best place for wet nozzle
12-12-2006, 06:20 PM
#21
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nuthin but love for both of y'all man but for what it's worth i think i gotta pic of my nozzle location in my sig link although i haven't tried it out yet it seemed to work ok in the same location on my lt-1
12-12-2006, 06:28 PM
#22
Originally Posted by BadAssFast
At the risk...so rear cyl go lean...no enough to the rear...can't the mixture blow right past the front runners causing them to go lean too?? Sure they can.
Furthermore, there is no proof what so ever that the front two clyinders go lean while spraying, and I challenge any one to prove other wise. When DTE first did the plate for the lsx platform (and they were the first by a couple years), speculation on the internet suggested that it would spray past the first two clyinders. DTE themselves have proved this false. A plenum is a measured volume to supply each clyinder with it's mix when on the intake stroke, and it fills this volume in order to have enough volume for all. this is what we are doing when spraying from a nozzle-filling this volume for use, not spraying to any one cylinder or group of cylinders. Simple physics spell this out.
Robert
Last edited by Robert56@NitrousDirect; 12-12-2006 at 10:02 PM.
12-12-2006, 06:48 PM
#23
Originally Posted by great421
OK, at the risk of getting into the middle of a finger pointing and peter pulling contest...
I'm a new Nitrous user, and I've been reading these info / opinion threads for the last 8 months now with great interest; I want to do things 'right' and not create a big boom in hopes of getting into the 12s (or 11s, 10s, etc..).
So, a couple of months ago, I called Dave's shop with a number of questions, and he (Dave himself) answered each one, told me the pros and cons of the various different set ups (wet / dry / plate / port / 75 HP / 150 HP / stock bottom / forged / etc...) and didn't get off the phone till I had exhausted my entire list of questions. He never spoke down to me, or acted too busy for my follow up questions. Even though I had not spent a dime at his shop, he was willing to help me make the best decision possible.
In fact, he told me that untill I resolved my traction problems, Nitrous would just add to that problem. Though it (Nitrous) might help "up top" he stated that most races were won by the first 60 feet, so he suggested that I not purchase a kit but rather fix my suspension set up first!
That, in my book, speaks volumes.
I don't know Robert, so I cannot say anything good or bad, but I can say that Dave sure treated me like a (well) paying customer, even before I spent any $$$, then (per HIS suggestion!) sent me away from his shop w/o making a Nitrous sale.
Robert may be a good guy, but when I purchase my LT1 125 HP wet plate kit with a progressive controller, it'll be from Dave's shop.
MLE
I'm a new Nitrous user, and I've been reading these info / opinion threads for the last 8 months now with great interest; I want to do things 'right' and not create a big boom in hopes of getting into the 12s (or 11s, 10s, etc..).
So, a couple of months ago, I called Dave's shop with a number of questions, and he (Dave himself) answered each one, told me the pros and cons of the various different set ups (wet / dry / plate / port / 75 HP / 150 HP / stock bottom / forged / etc...) and didn't get off the phone till I had exhausted my entire list of questions. He never spoke down to me, or acted too busy for my follow up questions. Even though I had not spent a dime at his shop, he was willing to help me make the best decision possible.
In fact, he told me that untill I resolved my traction problems, Nitrous would just add to that problem. Though it (Nitrous) might help "up top" he stated that most races were won by the first 60 feet, so he suggested that I not purchase a kit but rather fix my suspension set up first!
That, in my book, speaks volumes.
I don't know Robert, so I cannot say anything good or bad, but I can say that Dave sure treated me like a (well) paying customer, even before I spent any $$$, then (per HIS suggestion!) sent me away from his shop w/o making a Nitrous sale.
Robert may be a good guy, but when I purchase my LT1 125 HP wet plate kit with a progressive controller, it'll be from Dave's shop.
MLE
Oh and if ya don't want to create a big boom, then going dry may be an idea.
Joking, as this is another area that Dave and I disagree.Robert
12-12-2006, 09:26 PM
#24
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Well let's talk mixture distribution to the cylinders. I've been studying a great deal about the Victor Jr and looking at the some Wilson manifolds. Both of these designs, which are quite similar, seem to shorten the pathway of any mixture to the individual cylinders. In a perfect world this is really nice. Velocity of the mixture, for most of the people that will be buying off this information, keeps the WET nitrous system a perfectly good power adder. Robert, you must have the world record number of posts suggesting that wet systems cause problems and that dry is the answer. LOL.
Guitars and Banjos are for pickin' Nitrous is for SPEED!!
Guitars and Banjos are for pickin' Nitrous is for SPEED!!
12-12-2006, 09:31 PM
#25
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Originally Posted by Robert56@NitrousDirect
Simple pyhisics spell this out.
Robert
Robert
Is Physics the correct science disipline or is it fluid dynamics ???
Either way the thread has gotten WAYYY outta hand. Appearently the mods removed the group hug icon, cus i cannot find it...
