PLUG GAP w/ HSW kit
You called at 5:54 yesterday and we close at 6. It's not possible to return all the phone calls instantly due to the high call volume we have, they are returned in the order they are received. We offer a support ticket system for after hours/holiday support @ http://www.harrisspeedworks.com/support
We posted a spark plug gap post a while back; looks like a Moderator moved it to the master sticky:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....98&postcount=7
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....16&postcount=8
BTW, to answer your question, there is not a TR7 unless you mean the TR7IX. In that case do not modify the gap out of the box.
EDIT, Wait a minute, you called at 5:54 yesterday and then made this post at Yesterday, 06:06 PM?!?
Matt
We posted a spark plug gap post a while back; looks like a Moderator moved it to the master sticky:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....98&postcount=7
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....16&postcount=8
BTW, to answer your question, there is not a TR7 unless you mean the TR7IX. In that case do not modify the gap out of the box.
EDIT, Wait a minute, you called at 5:54 yesterday and then made this post at Yesterday, 06:06 PM?!?
Matt
As for Dave @ N20 daves, this guy has went out of his way to help me with an issue on a kit I never even bought from him, and today they answered first ring when I called and took care of all my questions. But I promise I will do all my bussines with Dave from here on out. Also please show me where in the above stickeys you linked for me, it answers my question?
Matt maybee your answering machine should say:
" Sorry we can not get to you at this moment, since we experiance such a large volume of calls through out the day, leave your name and #, and we will contact you in the order the calls were recieved"
Maybee if I would have called on 4th of July I would have had better luck.
Last edited by OldskoolRcr; Jul 9, 2008 at 05:19 PM.
Actually, service after the sale is a very big deal. The HSW guys have been extremely responsive to every single question I've asked (and I've asked a bunch!). They even responded to my trouble ticket on a Holiday weekend.
This post reeks of setup. Another one of those "Dave's Nitro Outlet is great and no one else answers their phones". Reader beware.
This post reeks of setup. Another one of those "Dave's Nitro Outlet is great and no one else answers their phones". Reader beware.
Why would I waste my time or yours as we talked this morning when you called?!? Are we going to talk about the same thing over again? Great, but you didn't purchase the kit from us either; you bought a used kit from someone. A used kit that was missing hardware that we helped you out on to make complete. Yes, maybe if you called on the 4th you could have received a quicker response, better then calling 5 minutes before we close and having to leave a message and then 5 minutes latter starting a post on LS1tech.com saying we don't return phone calls...
Your more then welcome to try the other vendors on this site, I’m sure they work 24 hours a day.
Matt
Your more then welcome to try the other vendors on this site, I’m sure they work 24 hours a day.
Matt
HAVE YOU CONTACTED ME YET, since you say you return your calls? Please dont waste your time or mine by doing so.
As for Dave @ N20 daves, this guy has went out of his way to help me with an issue on a kit I never even bought from him, and today they answered first ring when I called and took care of all my questions. But I promise I will do all my bussines with Dave from here on out.
Matt maybee your answering machine should say " Sorry we can not get to you at this moment, since we experiance such a large volume of calls through out the day, leave your name and #, and we will contact you in the order the calls were recieved" Maybee if I would have called on 4th of July I would have had better luck.
As for Dave @ N20 daves, this guy has went out of his way to help me with an issue on a kit I never even bought from him, and today they answered first ring when I called and took care of all my questions. But I promise I will do all my bussines with Dave from here on out.
Matt maybee your answering machine should say " Sorry we can not get to you at this moment, since we experiance such a large volume of calls through out the day, leave your name and #, and we will contact you in the order the calls were recieved" Maybee if I would have called on 4th of July I would have had better luck.
Since there seems to be some info missing here, I will go ahead and post the PM's I was recieving and sent to OldSkoolRcr so that this post has all of the facts.
Recieved July 8, 2008 8:40 PM from OldSkoolRcr:
"I would truely like to know why you guys at HSW have no problem selling your kits, but when someone needs tech info, I call and get put on hold for 10 mins, then leave 2 messages and #'s, at which your voice mail says you will return shortly, I wonder if that meens within the next week? Since I have waisted my time with this PM I might as well ask my tech question and see if it gets answered before the weekend when I got to the track. I am running your HSW kit on my LS2 Camaro, also your stand alone system, dam theres about $1200.00 I have spent on 1 car alone, Not including the purge kit, your bottle blanket kit etc. What do you recomend gapping the TR7 plugs for 200/225 shot. I think you need to either hire some help or actually return your calls as you say (shortly), It is RUDE, and directs your customers to buy from other vendors. My mistake, I am building 2 other Camaros and need complete kits and stand alone systems for those also, Maybee N20 Dave returns his calls?"
