View Poll Results: Who does Individual Cylinder Tuning on DP Wet hits
Please read the post first and be honest
2
11.76%
Yes, I do Individual Cylinder Tuning on my DP Wet
4
23.53%
No, I do not do Individual Tuning on my DP Wet
3
17.65%
Robert, shut up and go work on your car.
8
47.06%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: Who does Individual Cylinder Tuning on DP Wet
04-04-2008, 08:27 PM
#21
TECH Veteran
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Port Richey
Posts: 4,266
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robert...I used to have a bunch of logs..wet and dry. This is the only screen shot that i still have. I actually GAVE this Alltronics EGT setup to my buddy about 2 years ago. So I have slowly lost bits and pieces of info.
04-05-2008, 08:33 AM
#25
FormerVendor
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Glenolden, PA
Posts: 1,593
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn I love this stuff. running the EGTs would seem to benifit not just tuning for n2o, but also n/a if needed. What would we consider needed, is there a base line % that the pro tuners go by for deciding on adjustments. Seems if the cylinders are only 2% off, any variation in barametric pressure, or humidity and/or other pararameters could change this % to the better, or worse? So how would we determine when adjustments are needed?
Al, I know you said you didn't save any sprayed EGT screen shots, but I swear I saw a dry EGT posting from you sometime back? there is one other site member who saved, IIRC, some DP Dry EGT findings and they were all within 50°. I think the LSx platform seems to have fairly close temps from the get go, compared to other motors, like the SBC that Vinny talked about with the carb.
Anyone have their EGTs recorded and plug readins per cylinder to see a comparason? this would be excellant information for my plug tuning write up that we are working on. Side by side would really be a valuable tool for those of us seeking to go EGT and reading plugs.
I know I plan on getting a full setup, what a great addition to the tuning tool chest.
Oh by the way, I don't think there is any argument here, just some great debating and technical facts, with some speculation which always comes with cutting edge technology. So, I do contend, that the DP Dry would/will be closer with the EGTs (from testing/tuning front inlet dry hits), than a Wet DP setup, who agrees with this speculation? Soon I hope to prove this, and will post any results, good bad or ugly.
Robert
Al, I know you said you didn't save any sprayed EGT screen shots, but I swear I saw a dry EGT posting from you sometime back? there is one other site member who saved, IIRC, some DP Dry EGT findings and they were all within 50°. I think the LSx platform seems to have fairly close temps from the get go, compared to other motors, like the SBC that Vinny talked about with the carb.
Anyone have their EGTs recorded and plug readins per cylinder to see a comparason? this would be excellant information for my plug tuning write up that we are working on. Side by side would really be a valuable tool for those of us seeking to go EGT and reading plugs.
I know I plan on getting a full setup, what a great addition to the tuning tool chest.
Oh by the way, I don't think there is any argument here, just some great debating and technical facts, with some speculation which always comes with cutting edge technology. So, I do contend, that the DP Dry would/will be closer with the EGTs (from testing/tuning front inlet dry hits), than a Wet DP setup, who agrees with this speculation? Soon I hope to prove this, and will post any results, good bad or ugly.
Robert
You know, to really do that test you would have to run Wet and Dry DP on the same day on the same motor. Isnt that against your religion though
Last edited by Mike@HSW; 04-05-2008 at 08:43 AM.
04-05-2008, 11:53 PM
#26
Here's one of the DP Dry SS nozzles, notice no protrusion into air stream, much more efficient than most DP Wet nozzles that stick out into the air stream and become restrictions and disrupt air flow. Also, in this optimum location it aims directly at the intake valve like it should. No wonder the Dry Direct Port has close EGTs (temps), per cylinder, compared to many DP Wet hits that just randomly spray fuel and n2o some where down the runner towards the combustion chamber, and that will not be very volumetric efficient. Some more proof that my speculation, which some have proved already, that the Dry DP will have better, or rather, closer EGTs from the get go and thus the no need for individual cylinder tuning, except maybe the biggest of the big hits. DP Dry A higher Volumetric Efficiency for any given air pump (yep, our motors are just air pumps, lol).
