nitrous with alky injection
08-20-2006, 10:31 PM
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nitrous with alky injection anyone run alky injection with there wet kits. would this work? i know it would up the octane. i was thinking about running a dry shot and throwing a little alky injection in also to up the octane.
08-20-2006, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cjg454ss
anyone run alky injection with there wet kits. would this work? i know it would up the octane. i was thinking about running a dry shot and throwing a little alky injection in also to up the octane.
Nitrous already cools, in fact it'll burn you its so cold! So there would be no reason or purpose to inject alcohol on a nitrous application.
Nitrous on a boosted application is great because you get the cooling and the added oxygen.
08-21-2006, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 00Vette
The purpose of alcohol injection is to cool the intake charge on boosted motors like turbo and supercharged motors.
Nitrous already cools, in fact it'll burn you its so cold! So there would be no reason or purpose to inject alcohol on a nitrous application.
Nitrous on a boosted application is great because you get the cooling and the added oxygen.
Nitrous already cools, in fact it'll burn you its so cold! So there would be no reason or purpose to inject alcohol on a nitrous application.
Nitrous on a boosted application is great because you get the cooling and the added oxygen.
08-21-2006, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cjg454ss
not to correct you but nitrous cools the intake charge but the cylinder temp is even higher with nitrous running, on a supercharger or turbo application. alky cools the intake charge but also cools cylinder temperature. i know i dont need the alky for cylinder temps but was wanting to use it as a type of stand alone fuel system when spraying. akly has a rating of 102+ octane, i was just wondering if anyone has messed with it, subsituting alky instead of gas in a wet kit.
The intent of alcohol injection is to lower intake charge temp that super/turbo chargers increase due to compressing the air. The more air and fuel in a combutstion chamber the hotter the temp will be in the combustion chamber.
I highly doubt anyone has ran alcohol injection in there nitrous application. But who knows!!
08-21-2006, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SPLATT
if alky was 102+ wouldnt it make the cylinder temp slightly higher??
Maybe someone else more educated can chime in here!!!!
08-21-2006, 08:25 PM
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this is a set up i have been toying with for a little while now..
i am using c16 in the standalone for the wet kit and a 50/50 alky water mix both n/a and on the dry kit.. while it is costing me some hp in both setups i ran a near identical MPH of 128 at 3pm when it was 95+ that i did later that night in 79-82* weather..
would i say it works yet.. NO.. but i'm toying.. but i'm in the middle of another big purchase right now and playing with the car is kinda back burnered.. but i have a feeling i am really gone love this from a safetly and security standpoint
Mike
i am using c16 in the standalone for the wet kit and a 50/50 alky water mix both n/a and on the dry kit.. while it is costing me some hp in both setups i ran a near identical MPH of 128 at 3pm when it was 95+ that i did later that night in 79-82* weather..
would i say it works yet.. NO.. but i'm toying.. but i'm in the middle of another big purchase right now and playing with the car is kinda back burnered.. but i have a feeling i am really gone love this from a safetly and security standpoint
Mike
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08-22-2006, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 00Vette
Do what you wish. But I don't see how alcohol injection would lower combustion temps.
The intent of alcohol injection is to lower intake charge temp that super/turbo chargers increase due to compressing the air. The more air and fuel in a combutstion chamber the hotter the temp will be in the combustion chamber.
I highly doubt anyone has ran alcohol injection in there nitrous application. But who knows!!
The intent of alcohol injection is to lower intake charge temp that super/turbo chargers increase due to compressing the air. The more air and fuel in a combutstion chamber the hotter the temp will be in the combustion chamber.
I highly doubt anyone has ran alcohol injection in there nitrous application. But who knows!!
09-03-2006, 01:59 AM
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I ran alky on a blown motor and it worked great. I called the place where I bought my kit from, and asked if running alky on an N/A motor with nitrous would be Beneficial...he said yes it would.
So, it may be worth it...I wish more people would chime in? I would like to use it, the crappy gas we get here in CA sucks. Even if it raised it a couple of points...it would be worth it.
So, it may be worth it...I wish more people would chime in? I would like to use it, the crappy gas we get here in CA sucks. Even if it raised it a couple of points...it would be worth it.
11-16-2006, 01:17 PM
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digging this up again, anyone having any luck. i problem im having is figuing the a/f of the motor+nos+alky. the air fuel on an alky motor is diffferent. anyone know what is it? i forget.
11-16-2006, 02:52 PM
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Alky is good methanol is better, the benifits high octane and low cylinder temps.
My idea is to use Methanol on the fuel side of my wet kit, then you can run pump gas and a good size shot anytime you want.
Has anyone done this?
Will cylinder temps get to low?