Replied July 9, 2008 11:16am from Nick@HSW
"Ed,
I just pulled up your info in our system and it looks like between you and George there was a stand alone, purge, heater, hoses, throttle linkage bracket, and some jets totalling $916.38. I just want to verify all of these numbers with you because you state you spent $1200 minus heater, purge, etc. What I dont see listed is a nitrous kit...Which kit are you running? If you give me a name I can look it up in our system...Reason being is I want to verify that it is capable of reaching your goals.
Concerning the plugs, there is no TR7 plug. There is only an irridium TR7IX plug, is this the one you are reffering to? What is your whole set up, as there is more involved in selecting a spark plug based on nitrous use alone.
Concerning the not returning phone calls...Matt addressed this in your post. We have a phone data system that records inbound calls, messages, etc. and we can find two calls at 5:54pm and 5:56pm est from your area code. We close at 6pm eastern time. Due to the volume of calls, we cannot retrieve messages and return a call that was made 6 minutes prior to closing time.
Please get back to me so that we can address your questions. Thanks.
Nick"
Recieved July 9, 2008 6:01pm from OldSkoolRcr:
"It is a Brute Force Kit, I have upgraded to the large noids and lines to spray the bigger jets and a stand alone, also the TR7IX should never be used in any system in my opinion, you should know that, the plugs I have are NGK BR7EF (stock number 3346) These are a 7 heat range plug non-protruded tip, I called this morning asked for tech and once again was waiting, So I called N20 Dave, first ring he answers and took care of all my questions and concerns weather it was $1200 or $50.00 should not matter one bit, as for the time frame for answering calls, I also run a large Electrical Co. here in Iowa, yes the Flooded area, and every single call that comes in weather we answer or voice mail gets it gets answered that day, we do not watch the clock and run out the door at 5:00, these are my customers. And every call counts, and every call is returned within 1/2 hr MAX or I replace the person answering the phone. I was at the dyno when I called and needed the info, So instead of jepordizing a motor, I left. Nothing pisses me off more then being put on hold for a long period of time, just shows how important I am to you and your Co. I did not know N20 Dave sold stand alone kits along with his N20 kits, but now I do, and he has just got my bussiness for the other 2 Camaros I have in my shop. You may think I am being unreasonable but I am a bussiness man my self, and like to be treated like I treat my customers. What get me the most is I called again late morning, and asked for sales, and instead of just getting an answer or transfered to Tech, I got the BS run around about Oh your the guy from LS1 Tech huh, well Nick PMed you, and I said I dont care just answer the question, and again nothing, so I hung up. I may only be one person spending $900.00, but word of mouth is your best advertisement. Like I said MY MISTAKE, I dont take long to learn things, But what gets me the most, Is STILL NO RETURN CALL!!!!! in the time it took you to PM me you could have called 3 times and answered the question. WTF! I dont regret buying from you in the past, But I will never buy from you again. But oh well just a old $900.00 worth of sales. Have a nice day."
Recieved July 8, 2008 8:40 PM from OldSkoolRcr:
"I would truely like to know why you guys at HSW have no problem selling your kits, but when someone needs tech info, I call and get put on hold for 10 mins, then leave 2 messages and #'s, at which your voice mail says you will return shortly, I wonder if that meens within the next week? Since I have waisted my time with this PM I might as well ask my tech question and see if it gets answered before the weekend when I got to the track. I am running your HSW kit on my LS2 Camaro, also your stand alone system, dam theres about $1200.00 I have spent on 1 car alone, Not including the purge kit, your bottle blanket kit etc. What do you recomend gapping the TR7 plugs for 200/225 shot. I think you need to either hire some help or actually return your calls as you say (shortly), It is RUDE, and directs your customers to buy from other vendors. My mistake, I am building 2 other Camaros and need complete kits and stand alone systems for those also, Maybee N20 Dave returns his calls?"