Robert
Robert
04-14-2008, 07:41 PM
#27
9 Second Club
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience with this.........I used to spit head gaskets out with big power. Now I don't and I would have to say it is mainly because of the EGT monitoring system we have. RED ALERT. Just like the graph shows above, ours looks alot like it. (ours shows 1300 degrees on one car and 1500 degrees on the other car. It really depends on where you put them in the pipe and how far away they are. Also depends on cam specs and how much timing is pulled out of the car. In other words the flame front can be hitting the EGT probe and causing it to show high temps. It all depends on what the plugs say. Temps change from vehicle to vehicle which is why I am going to make this point. EGTs don't really mean anything since there is so much room for change. All they told us was that now instead of pulling the plugs everytime we can base our tunning changes on the EGTs. We looked at the plugs for numerous times, shutting the car off after the 1/8, till we got the plugs exactly where we wanted them. We looked at the EGT graph and use that as a target for every pass.
I had a wet fogger and the egts were horrible. Up to 200 degrees off from cylinder to cylinder with jets pilled for 300. This is why anyone using a fogger or a plate with big pills in it should get it flowed by a perfessional (This will mechanically fix distribution problems. They give you all new jet spreads per their flow bench for optimum use)or use a monitoring sytem to watch cylinders, and make the changes with a DFI. I have a big stuff on both cars and one of them has a dry shot (500 pills) and the other has a speedtech plate (350 pills). Both of these cars have different pulse rates for each cylinder to make the distribution perfect. We got our EGTs to read within 25 degrees of each other and now we have not hurt anything on the motor since then. This is the most important thing about a big shot. Forced induction guys don't have to worry near as much becuse they have boost waiting in the intake manifold, it is not sucking. Neither car has big increase in injector flow rate but to get them to where we wanted they had to change. We can take a plug out of any cylinder at any time on either car and it looks perfect. We run 116 Sonoco nitrous blend fuel with NGK 10 plugs.
IMO, if you use a big shot and you do not have one of these, you will push gaskets out and lift ringlands, or even worse. The EGTs are just a helper for the tuning party. I can't even begin to tell you how much they have helped us. Every intake and plate and fogger are different. They all need to be tested or flowed or repaired with a DFI.....You would be crazy IMO to put a fogger on and not know what each one of your cylinders are doing. I got tired of spending money on motor stuff after 800rwhp.....Now I make over 1Krwhp without any problems. Neither car has a single bit of air in the coolant overflow. I check them after every pass and not ever a sound or even a drop of water comes out. Cometics with 1/2in head studs on both motors. One has stock casting 317s and the other car has Dart heads. Anyone pushing water needs to check their plugs very closely (really read the plug and don't be like most douche bags and say "O, that looks rich"....Get a plug reader and check that **** right. This will save all you guys with big shots alot of big money.
BTW, the faster of the 2 cars runs 200 degrees lower EGT temps but the plugs look the same on both cars. Neither car has alot of timing. Timing is what ***** LS1s up.
I had a wet fogger and the egts were horrible. Up to 200 degrees off from cylinder to cylinder with jets pilled for 300. This is why anyone using a fogger or a plate with big pills in it should get it flowed by a perfessional (This will mechanically fix distribution problems. They give you all new jet spreads per their flow bench for optimum use)or use a monitoring sytem to watch cylinders, and make the changes with a DFI. I have a big stuff on both cars and one of them has a dry shot (500 pills) and the other has a speedtech plate (350 pills). Both of these cars have different pulse rates for each cylinder to make the distribution perfect. We got our EGTs to read within 25 degrees of each other and now we have not hurt anything on the motor since then. This is the most important thing about a big shot. Forced induction guys don't have to worry near as much becuse they have boost waiting in the intake manifold, it is not sucking. Neither car has big increase in injector flow rate but to get them to where we wanted they had to change. We can take a plug out of any cylinder at any time on either car and it looks perfect. We run 116 Sonoco nitrous blend fuel with NGK 10 plugs.