You guys were doing so well too for a while
Oh well there is always next year's New Years resolutions! 
Beer
12-12-2006, 09:57 PM
#26
Originally Posted by BadAssFast
Well let's talk mixture distribution to the cylinders. I've been studying a great deal about the Victor Jr and looking at the some Wilson manifolds. Both of these designs, which are quite similar, seem to shorten the pathway of any mixture to the individual cylinders. In a perfect world this is really nice. Velocity of the mixture, for most of the people that will be buying off this information, keeps the WET nitrous system a perfectly good power adder. Robert, you must have the world record number of posts suggesting that wet systems cause problems and that dry is the answer. LOL.
Guitars and Banjos are for pickin' Nitrous is for SPEED!!
Guitars and Banjos are for pickin' Nitrous is for SPEED!!
World record for wet vs dry, I will take it.
Wet is fine, however, show me the destruction that we see from wet hits concerning dry? 
Robert
12-12-2006, 10:08 PM
#27
Originally Posted by Beer99C5
LOL thats Physics. Unless maybe your referring to Psychic Miss Cleo guessing where the air is going and how its mixing
Is Physics the correct science disipline or is it fluid dynamics ???
Either way the thread has gotten WAYYY outta hand. Appearently the mods removed the group hug icon, cus i cannot find it...
You guys were doing so well too for a while Oh well there is always next year's New Years resolutions!
Beer
Is Physics the correct science disipline or is it fluid dynamics ???
Either way the thread has gotten WAYYY outta hand. Appearently the mods removed the group hug icon, cus i cannot find it...
You guys were doing so well too for a while
Oh well there is always next year's New Years resolutions! Beer
I do think physics is part of the equation, runner length and runner resistance because of the the bends and corners and such shows where physics can be applied. Actually there is math that'll tell the whole story. Now fluid dynamics is not my area, but likely can also tell the story. Beer, can you get me a date with Psychic Miss Cleo, I want to ask her about the future of dry hits. Robert
12-13-2006, 07:19 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by Robert56@NitrousDirect
World record for wet vs dry, I will take it. Wet is fine, however, show me the destruction that we see from wet hits concerning dry?
Robert
Wet is fine, however, show me the destruction that we see from wet hits concerning dry? Robert
Back to the intakes. We have so many variables to consider when using nitrous in the LS stock style intakes (LS1, LS6, FAST, Holley etc). I'm convinced that nozzles like NXs Shark or Plates like NX or Nitrous Outlet (and i'll only mention what i've used for comparing) do such a good job of mixing and atomizing the n20 fuel mixture, and the velocity of the mixture when it enters the intake will flow sufficiently to each cyl on the average for most users to be unconcerned about the lean/rich condition of each individual cylinder. I certainly agree 100% that anyone using a DP needs to tune that system up and jet each cyl for that motors needs. Suddenly, i'm noit talking about the weekend motorhead that is simply having a blast busting up the egos or EVOs.
12-13-2006, 08:03 AM
#29
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I usually just skim over nitrous threads when Dave and Robert start going at it so I don't know everything that was said but....
I know for a fact Dave did not copy NOS's plate since he and I personally discussed and thought out making one back in 2001. The only problem was, at that time, the Nitrous Outlet was just starting out and did not have the resources to take on a project like that.
One thing I would like to see though is the proof that DTE had that the front cylinders do not receive more nitrous/fuel or go lean while spraying when they built their plate kit. Wouldn't you need to have a wideband and EGT gauge on each header primary to really prove what is being argued over here?
I know for a fact Dave did not copy NOS's plate since he and I personally discussed and thought out making one back in 2001. The only problem was, at that time, the Nitrous Outlet was just starting out and did not have the resources to take on a project like that.
One thing I would like to see though is the proof that DTE had that the front cylinders do not receive more nitrous/fuel or go lean while spraying when they built their plate kit. Wouldn't you need to have a wideband and EGT gauge on each header primary to really prove what is being argued over here?
12-13-2006, 08:49 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by Bad Habit Bird
One thing I would like to see though is the proof that DTE had that the front cylinders do not receive more nitrous/fuel or go lean while spraying when they built their plate kit. Wouldn't you need to have a wideband and EGT gauge on each header primary to really prove what is being argued over here?
Think of it this way. Say you hooked up a direct port to only the rear 2 cyls.
The a/f will read correct and the EGT will read correct. The only difference will be much higher cyl pressure.
The best proof is blown head gaskets on 5-8, from higher cyl pressures in those cyl's, which actually is common.
Vinny
12-13-2006, 09:23 AM
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I was thinking that a WB/EGT wouldn't be able to measure it correctly but thought those would be the only ways you could even come close.
I'm pretty sure you can send more nitrous to the rear cylinders if the nozzle is located too close to the TB and spraying at the back of the intake.
I'm pretty sure you can send more nitrous to the rear cylinders if the nozzle is located too close to the TB and spraying at the back of the intake.
