I've gotten involved in a thread in the Dyno forum that I think has gotten pretty interesting. Here's the link: https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/260445-tsp-233-239-stock-heads-dyno-results.html . I'm interested to know what those here think about this issue. So, read the thread if ya please! Then you can tell me whether or not my head is up my ***!

 

Interesting thread. I don't think you're out of line or have your head up your ***. I think it's valid to ask why the numbers are lower than advertised? Maybe they designed that cam for X intake, or X exhaust. (for instance, more exhaust back pressure increases torque, as will certian intake runner designs) Or maybe they ported their heads for the test? Funny they haven't said anything.

But I recall the saying "Make it lean for good dyno #s & rich for good track times." Also dyno #s do not show everything. For instance I make more hp & tq with my 'whimpy little Hot Cam'. My 12.40 track times however suck! Mostly due to my stock converter & 3900 race weight.

IMO his tq bands looks normal. Reminds me of mine, only a littel lower. My tq hits 350 @ 3500rpm, goes to 371 @ 4750, back down to 350 @ 5500 and falls off to 320 @ 6400. And my hp hits the 390 mark around 6000 & flattens out. But I do have 1.8 rockers, an LSX intake, a ported TB & PPC headers with a 3" y-pipe (w/cats). All added more power up top for me. And my a/f is a flat 13 across the rpm band.

Jason, have you dynoed your 231/237 (?) yet?

 

I'm thinking that you have some good points, however, the points about getting the full bolt-ons before comparing your numbers to TSPs numbers are valid.

It's proven that an air lid is worth about 10 hp (possibly more with a more aggressive setup, like your cam or mine), a ported/polished throttle body is worth about 10 hp (again with an aggressive cam like yours or mine), and a pulley can be worth 5-10hp. I'd be really surprised if you added those things and didn't immediately gain about 20-30 hp on the dyno with your setup.

Then put in a good tune for another 20 hp depending on how far off your tune is now, and bingo, there's the 40 hp or so that you're missing from TSPs numbers. I was running off the canned Predator tune when I first put my cam in, and my car ran like ***... I wouldn't be surprised if I picked up over 20 rwhp after putting the custom tune in. The car felt that much better...

I'll have to get my car dynoed soon and I'll post my numbers up... all things being equal, our setups should be within 10 rwhp of each other. Mine will be lower than yours though because of my 12 bolt, 4.11 gears, and my heavy Denny driveshaft.

 

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. The specs on the car that pulled 417/402 for TSP were pretty vague. TSP seems to be getting great TQ numbers with those 2 cams, but every third party dyno I can find shows a weak TQ curve comparatively. I want to know why. What are we missing?

What seems to have fallen by the wayside is that I stated more than once in that thread that I did not expect to duplicate TSP's numbers with my setup. In fact, I went so far as to say that I think my HP numbers are pretty much where I would expect them to be. It's the TQ that seems to be inexplicably low. And not just for me, but even for full bolt-on cars with a tune.

When I port my TB, add a lid, and get the tune nailed down, I have no doubt that my HP will be very close to what was posted by TSP. At this point, I just don't see how I'm supposed to make up all that TQ I'm missing...

 

I have to agree with jason on this, i would think that if you opened up the intake track i little bit with a lid and throttle body you would see better numbers. mybee not tsp's numbers, but you have to remember their are other things that go into dyno numbers, tire pressure, air temp,humidity, and so on. From what i have read not many people have seen the same results from any combo that the vendors put out. does that mean it is a bad cam or set of heads no. it just means that your dyno and their dyno are just not the same thing.

jason when are you going to go dyno, i am trying to set up a time and place to do some tuning on my rig. let me know and mybee we can get a deal.

 

you went with the tree inch x pipes right. mybee if you go with the 2.5 inch that would lead to mire backpressure, hance more tourqe. you would be suprised at what exhaust pipe size does for your tourqe curve.

 

Hmmm... ok, I guess I didn't read closely enough. I thought you were just talking about the hp.

I think you'd be surprised with how much torque you'll pick up as well... I'll have to find my dyno charts from before my cam. I dynoed once when I just had a lid and a cutout, then again after I got headers. Now, I picked up only 9 rwhp and 0 torque at peak from the headers (mostly because I also went from a 3.42 10 bolt to a 4.11 12 bolt), but I literally had about 40 rwhp and 30 rwtq gain at over 6000 rpms... the headers extended my power curve a lot farther than I expected. Basically the more intake/exhaust flow you add, the more it seems to extend the powerband.

So, if your cam makes peak hp and torque higher in the band than your bolt-ons will support, then both the hp and the torque numbers can appear a little choked. Heck, Mark's LSX intake extended his powerband a good 400 rpms or so from what I could see on his dyno charts (if I'm remembering correctly). My guess is your bolt-ons/tune aren't supporting the cam, and the cam's torque curve is falling off before it should, and not extending up and out to where it could if it could breathe.

Now, of course I'm just an amateur... so I'm really just giving you my interpretation of what I've observed from my own car, other people's cars around here, and what I've read on the boards, so take that with a grain of salt.

 

I was thinking of going down to Turbo Tech in Tacoma to dyno and maybe tune a little with my Predator, but if you'd like to dyno also we could go somewhere that would be closer for you...

We could always try Little Monsters up in Marysville... Mark seems to have good luck there. Maybe Mark wants to come dyno too, he likes to spend money putting the car on the rollers.

 

I see Jason @ TSP did respond....missed that the 1st time. Torque can be affected by many things. Back pressure, intake runner lengths, a/f, gear ratios. (tho the cam IS the big player) But as I said, I think your point is valid. Getting 50 lbs of tq less than TPS's test mule is pretty bad. Meaning you may have something wrong with your setup compared to what they designed the cam for. They should be forth coming with their setup so you can maybe figure it out.