IMO, if you use a big shot and you do not have one of these, you will push gaskets out and lift ringlands, or even worse. The EGTs are just a helper for the tuning party. I can't even begin to tell you how much they have helped us. Every intake and plate and fogger are different. They all need to be tested or flowed or repaired with a DFI.....You would be crazy IMO to put a fogger on and not know what each one of your cylinders are doing. I got tired of spending money on motor stuff after 800rwhp.....Now I make over 1Krwhp without any problems. Neither car has a single bit of air in the coolant overflow. I check them after every pass and not ever a sound or even a drop of water comes out. Cometics with 1/2in head studs on both motors. One has stock casting 317s and the other car has Dart heads. Anyone pushing water needs to check their plugs very closely (really read the plug and don't be like most douche bags and say "O, that looks rich"....Get a plug reader and check that **** right. This will save all you guys with big shots alot of big money.
BTW, the faster of the 2 cars runs 200 degrees lower EGT temps but the plugs look the same on both cars. Neither car has alot of timing. Timing is what ***** LS1s up.
04-14-2008, 10:50 PM
#29
My experience with this.........I used to spit head gaskets out with big power. Now I don't and I would have to say it is mainly because of the EGT monitoring system we have. RED ALERT. Just like the graph shows above, ours looks alot like it. (ours shows 1300 degrees on one car and 1500 degrees on the other car. It really depends on where you put them in the pipe and how far away they are. Also depends on cam specs and how much timing is pulled out of the car. In other words the flame front can be hitting the EGT probe and causing it to show high temps. It all depends on what the plugs say. Temps change from vehicle to vehicle which is why I am going to make this point. EGTs don't really mean anything since there is so much room for change. All they told us was that now instead of pulling the plugs everytime we can base our tunning changes on the EGTs. We looked at the plugs for numerous times, shutting the car off after the 1/8, till we got the plugs exactly where we wanted them. We looked at the EGT graph and use that as a target for every pass.
I had a wet fogger and the egts were horrible. Up to 200 degrees off from cylinder to cylinder with jets pilled for 300. This is why anyone using a fogger or a plate with big pills in it should get it flowed by a perfessional (This will mechanically fix distribution problems. They give you all new jet spreads per their flow bench for optimum use)or use a monitoring sytem to watch cylinders, and make the changes with a DFI. I have a big stuff on both cars and one of them has a dry shot (500 pills) and the other has a speedtech plate (350 pills). Both of these cars have different pulse rates for each cylinder to make the distribution perfect. We got our EGTs to read within 25 degrees of each other and now we have not hurt anything on the motor since then. This is the most important thing about a big shot. Forced induction guys don't have to worry near as much becuse they have boost waiting in the intake manifold, it is not sucking. Neither car has big increase in injector flow rate but to get them to where we wanted they had to change. We can take a plug out of any cylinder at any time on either car and it looks perfect. We run 116 Sonoco nitrous blend fuel with NGK 10 plugs.
IMO, if you use a big shot and you do not have one of these, you will push gaskets out and lift ringlands, or even worse. The EGTs are just a helper for the tuning party. I can't even begin to tell you how much they have helped us. Every intake and plate and fogger are different. They all need to be tested or flowed or repaired with a DFI.....You would be crazy IMO to put a fogger on and not know what each one of your cylinders are doing. I got tired of spending money on motor stuff after 800rwhp.....Now I make over 1Krwhp without any problems. Neither car has a single bit of air in the coolant overflow. I check them after every pass and not ever a sound or even a drop of water comes out. Cometics with 1/2in head studs on both motors. One has stock casting 317s and the other car has Dart heads. Anyone pushing water needs to check their plugs very closely (really read the plug and don't be like most douche bags and say "O, that looks rich"....Get a plug reader and check that **** right. This will save all you guys with big shots alot of big money.
BTW, the faster of the 2 cars runs 200 degrees lower EGT temps but the plugs look the same on both cars. Neither car has alot of timing. Timing is what ***** LS1s up.
I had a wet fogger and the egts were horrible. Up to 200 degrees off from cylinder to cylinder with jets pilled for 300. This is why anyone using a fogger or a plate with big pills in it should get it flowed by a perfessional (This will mechanically fix distribution problems. They give you all new jet spreads per their flow bench for optimum use)or use a monitoring sytem to watch cylinders, and make the changes with a DFI. I have a big stuff on both cars and one of them has a dry shot (500 pills) and the other has a speedtech plate (350 pills). Both of these cars have different pulse rates for each cylinder to make the distribution perfect. We got our EGTs to read within 25 degrees of each other and now we have not hurt anything on the motor since then. This is the most important thing about a big shot. Forced induction guys don't have to worry near as much becuse they have boost waiting in the intake manifold, it is not sucking. Neither car has big increase in injector flow rate but to get them to where we wanted they had to change. We can take a plug out of any cylinder at any time on either car and it looks perfect. We run 116 Sonoco nitrous blend fuel with NGK 10 plugs.