12-13-2006, 09:27 AM
#33
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NX recommends 2-6 inches before the throttle body. This allows the nitrous plume to spread out and slow down. I have never measured the velocity of the nirous discharge itself. But if you have ever spread a Nozzle you can see the first 2 inches is rather aggressive, and at 6" things are really spreading out. Now having the nozzle close to a runner is rather iffy at best. The strength of the discharge will cause a vacuum infront of the nozzle meaning sucking more air. How much do not know. #7 cylinder being lean maybe it is maybe it isn't.
#2 cyliner on a BBC can run into trouble to, but its not lean. HMMMM
So if the nitrous and fuel mixture are slammed past the runners, ( and I think that can happen) then the amount of nitrous and fuel added are going down the other runners. And If #7 runs lean that means more natural air is getting down that runner, which would also mean more nitrous and fuel are getting down that runner. Meaning that cylinder is subjected to high cylinder pressures, more load, more harmonics, then the rest of the cylinders. So by having the nozzle even closer you could be compounding the natural problems of that engine.
I would install your nozzle to the specs of your manufactor. and call it day.
Ricky
#2 cyliner on a BBC can run into trouble to, but its not lean. HMMMM
So if the nitrous and fuel mixture are slammed past the runners, ( and I think that can happen) then the amount of nitrous and fuel added are going down the other runners. And If #7 runs lean that means more natural air is getting down that runner, which would also mean more nitrous and fuel are getting down that runner. Meaning that cylinder is subjected to high cylinder pressures, more load, more harmonics, then the rest of the cylinders. So by having the nozzle even closer you could be compounding the natural problems of that engine.
I would install your nozzle to the specs of your manufactor. and call it day.
Ricky
12-13-2006, 10:19 AM
#34
12-13-2006, 10:41 AM
#35
Ding Ding Ding....
Thank you guys..
This is exactly what I was saying in my first post before I was basically told I was full of ____! And then went into banging on our plate sytems and questioning my word....
For you guys reading along just use alittle common since here. Its simple science...
Dave
Thank you guys..
This is exactly what I was saying in my first post before I was basically told I was full of ____! And then went into banging on our plate sytems and questioning my word....
For you guys reading along just use alittle common since here. Its simple science...
Dave
12-13-2006, 11:40 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
Ding Ding Ding....
Thank you guys..
This is exactly what I was saying in my first post before I was basically told I was full of ____! And then went into banging on our plate sytems and questioning my word....
For you guys reading along just use alittle common since here. Its simple science...
Dave
Thank you guys..
This is exactly what I was saying in my first post before I was basically told I was full of ____! And then went into banging on our plate sytems and questioning my word....
For you guys reading along just use alittle common since here. Its simple science...
Dave
12-13-2006, 12:41 PM
#37
Well the speculation is very good and sounds good. This issue is not nitrous specific, so I think Ricky is closest in actually describing what happens. There are two things happening with #7 and the back cyl inders in geaneral. They have a tendancy to run hotter, and thus my reference earler to adding the ls6 steam tubes to help the hot spot issue. This along with the less than perfect flow dynamics of a couple cylinders leads to detonation read: high cylinder pressures. So adding any amount of nitrous to an allready comprimised clyinder, and if every other parameter isn't perfect we open the door for failure.
Here's the classic problem we see. A zo6 on a 150 wet hit with all the goodies, let go in 3rd gear. I don't know the a/f or the kit, but this was posted last week. I believe it's #8.
Robert
And If #7 runs lean that means more natural air is getting down that runner, which would also mean more nitrous and fuel are getting down that runner. Meaning that cylinder is subjected to high cylinder pressures, more load, more harmonics, then the rest of the cylinders. So by having the nozzle even closer you could be compounding the natural problems of that engine.
Robert
12-13-2006, 12:45 PM
#38
Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
Ding Ding Ding....
Thank you guys..
This is exactly what I was saying in my first post before I was basically told I was full of ____! And then went into banging on our plate sytems and questioning my word....
For you guys reading along just use alittle common since here. Its simple science...
Dave
Thank you guys..
This is exactly what I was saying in my first post before I was basically told I was full of ____! And then went into banging on our plate sytems and questioning my word....
For you guys reading along just use alittle common since here. Its simple science...
Dave
Robert
12-13-2006, 12:54 PM
#39
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C'mon Robert at leat rescale the bohemith photo...quit being an alarmist too. C'mon man. We all understand that there are dangers making cars run faster than they were designed. I think we all understand that we have to be careful.
12-13-2006, 01:14 PM
#40
Originally Posted by BadAssFast
C'mon Robert at leat rescale the bohemith photo...quit being an alarmist too. C'mon man. We all understand that there are dangers making cars run faster than they were designed. I think we all understand that we have to be careful.
How do you rescale, it's a posted pic I copied from another site, the vette forum.
Robert