Not to long ago the problem was if the pump failed you were done, but now there is a controler that measures flow after the pump and can turn N20 on and off.
http://www.snowperformance.net/prodd...p?prod=SI%2D10
We have tested it on many turdo applications and it works great.
My friend runs Methanol Injection on his 9 second stock motor 03 cobra w/ hellion 76
http://media.putfile.com/1200HPviper
My idea is to use Methanol on the fuel side of my wet kit, then you can run pump gas and a good size shot anytime you want.
Has anyone done this?
Will cylinder temps get to low?
Not to long ago the problem was if the pump failed you were done, but now there is a controler that measures flow after the pump and can turn N20 on and off.
http://www.snowperformance.net/prodd...p?prod=SI%2D10
We have tested it on many turdo applications and it works great.
My friend runs Methanol Injection on his 9 second stock motor 03 cobra w/ hellion 76
http://media.putfile.com/1200HPviper
Last edited by SY732; 11-16-2006 at 03:05 PM.
11-17-2006, 09:37 PM
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Methanol and Nitrous In response to the question what is the proper mixture for Methanol.
The “proper” i.e., stoich mixtures for gasoline and methanol are as follows:
These are approximate of course.
Gasoline and Air ---- 14.6:1
Gasoline and N2O --- 9.0 :1
Methanol and Air ---- 7.0 :1
Methanol and N2O –- 4.5 :1
Methanol is a great fuel to mix with N20,
Because you will be using twice as much Methanol as Gasoline it will provide twice as much cooling due to the additional “heat of vaporization” ---providing significant protection from detonation. In addition it has an Octane rating of 104
One of its best characteristic is that unlike gasoline, you can run it 40% rich without loosing any power. Therefore running a little rich “to be on the safe side” makes really good sense.
It also will provide more energy than gasoline. Although it has less energy per pound or per gallon you will be using twice as much so there will be a net gain.
On the down side it’s more expensive than gasoline and worst of all it is a “high maintenance fuel” by that I mean you will need to flush it out of all the places it touches as a liquid - often. It does leave a nasty residue that can mess up small orifices quickly, if allowed to sit around between weekends.
Good luck
SpeedyPAL
The “proper” i.e., stoich mixtures for gasoline and methanol are as follows:
These are approximate of course.
Gasoline and Air ---- 14.6:1
Gasoline and N2O --- 9.0 :1
Methanol and Air ---- 7.0 :1
Methanol and N2O –- 4.5 :1
Methanol is a great fuel to mix with N20,
Because you will be using twice as much Methanol as Gasoline it will provide twice as much cooling due to the additional “heat of vaporization” ---providing significant protection from detonation. In addition it has an Octane rating of 104
One of its best characteristic is that unlike gasoline, you can run it 40% rich without loosing any power. Therefore running a little rich “to be on the safe side” makes really good sense.
It also will provide more energy than gasoline. Although it has less energy per pound or per gallon you will be using twice as much so there will be a net gain.
On the down side it’s more expensive than gasoline and worst of all it is a “high maintenance fuel” by that I mean you will need to flush it out of all the places it touches as a liquid - often. It does leave a nasty residue that can mess up small orifices quickly, if allowed to sit around between weekends.
Good luck
SpeedyPAL
11-18-2006, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SpeedyPAL
In response to the question what is the proper mixture for Methanol.
The “proper” i.e., stoich mixtures for gasoline and methanol are as follows:
These are approximate of course.
Gasoline and Air ---- 14.6:1
Gasoline and N2O --- 9.0 :1
Methanol and Air ---- 7.0 :1
Methanol and N2O –- 4.5 :1
Methanol is a great fuel to mix with N20,
Because you will be using twice as much Methanol as Gasoline it will provide twice as much cooling due to the additional “heat of vaporization” ---providing significant protection from detonation. In addition it has an Octane rating of 104
One of its best characteristic is that unlike gasoline, you can run it 40% rich without loosing any power. Therefore running a little rich “to be on the safe side” makes really good sense.
It also will provide more energy than gasoline. Although it has less energy per pound or per gallon you will be using twice as much so there will be a net gain.
On the down side it’s more expensive than gasoline and worst of all it is a “high maintenance fuel” by that I mean you will need to flush it out of all the places it touches as a liquid - often. It does leave a nasty residue that can mess up small orifices quickly, if allowed to sit around between weekends.
Good luck
SpeedyPAL
The “proper” i.e., stoich mixtures for gasoline and methanol are as follows:
These are approximate of course.