IMO, if you use a big shot and you do not have one of these, you will push gaskets out and lift ringlands, or even worse. The EGTs are just a helper for the tuning party. I can't even begin to tell you how much they have helped us. Every intake and plate and fogger are different. They all need to be tested or flowed or repaired with a DFI.....You would be crazy IMO to put a fogger on and not know what each one of your cylinders are doing. I got tired of spending money on motor stuff after 800rwhp.....Now I make over 1Krwhp without any problems. Neither car has a single bit of air in the coolant overflow. I check them after every pass and not ever a sound or even a drop of water comes out. Cometics with 1/2in head studs on both motors. One has stock casting 317s and the other car has Dart heads. Anyone pushing water needs to check their plugs very closely (really read the plug and don't be like most douche bags and say "O, that looks rich"....Get a plug reader and check that **** right. This will save all you guys with big shots alot of big money.
BTW, the faster of the 2 cars runs 200 degrees lower EGT temps but the plugs look the same on both cars. Neither car has alot of timing. Timing is what ***** LS1s up.
CJ,
Great post.. So is it safe to say you read the plugs and individually tune each cylinder if changes need to be made?
Dave
04-20-2008, 02:01 AM
#30
Really good info. The one question I have is where, or rather how, do we choose the location in the pipe. The shop I work with Turbo Tech, yes a site sponsor, and no I don't back door anything with them (not for you CJ), said a certain distance from the exhaust valve. Is this correct, or are they biased towards their mainstay the boosted cars, and we need something different? I had my intake flowed and from the get go with no changes made, in oz/sec (number changed to keep real hit size to myself) the lowest 0.439 and highest 0.441, and this shows equal flow from the get go (average .0439625). I plan to show that there will be no real difference in EGTs from spray to n/a, and prove that the fuel being added upstream somewhere in the intake tract is the real problem with some of the DP Wet hits and varying EGTs, think about why GM has the injectors aimed where they do. I think we are really on the same page tuning wise, as my timing for my mild motor at 14° turns heads and most think it's to little. I did my nitrous tune on top of my n/a tune in almost back to back dyno pulls and lost 50rwhp with the timing pulled. But also made 230rwhp on a 200 pilled shot. So I agree on the lower timing for our motors. Now my normal dry tune does not effect my n/a tune what so ever, but I wanted to see in real life what pulling 13° of timing would do hp wise n/a. Anyway, I think the EGTs will be a great addition to the tool box and really look forward to some testing. You stated the starting EGTs for the wet fogger as 200° off (which also means we would see an a/f problem per spark plug), do you have starting untuned EGT numbers for a Dry DP? If so, where were the nozzle located?
Robert
Robert
My experience with this.........I used to spit head gaskets out with big power. Now I don't and I would have to say it is mainly because of the EGT monitoring system we have. RED ALERT. Just like the graph shows above, ours looks alot like it. (ours shows 1300 degrees on one car and 1500 degrees on the other car. It really depends on where you put them in the pipe and how far away they are. Also depends on cam specs and how much timing is pulled out of the car. In other words the flame front can be hitting the EGT probe and causing it to show high temps. It all depends on what the plugs say. Temps change from vehicle to vehicle which is why I am going to make this point. EGTs don't really mean anything since there is so much room for change. All they told us was that now instead of pulling the plugs everytime we can base our tunning changes on the EGTs. We looked at the plugs for numerous times, shutting the car off after the 1/8, till we got the plugs exactly where we wanted them. We looked at the EGT graph and use that as a target for every pass.