I'm not sure the LS6 intake is a valid argument. The other guy should see a 10hp gain from that, but the torque is usually not affected much. In fact, that is one of FAST's selling points for the LSX ".....a 15-20hp gain with no loss of torque....". And you already have one. But a good tune might get you close to where you expected to be.

 

I will be needing to dyno-tune soon. I plan to swap injectors....maybe I should go before the converter goes in? I forget, is your Z an 01 Tranzor?

 

i would be up for anywhere, i was looking to go next week mybee. just let me know i need to get wot tuned so i can spray it again. mark how much does little monsters charge an hour?

 

Yep, when the converter goes in you'll probably lose some on the dyno... you should probably go before the converter.

And yes, my Z is an '01...

 

WAHUSKER, you are my hero! That is exactly what I was getting at! I'm an inquiring mind, and I want to know why my numbers (and everyone else's I can find) are so far off in the TQ department. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm sure the TQ is there, I just want to know whats going to bring it out. Now, if only you could talk some sense into the peeps in the other thread... Probably a lost cause at this point, since it's degenerated into calling my car "half-assed" and "brokedick"...

I totally agree. And stress again I did not expect to duplicate TSP's numbers. Nor do I think the Torquer or 233/239 is a bad cam.

Here's one for ya Jason: how hard has it been tuning that thing in SD? That's what I want to try when I get HPT, and I found what looks to be a decent step-by-step writeup in the forum at HPT's website. Any tips?

 

Well, you should be ashamed with that "half-assed, broke-dick" car of yours.

Brian raises some good points, finally, of what you need to add to your car. Personally I would take exception to his snide comment, but that is how some people take things here, as personal attacks on their product, so they insult you for asking them why their **** didn't do what they said it would, instead of giving you direction of how to make it do it.

So here is my opinions: (they oddly echo what has been said before)

1) get the a/f fixed.
2) open up the air passage (lid & ported tb, maybe even MAF ends).
3) get rid of your POS duals & go back to the stock cat-back so you can pick up that lost tq (& lose tons of hp!).

I'd have to see your car & scan it during a run before I could suggest much more.

Tho the more I look at your dyno graph, the less I like about it. Where did you get that done? Shoot, the tq & hp don't even cross @ 5250. I'm wondering if any of your #s mean anything.

 

Yes, his comments were childish and un-calledfor. I sent him a PM in an effort to stop this now before it escalates.

It still boggles my mind that there are still people posting things along the lines of "you need a lid and a tune, bitch!", despite the fact that I have acknowledged the same from my first posts. I know I can be long-winded, but they must not be reading my posts at all!

1.) Oh yeah! It's all jacked up! I know I'll have my hands full when I get HPT!
2.) Lid shall be coming soon. I'm really turned off by the problems people seem to be having with aftermarket TB's, and for such a high cost with minimal gains. If anything, I'll do a P&P on my stocker. And I plan on going MAF-less, if I can tune SD worth a crap.
3.) Strangely enough, if you go back to TSP's original post of the Torquer dyno's, you'll see that the one through the Hooker cat-back made like 20 ft-lbs less across the board than the duals. But I believe there were also a number of other different factors between the two.

I got it done at some place called The Dyno Shop here in San Diego. Don't know if they are any good or not. I did notice however that the numbers they gave me on the printout are very different than the numbers WinPEP 7 gives me when I open the dyno files at home...

 

did someone say dyno day near seattle? I wanna go last; got lots of tuning to do

 

Hmm I didn't read all of this one but I did read the one on the link. UNFORTUNEATLY there are some members of this community that are sort of "pre modana's" (SP?)

So they are the first to jump on you about stuff that should be done and they seem kinda rude about it because they have lost alot of patience with the people that just don't get it. Don't mean you don't get it but they kinda of act like everyone doesn't get it if you know what I mean....

That being said I think they are right. I think your car is an EASY 380rwtq car with the supporting mods and a good A/F tune. Your car stuck up the whole parking lot at starbucks it is so pig rich at idle

So I DO think you are being a little more critical then need be, TSP's number have to be taken into consideration but you could build ten cars with the same mods and have a 20rwhp and 20rwtq delta and thats on the SAME dyno, thats not even taking into consideration the dyno differences.

Now when you get it tuned and the same mods if there is still a 45 rwtq delta then I'd be wondering what is wrong. If it is 20 or less then thats just the way it goes sometimes.

IMHO 400rwtq is pretty incredible on a cam only car. and I've heard of Trex's tuned pulley 380rwhp so there are just too many variables. You always have to figure a shop car is going to be close to perfect. So its going to be hard to replicate the numbers. LG spouts out 450rwhp cam only numbers all the time and I have no doubt he gets them, but how many of the G5x3 cam only cars do you see running those numbers?

The guys in the post are being ***'s but I do agree with what they are saying. Don't worry alot of my posts are taken the same way but I don't mean for them to be....

BTW the magnaflow is BAD ***!!!!!
Bobby

 

I will check with Little Monsters to see if / when they can get us in. Last time it was $100 for an hour of tuning (you do it yourself.....). Not sure what it costs if you wanted them to tune it, but like most shops, they do not have LS1 Edit or HP Tuner.

Between me & sardog, we have 00 & 02 covered. I might ask Mike to help me work the a/f numbers on my HP Tuner program.

 

I realize I just rehashed what everyone has said and now I feel like a dumbass. Oh well I'm used to it

 

i can scan / tune 00 and 02 vettes