Replied July 9, 2008 11:16am from Nick@HSW
"Ed,
I just pulled up your info in our system and it looks like between you and George there was a stand alone, purge, heater, hoses, throttle linkage bracket, and some jets totalling $916.38. I just want to verify all of these numbers with you because you state you spent $1200 minus heater, purge, etc. What I dont see listed is a nitrous kit...Which kit are you running? If you give me a name I can look it up in our system...Reason being is I want to verify that it is capable of reaching your goals.
Concerning the plugs, there is no TR7 plug. There is only an irridium TR7IX plug, is this the one you are reffering to? What is your whole set up, as there is more involved in selecting a spark plug based on nitrous use alone.
Concerning the not returning phone calls...Matt addressed this in your post. We have a phone data system that records inbound calls, messages, etc. and we can find two calls at 5:54pm and 5:56pm est from your area code. We close at 6pm eastern time. Due to the volume of calls, we cannot retrieve messages and return a call that was made 6 minutes prior to closing time.
Please get back to me so that we can address your questions. Thanks.
Nick"
Recieved July 9, 2008 6:01pm from OldSkoolRcr:
"It is a Brute Force Kit, I have upgraded to the large noids and lines to spray the bigger jets and a stand alone, also the TR7IX should never be used in any system in my opinion, you should know that, the plugs I have are NGK BR7EF (stock number 3346) These are a 7 heat range plug non-protruded tip, I called this morning asked for tech and once again was waiting, So I called N20 Dave, first ring he answers and took care of all my questions and concerns weather it was $1200 or $50.00 should not matter one bit, as for the time frame for answering calls, I also run a large Electrical Co. here in Iowa, yes the Flooded area, and every single call that comes in weather we answer or voice mail gets it gets answered that day, we do not watch the clock and run out the door at 5:00, these are my customers. And every call counts, and every call is returned within 1/2 hr MAX or I replace the person answering the phone. I was at the dyno when I called and needed the info, So instead of jepordizing a motor, I left. Nothing pisses me off more then being put on hold for a long period of time, just shows how important I am to you and your Co. I did not know N20 Dave sold stand alone kits along with his N20 kits, but now I do, and he has just got my bussiness for the other 2 Camaros I have in my shop. You may think I am being unreasonable but I am a bussiness man my self, and like to be treated like I treat my customers. What get me the most is I called again late morning, and asked for sales, and instead of just getting an answer or transfered to Tech, I got the BS run around about Oh your the guy from LS1 Tech huh, well Nick PMed you, and I said I dont care just answer the question, and again nothing, so I hung up. I may only be one person spending $900.00, but word of mouth is your best advertisement. Like I said MY MISTAKE, I dont take long to learn things, But what gets me the most, Is STILL NO RETURN CALL!!!!! in the time it took you to PM me you could have called 3 times and answered the question. WTF! I dont regret buying from you in the past, But I will never buy from you again. But oh well just a old $900.00 worth of sales. Have a nice day."
Replied July 9, 2008 6:39pm from Nick@HSW
"Iridium gets a very bad rap it seems. Most of the time people see the electrode and automatically assume since it is thin and narrow it cannot withstand heat. This is simply not true. First what one needs to realize is that the center electrodes primary duty is not to absorb heat and dissipate that energy. This is the primary function of the insulator, threads, head etc. Does this mean that the center electrode does not get hot, no, but its primary function is not to dissipate heat. 90% of the time the reason for a plug failure is incorrect heat range selection, gappage, over-useage, air quality or other mechanical failures. I can honestly say I have never pulled a plug to see the center electrode melted, its normally the ground strap that fails first. Second, it all does come down to the material. We’re talking about thermodynamics…how can you not take into consideration what type of material it is? That would be like a civil not taking into account the weight of the bridge itself while calculating load capability.
The melting point for each of these materials is completely different. Iridium is at 4471*F and Copper is at 1984.32*F. Another key item to look at for the materials is heat of fusion. This is the amount of heat absorbed by a unit mass at its melting point in order to induce phase change. The higher this number the more energy required to phase change the solid to a liquid. Copper is 13.05kJ/mol and Iridium is 26.1kJ/mol. I really think that speaks for itself.
I also think the easiest way to illustrate this would be to take a look at fourier’s law.