Gasoline and Air ---- 14.6:1
Gasoline and N2O --- 9.0 :1
Methanol and Air ---- 7.0 :1
Methanol and N2O –- 4.5 :1
Methanol is a great fuel to mix with N20,
Because you will be using twice as much Methanol as Gasoline it will provide twice as much cooling due to the additional “heat of vaporization” ---providing significant protection from detonation. In addition it has an Octane rating of 104
One of its best characteristic is that unlike gasoline, you can run it 40% rich without loosing any power. Therefore running a little rich “to be on the safe side” makes really good sense.
It also will provide more energy than gasoline. Although it has less energy per pound or per gallon you will be using twice as much so there will be a net gain.
On the down side it’s more expensive than gasoline and worst of all it is a “high maintenance fuel” by that I mean you will need to flush it out of all the places it touches as a liquid - often. It does leave a nasty residue that can mess up small orifices quickly, if allowed to sit around between weekends.
Good luck
SpeedyPAL
11-18-2006, 10:01 PM
#16
Originally Posted by cjg454ss
not to correct you but nitrous cools the intake charge but the cylinder temp is even higher with nitrous running, on a supercharger or turbo application. alky cools the intake charge but also cools cylinder temperature. i know i dont need the alky for cylinder temps but was wanting to use it as a type of stand alone fuel system when spraying. akly has a rating of 102+ octane, i was just wondering if anyone has messed with it, subsituting alky instead of gas in a wet kit.
11-19-2006, 09:30 PM
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Nitrous with Alky Tom
I noticed a comment in the copy of a post you attached to your last comment. It mentioned something about the alcohol not cooling the cylinders in an engine using N2O.
I’ve never had the opportunity to measure cylinder temperature, but I have spent many years measuring the temperature of exhaust gases and trust me the way we controlled exhaust gas temperature was to adjust the mixture. It didn’t matter if we were NA, Supercharged or spraying a bit of N2O the way you manage combustion chamber temperature is by adjusting the mixture.
There is no magic to N2O it is simply good air N2O =31% vs. Air=20% O2. The real trick is that you can get N2O into the combustion chamber as a liquid and in that form you can get a lot of it in there. Of course there were some MB engines running 90pounds of boost at Indy a few years back so they were getting a bunch of air born O2 in there also.
But I digress.
High octane gasoline does not outperform regular octane gasoline, nor dose it prevent engine deposits from forming, neither dose it do anything to remove them, nor does it do anything to keep the engine cleaner. Consumers should select the lowest octane grade at which the car's engine runs without knocking.
Occasional light knocking or pinging won't harm the engine, and doesn't indicate a need for higher octane. On the other hand, a heavy or persistent knock will result in engine damage. And you should never operate the engine at WOT with any sign of detonation.
Now to the real answer to your question.
Methanol’s energy content is only 45% that of gasoline (75% of ethanol) by volume.
Gasoline = 30 megajoules/litre,
Ethanol = 22-23 megajoules/litre,
Methanol = 16 megajoules/litre.
Knowing the above information, why would you ever choose to run Methanol.
Cost is not the reason --- I pay $71 for 5gal of 112 Octane Racing Gas and I have paid $72 for 5gal of racing Methanol. I’ve not used any ethanol – yet. So why is alchol used by so many racing organizations? Its safer than Gasoline!!!
Here are some examples.
Currently, the Indy Racing League uses pure methanol (M100). In 2006, the IRL will switch to a 10% ethanol / 90% methanol (M90 or E10) mix, before switching to an all-ethanol mix (E100) in 2007.
Ethanol and methanol both have advantages and disadvantages over fossil fuels, such as petrol and diesel. For instance, ethanol can run at a much higher compression ratio without octane-boosting additives its octane rating is 129 as opposed to approximately 91 for ordinary petrol. It burns more completely because ethanol molecules contain oxygen; carbon monoxide emissions can be 80-90% lower than for fossil-fuelled engines[
However, ethanol is degrading to some plastic or rubber parts of fuel delivery systems designed to use petrol, and has 37% less energy per litre than petrol.
Methanol is even more corrosive and its energy per liter is 55% lower than that of petrol. High compression ratios and corrosion-resistant materials can overcome these issues, but require extensive engine modification.
Methanol has also been proposed as a fuel of the future. There has been extensive use of methanol fuel in Funny Cars for years, and it has been the fuel of Indy car racing in North America since 1965.
Ethanol is already being used extensively as a fuel additive, but the use of ethanol fuel alone or as part of a mix with gasoline is increasing. In 2007, the Indy Racing League will use ethanol as its exclusive fuel, after 40 years of using methanol
So to answer you question Why not run 100+ Octane petrol in a stand alone N2O system? My answer ---- why not indeed. Why would anyone given the correct information choose to use alchol as a fuel.
I know I did but that was a long time ago when I simply didn’t know any better. Then again, I converted a 500inch 1976 Cady to propane during the first gas crisis, but that was quickly removed when I discovered the low amount of energy per liter that it contained.
