of atomizing fuel.
Now if you did a comparison of a "really excellent" nozzle VS a tube the squirts fuel in the intake...obviously there will be a difference. but we arent even remotely comparing something like that.
02-23-2006, 10:36 AM
#58
FormerVendor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wichita Falls,Tx
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think Robert and Al are both kinda, sorta, not really getting at the same point, lol. Albert has stated several times now that the nozzle flowed more nitrous, which I feel is the reason it "happen" to make more power on the one run they show against the NX nozzle (I'm only using the NX nozzle because that's what the big claim was). I say "happen" because if you look at the three graphs you can easily see that the nozzle is very inconsistent. In three pulls it made right at 500hp, under 500hp, and over 500hp. Maybe the other nozzles are inconsistent too, but that's not what is shown in the three graphs. And, maybe the variances in output of the Predator is due to other factors (converter, driver, the way it was pulled, etc.). However, going by what is shown I wouldn't say that this part is "known to work, rather than a gamble" as Robert put it.
I hope Robert or anyone else doesn't take my comments as starting an argument. I think CF has a good design on their hands and I'm sure it will sell. However, at this point in time, and based on the information availible, I don't think it's valid to say that any one of the high quality nozzles on the market (TNT,CF,NX,Speedtech, etc.) are dominately better than the others in the area of atomization/efficiency.
I hope Robert or anyone else doesn't take my comments as starting an argument. I think CF has a good design on their hands and I'm sure it will sell. However, at this point in time, and based on the information availible, I don't think it's valid to say that any one of the high quality nozzles on the market (TNT,CF,NX,Speedtech, etc.) are dominately better than the others in the area of atomization/efficiency.
02-23-2006, 10:41 AM
#59
Ok I am still learning here and as you all know I bought the nozzle and will test it my way when I get back to my car. 383lq4 you mentioned that nozzles today are very similar in atomization and gave some percentages in the other thread. Can you elaborate on what these were percentages of and how you can test this and get an actual number?? The only way I can think of testing this would be a high speed camera and counting fuel droplets in a frame which doesn't seem too practical to me. Not trying to start crap here just trying to learn more for me
02-23-2006, 10:55 AM
#60
FormerVendor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Wichita Falls,Tx
Posts: 864
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
95ttoplt1- I think Al was just using percentages as a hypothetical situation to make things a little easier to understand. They were'nt actual figures. It would be very difficult and very expensive to actually determine a percentage of atomization for a given nozzle design. You could use a beam of light (read-laser) going through the spray at the exit of the nozzle to calculate the number of particals, but I think it would be very difficult to distinguish fuel from nitrous oxide when doing it this way. So maybe that wouldn't be such an accurate way either.