-Qdot = -kA(dT/L)
Where Qdot is heat transfer per unit time
k = thermal conductivity of the material********
A = heat transfer area
dT = difference in temperature across material
L = material thickness*********
For simplicity sake lets concentrate on the two factors that are of concern in this thread. Material and thickness. What drives this equation is mostly that anyways. k for copper is 398 W/m K @ 225*C and iridium is 147 W/m K @ 225*C. What this, along with heat of fusion, illustrates most is the ability for a material to carry a smaller L to obtain sufficient qdot. Its simple physics really…if a material has this innate ability to displace energy, why can’t it be a smaller diameter? Why not take advantage of spark quality by utilizing an exotic material that allows for a smaller electrode?
Now please do not take this the wrong way…in no way am I saying a is better than b, because I’m not. I’m simply stating facts of material. I read by someone that if you were to heat up a x” thick piece of steel vs. a xx” thick steel which will hold up longer. In my opinion that proves nothing except for that particular material (steel) L matters. You’re taking two items of the same exact material! If you were to take a xx” thick piece of copper vs. a x” thick piece of iridium and super heat them to 1800*F I will tell you what the outcome will be and its all proven right above. I guess I just want people to see some factual information concerning the materials and let them judge for themselves what is better and I hope nobody sees this as an attack on other peoples opinions. Because its not, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. I will state this though.
Our shop truck routinely sees 15lbs of boost and two stages of nitrous. The plugs that reside in this motor are Denso Iridiums (which happen to have the finest thickness electrode of the bunch) and cylinder temperatures become outrageously high very quickly with the complex nature and behavior of forced induction and nitrous. The addition of this plug allowed me to run a larger gap without blow out, have a great idle quality and while our plug changes are just as frequent as copper, the plugs appear to be in better fashion. So just to initiate some friendly conversation I ask prove to me why Iridium is a poor choice in a nitrous application?
On a side note, I would not consider longevity to be the best quality of Iridium…I would have to say the improved spark control and energy consumption are the two leading benefits.
Now on a side note, I did not recommend iridium plugs to you. You stated that you are running TR7 spark plugs...these do not exist. I was assuming you meant TR7IX.
Concerning your phone conversations and messages...I believe you spoke with matt this morning? I was in his office at the time and do not remember him putting you on hold?!?!? Was there anything else that you forgot to go over with him? I would also double check that you have everything required for that size shot...as our records indicate that you did not purchase them from us.
Ok, so you're asking that we return phone calls within a 1/2 hour max...you posted your LS1tech.com thread within 10 minutes after leaving a message. You didn't even give anyone here an opportunity...you just jumped the gun. You didn't recieve a return call because your question was already answered on tech. And since you felt it was necessary to find an answer on tech, we felt that was the best place for you to recieve your answer.
Again, I hope that I have fully answered your questions. I'm sure you will be happy with whichever vendor you should choose to do business with. Have a nice day too!
Nick"
"Iridium gets a very bad rap it seems. Most of the time people see the electrode and automatically assume since it is thin and narrow it cannot withstand heat. This is simply not true. First what one needs to realize is that the center electrodes primary duty is not to absorb heat and dissipate that energy. This is the primary function of the insulator, threads, head etc. Does this mean that the center electrode does not get hot, no, but its primary function is not to dissipate heat. 90% of the time the reason for a plug failure is incorrect heat range selection, gappage, over-useage, air quality or other mechanical failures. I can honestly say I have never pulled a plug to see the center electrode melted, its normally the ground strap that fails first. Second, it all does come down to the material. We’re talking about thermodynamics…how can you not take into consideration what type of material it is? That would be like a civil not taking into account the weight of the bridge itself while calculating load capability.
The melting point for each of these materials is completely different. Iridium is at 4471*F and Copper is at 1984.32*F. Another key item to look at for the materials is heat of fusion. This is the amount of heat absorbed by a unit mass at its melting point in order to induce phase change. The higher this number the more energy required to phase change the solid to a liquid. Copper is 13.05kJ/mol and Iridium is 26.1kJ/mol. I really think that speaks for itself.
I also think the easiest way to illustrate this would be to take a look at fourier’s law.
-Qdot = -kA(dT/L)
Where Qdot is heat transfer per unit time
k = thermal conductivity of the material********
A = heat transfer area
dT = difference in temperature across material
L = material thickness*********
For simplicity sake lets concentrate on the two factors that are of concern in this thread. Material and thickness. What drives this equation is mostly that anyways. k for copper is 398 W/m K @ 225*C and iridium is 147 W/m K @ 225*C. What this, along with heat of fusion, illustrates most is the ability for a material to carry a smaller L to obtain sufficient qdot. Its simple physics really…if a material has this innate ability to displace energy, why can’t it be a smaller diameter? Why not take advantage of spark quality by utilizing an exotic material that allows for a smaller electrode?