I had a wet fogger and the egts were horrible. Up to 200 degrees off from cylinder to cylinder with jets pilled for 300. This is why anyone using a fogger or a plate with big pills in it should get it flowed by a perfessional (This will mechanically fix distribution problems. They give you all new jet spreads per their flow bench for optimum use)or use a monitoring sytem to watch cylinders, and make the changes with a DFI. I have a big stuff on both cars and one of them has a dry shot (500 pills) and the other has a speedtech plate (350 pills). Both of these cars have different pulse rates for each cylinder to make the distribution perfect. We got our EGTs to read within 25 degrees of each other and now we have not hurt anything on the motor since then. This is the most important thing about a big shot. Forced induction guys don't have to worry near as much becuse they have boost waiting in the intake manifold, it is not sucking. Neither car has big increase in injector flow rate but to get them to where we wanted they had to change. We can take a plug out of any cylinder at any time on either car and it looks perfect. We run 116 Sonoco nitrous blend fuel with NGK 10 plugs.
IMO, if you use a big shot and you do not have one of these, you will push gaskets out and lift ringlands, or even worse. The EGTs are just a helper for the tuning party. I can't even begin to tell you how much they have helped us. Every intake and plate and fogger are different. They all need to be tested or flowed or repaired with a DFI.....You would be crazy IMO to put a fogger on and not know what each one of your cylinders are doing. I got tired of spending money on motor stuff after 800rwhp.....Now I make over 1Krwhp without any problems. Neither car has a single bit of air in the coolant overflow. I check them after every pass and not ever a sound or even a drop of water comes out. Cometics with 1/2in head studs on both motors. One has stock casting 317s and the other car has Dart heads. Anyone pushing water needs to check their plugs very closely (really read the plug and don't be like most douche bags and say "O, that looks rich"....Get a plug reader and check that **** right. This will save all you guys with big shots alot of big money.
BTW, the faster of the 2 cars runs 200 degrees lower EGT temps but the plugs look the same on both cars. Neither car has alot of timing. Timing is what ***** LS1s up.
I had a wet fogger and the egts were horrible. Up to 200 degrees off from cylinder to cylinder with jets pilled for 300. This is why anyone using a fogger or a plate with big pills in it should get it flowed by a perfessional (This will mechanically fix distribution problems. They give you all new jet spreads per their flow bench for optimum use)or use a monitoring sytem to watch cylinders, and make the changes with a DFI. I have a big stuff on both cars and one of them has a dry shot (500 pills) and the other has a speedtech plate (350 pills). Both of these cars have different pulse rates for each cylinder to make the distribution perfect. We got our EGTs to read within 25 degrees of each other and now we have not hurt anything on the motor since then. This is the most important thing about a big shot. Forced induction guys don't have to worry near as much becuse they have boost waiting in the intake manifold, it is not sucking. Neither car has big increase in injector flow rate but to get them to where we wanted they had to change. We can take a plug out of any cylinder at any time on either car and it looks perfect. We run 116 Sonoco nitrous blend fuel with NGK 10 plugs.
IMO, if you use a big shot and you do not have one of these, you will push gaskets out and lift ringlands, or even worse. The EGTs are just a helper for the tuning party. I can't even begin to tell you how much they have helped us. Every intake and plate and fogger are different. They all need to be tested or flowed or repaired with a DFI.....You would be crazy IMO to put a fogger on and not know what each one of your cylinders are doing. I got tired of spending money on motor stuff after 800rwhp.....Now I make over 1Krwhp without any problems. Neither car has a single bit of air in the coolant overflow. I check them after every pass and not ever a sound or even a drop of water comes out. Cometics with 1/2in head studs on both motors. One has stock casting 317s and the other car has Dart heads. Anyone pushing water needs to check their plugs very closely (really read the plug and don't be like most douche bags and say "O, that looks rich"....Get a plug reader and check that **** right. This will save all you guys with big shots alot of big money.
BTW, the faster of the 2 cars runs 200 degrees lower EGT temps but the plugs look the same on both cars. Neither car has alot of timing. Timing is what ***** LS1s up.
04-20-2008, 09:06 PM
#31
9 Second Club
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have the nitrous entering about 3.5ft infront of the TB in a tube. It has a tiny, tiny rich spot and then leans right up and runs clean the hole way through. I think the tune up on motor was a bit lower EGTs, but not much. As far as how close to install them, the RedAlert system has directions on how close to install them. I gave my headers to a local chassis chop to weld the bungs on. I am switching to a ARH header and they will be installing the EGT bungs on the bottom of the tube. This keeps them out of my way. Both cars are on the top right now. I hate dealing with them, they are in my way alot.