Sorry for the long post.
Regards
SpeedyPAL
I noticed a comment in the copy of a post you attached to your last comment. It mentioned something about the alcohol not cooling the cylinders in an engine using N2O.
I’ve never had the opportunity to measure cylinder temperature, but I have spent many years measuring the temperature of exhaust gases and trust me the way we controlled exhaust gas temperature was to adjust the mixture. It didn’t matter if we were NA, Supercharged or spraying a bit of N2O the way you manage combustion chamber temperature is by adjusting the mixture.
There is no magic to N2O it is simply good air N2O =31% vs. Air=20% O2. The real trick is that you can get N2O into the combustion chamber as a liquid and in that form you can get a lot of it in there. Of course there were some MB engines running 90pounds of boost at Indy a few years back so they were getting a bunch of air born O2 in there also.
But I digress.
High octane gasoline does not outperform regular octane gasoline, nor dose it prevent engine deposits from forming, neither dose it do anything to remove them, nor does it do anything to keep the engine cleaner. Consumers should select the lowest octane grade at which the car's engine runs without knocking.
Occasional light knocking or pinging won't harm the engine, and doesn't indicate a need for higher octane. On the other hand, a heavy or persistent knock will result in engine damage. And you should never operate the engine at WOT with any sign of detonation.
Now to the real answer to your question.
Methanol’s energy content is only 45% that of gasoline (75% of ethanol) by volume.
Gasoline = 30 megajoules/litre,
Ethanol = 22-23 megajoules/litre,
Methanol = 16 megajoules/litre.
Knowing the above information, why would you ever choose to run Methanol.
Cost is not the reason --- I pay $71 for 5gal of 112 Octane Racing Gas and I have paid $72 for 5gal of racing Methanol. I’ve not used any ethanol – yet. So why is alchol used by so many racing organizations? Its safer than Gasoline!!!
Here are some examples.
Currently, the Indy Racing League uses pure methanol (M100). In 2006, the IRL will switch to a 10% ethanol / 90% methanol (M90 or E10) mix, before switching to an all-ethanol mix (E100) in 2007.
Ethanol and methanol both have advantages and disadvantages over fossil fuels, such as petrol and diesel. For instance, ethanol can run at a much higher compression ratio without octane-boosting additives its octane rating is 129 as opposed to approximately 91 for ordinary petrol. It burns more completely because ethanol molecules contain oxygen; carbon monoxide emissions can be 80-90% lower than for fossil-fuelled engines[
However, ethanol is degrading to some plastic or rubber parts of fuel delivery systems designed to use petrol, and has 37% less energy per litre than petrol.
Methanol is even more corrosive and its energy per liter is 55% lower than that of petrol. High compression ratios and corrosion-resistant materials can overcome these issues, but require extensive engine modification.
Methanol has also been proposed as a fuel of the future. There has been extensive use of methanol fuel in Funny Cars for years, and it has been the fuel of Indy car racing in North America since 1965.
Ethanol is already being used extensively as a fuel additive, but the use of ethanol fuel alone or as part of a mix with gasoline is increasing. In 2007, the Indy Racing League will use ethanol as its exclusive fuel, after 40 years of using methanol
So to answer you question Why not run 100+ Octane petrol in a stand alone N2O system? My answer ---- why not indeed. Why would anyone given the correct information choose to use alchol as a fuel.
I know I did but that was a long time ago when I simply didn’t know any better. Then again, I converted a 500inch 1976 Cady to propane during the first gas crisis, but that was quickly removed when I discovered the low amount of energy per liter that it contained.
Sorry for the long post.
Regards
SpeedyPAL
01-24-2007, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SpeedyPAL
High octane gasoline does not outperform regular octane gasoline,
Originally Posted by SpeedyPAL
Occasional light knocking or pinging won't harm the engine, and doesn't indicate a need for higher octane
Last edited by Lythropus; 01-24-2007 at 01:49 AM.
04-09-2007, 12:02 PM
#20
Originally Posted by 00Vette
Do what you wish. But I don't see how alcohol injection would lower combustion temps.
The intent of alcohol injection is to lower intake charge temp that super/turbo chargers increase due to compressing the air. The more air and fuel in a combutstion chamber the hotter the temp will be in the combustion chamber.
I highly doubt anyone has ran alcohol injection in there nitrous application. But who knows!!
The intent of alcohol injection is to lower intake charge temp that super/turbo chargers increase due to compressing the air. The more air and fuel in a combutstion chamber the hotter the temp will be in the combustion chamber.
I highly doubt anyone has ran alcohol injection in there nitrous application. But who knows!!
FYI you are incorrect. guys do run water/alky with n20