Now please do not take this the wrong way…in no way am I saying a is better than b, because I’m not. I’m simply stating facts of material. I read by someone that if you were to heat up a x” thick piece of steel vs. a xx” thick steel which will hold up longer. In my opinion that proves nothing except for that particular material (steel) L matters. You’re taking two items of the same exact material! If you were to take a xx” thick piece of copper vs. a x” thick piece of iridium and super heat them to 1800*F I will tell you what the outcome will be and its all proven right above. I guess I just want people to see some factual information concerning the materials and let them judge for themselves what is better and I hope nobody sees this as an attack on other peoples opinions. Because its not, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. I will state this though.
Our shop truck routinely sees 15lbs of boost and two stages of nitrous. The plugs that reside in this motor are Denso Iridiums (which happen to have the finest thickness electrode of the bunch) and cylinder temperatures become outrageously high very quickly with the complex nature and behavior of forced induction and nitrous. The addition of this plug allowed me to run a larger gap without blow out, have a great idle quality and while our plug changes are just as frequent as copper, the plugs appear to be in better fashion. So just to initiate some friendly conversation I ask prove to me why Iridium is a poor choice in a nitrous application?
On a side note, I would not consider longevity to be the best quality of Iridium…I would have to say the improved spark control and energy consumption are the two leading benefits.
Now on a side note, I did not recommend iridium plugs to you. You stated that you are running TR7 spark plugs...these do not exist. I was assuming you meant TR7IX.
Concerning your phone conversations and messages...I believe you spoke with matt this morning? I was in his office at the time and do not remember him putting you on hold?!?!? Was there anything else that you forgot to go over with him? I would also double check that you have everything required for that size shot...as our records indicate that you did not purchase them from us.
Ok, so you're asking that we return phone calls within a 1/2 hour max...you posted your LS1tech.com thread within 10 minutes after leaving a message. You didn't even give anyone here an opportunity...you just jumped the gun. You didn't recieve a return call because your question was already answered on tech. And since you felt it was necessary to find an answer on tech, we felt that was the best place for you to recieve your answer.
Again, I hope that I have fully answered your questions. I'm sure you will be happy with whichever vendor you should choose to do business with. Have a nice day too!
Nick"
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Brett Foote I think you should take the time it took you to copy and paste all this BS, and turn it into 2 pages of nothing and direct it towards those phone calls you dont return because your so busy. I bet you could have answered at least 2 calls. Also never seen anyone get so defensive over spark plug gap, maybee you guys **** more people off and they just dont say anything. Like I said in my PM get over it, be a professional company and move on. Oh and yes I bought a used HSW kit from a member here because I thought it was a good product and the customer service was supposed to be great, And just to get it straight I bought Jets from you, I needed nothing else to complete the kit, But the throttle bracket you sold me at that time and said would work, did not and went in the trash in the origanil package.
We dont return phone calls, got it, check, thanks. If you are that impatient of a person that you make a call at 5:56 and then complain on a tech thread about not receiving a return call 10 minutes after making it, then you would be better suited purchasing from another vendor.
goodluck with whatever company you end up with, i am sure they will love having your business....
You have the answer to your question i see no more technical information coming out of this thread and ask if one of the mods could close it. We have more phone calls not to return and dont have time to deal with these outlandish and ridiculous accusations
goodluck with whatever company you end up with, i am sure they will love having your business....
You have the answer to your question i see no more technical information coming out of this thread and ask if one of the mods could close it. We have more phone calls not to return and dont have time to deal with these outlandish and ridiculous accusations
Thank you for your concern, I will purchase from another vendor, and I am sure they would love having my bussiness, because thats what it is BUSSINESS, you have taken it personall, and you continue to cry about me making a post. So since your so busy and not returning calls, dont worrie about this post, like I said before and move on, again another call goes unanswered due to you waisting ridiculous time replying to this post. Point proven! Everyone is intitled to there opinions, I am sorry mine offended you so BAD, sometimes the truth hurts. Good day!
Last edited by OldskoolRcr; Jul 10, 2008 at 06:49 AM.
