Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
10-02-2003, 12:26 PM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help Put me down first in line for the NoGo tuning book.
I have learned alot through his post and also have alot of printed material.
thanks
I have learned alot through his post and also have alot of printed material.
thanks
10-02-2003, 02:02 PM
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Re: I don't know if it would be better or not - it would certainly be faster though.
If you set it up to mimic whatever load your car presents then it should be equivalent, but I don't know if you would save any time - since you would have to still hit all the cells.
Now if you change the load to make it easier/quicker to hit all the cells then your are changing parameters that aren't compensated for in the VE equation (this would be especially noticeable with a turbo vehicle).
Then there is also the issue of transient vs. "static" conditions (though static is still a bit of a misnomer in this context). There are some cells were you can be both in "static" conditions (say cruising on the highway) and transient conditions (accelerating through) - but there are also cells that you are realistically only going to see in transient conditions (high trottle angle cells, etc.) - due to the relatively fixed load (ignoring high mph top end runs here) Even if we timeslice down essentially to zero the whole system is going to have different properties (inertia of the air charge stream, etc.). What actual difference this makes, I don't know - but it would be another variable to think of.
The MAP, as an indicator of engine load, should help discriminate the cells somewhat, but especially if you alter the load it would easy to be in the same cell in 2 different "contexts"
If you set it up to mimic whatever load your car presents then it should be equivalent, but I don't know if you would save any time - since you would have to still hit all the cells.
Now if you change the load to make it easier/quicker to hit all the cells then your are changing parameters that aren't compensated for in the VE equation (this would be especially noticeable with a turbo vehicle).
Then there is also the issue of transient vs. "static" conditions (though static is still a bit of a misnomer in this context). There are some cells were you can be both in "static" conditions (say cruising on the highway) and transient conditions (accelerating through) - but there are also cells that you are realistically only going to see in transient conditions (high trottle angle cells, etc.) - due to the relatively fixed load (ignoring high mph top end runs here) Even if we timeslice down essentially to zero the whole system is going to have different properties (inertia of the air charge stream, etc.). What actual difference this makes, I don't know - but it would be another variable to think of.
The MAP, as an indicator of engine load, should help discriminate the cells somewhat, but especially if you alter the load it would easy to be in the same cell in 2 different "contexts"
10-02-2003, 02:05 PM
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Re: OK, made a slight change to just them 1200 RPM column last night. After doing some of the calculations, I decided that my VE at 1200 and 50-60 MAP needed to be around 1000. It was around 1200 from previsously blindly scaling it some to help with the cam idle. So after getting it down to 1000 or so, the car actually idles better now, and doesnt surge while sitting in gear as much. I am really happy. I am finally starting to understand this stuff....
NoGo, I would definitely be down for buying a book too...!
HumpinSS, that the orignal thread where I got the .2 also, and also found that each cylinder is like 43.25 Cubic inches....I did however, end up using 346 in my calculations for what I said above...
Now onto the rest of the RPMS this week sometime...
NoGo, I would definitely be down for buying a book too...!
HumpinSS, that the orignal thread where I got the .2 also, and also found that each cylinder is like 43.25 Cubic inches....I did however, end up using 346 in my calculations for what I said above...
Now onto the rest of the RPMS this week sometime...
10-02-2003, 05:25 PM
#25
Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
I go through a filter out all values where tps = 0 and deltaVSS is negative (coasting down), and where the car isn't up to temp yet to start off.
I also kill off the values for each cell were the population < 50 (number of samples). I then filter out all values that are more than 2 standard deviation units from the average.
Generally that gets me a table that tracks pretty well with what you would expect - the biggest problem is getting enough data points to make it statistically valid - you are going to want a tremendous amount of data, and you need to make sure that you vary your driving quite a bit to try and hit all the cells.
I also kill off the values for each cell were the population < 50 (number of samples). I then filter out all values that are more than 2 standard deviation units from the average.
Generally that gets me a table that tracks pretty well with what you would expect - the biggest problem is getting enough data points to make it statistically valid - you are going to want a tremendous amount of data, and you need to make sure that you vary your driving quite a bit to try and hit all the cells.
joel
10-02-2003, 05:52 PM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
I go through a filter out all values where tps = 0 and deltaVSS is negative (coasting down), and where the car isn't up to temp yet to start off.
I also kill off the values for each cell were the population < 50 (number of samples). I then filter out all values that are more than 2 standard deviation units from the average.
Generally that gets me a table that tracks pretty well with what you would expect - the biggest problem is getting enough data points to make it statistically valid - you are going to want a tremendous amount of data, and you need to make sure that you vary your driving quite a bit to try and hit all the cells.
I also kill off the values for each cell were the population < 50 (number of samples). I then filter out all values that are more than 2 standard deviation units from the average.
Generally that gets me a table that tracks pretty well with what you would expect - the biggest problem is getting enough data points to make it statistically valid - you are going to want a tremendous amount of data, and you need to make sure that you vary your driving quite a bit to try and hit all the cells.
joel
I was wondering the same thing. I basically built myself a filter and calculation sheet in excel last night for the 1200 RPM range that I spoke about above. I couldnt seem to find a speadsheet that anyone had put together for this type of tuning....
10-03-2003, 01:55 AM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help OK, well I threw an Excel Spreadsheet together to calculate VE for me, and then break it up by RPM range to make it easier to read for editing. Its kinda basic, but should get the job done for large scale data entries. It will accept 12000 entries...
It's 6.0 Mb in size, and I can't figure out why its so big. I am by no means an Excel expert.
VE Spreadsheet 6.0 Mb
I think it calculates everything right? Someone might want to check it though. This is basically what I used to get the values to edit my 1200 RPM column in the VE table.
It's setup with the constants already in, and all you have to do is put in the 4 user inputs, MAF g/sec, IAT in celcius, RPM, and MAP. After putting those in, it will calculate the VE, and display it in the VE column, it will also display the VE in the different RPM ranges...
Like I said, it's kinda basic, but I suck at Excel...Let me know what you guys think, or if you have any ideas on changing it up any.
It's 6.0 Mb in size, and I can't figure out why its so big. I am by no means an Excel expert.
VE Spreadsheet 6.0 Mb
I think it calculates everything right? Someone might want to check it though. This is basically what I used to get the values to edit my 1200 RPM column in the VE table.
It's setup with the constants already in, and all you have to do is put in the 4 user inputs, MAF g/sec, IAT in celcius, RPM, and MAP. After putting those in, it will calculate the VE, and display it in the VE column, it will also display the VE in the different RPM ranges...
Like I said, it's kinda basic, but I suck at Excel...Let me know what you guys think, or if you have any ideas on changing it up any.
10-03-2003, 06:19 AM
#28
Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help JxxxOxxxe - Thanks! I have about 50 runs logged as I've tuned. I should be able to use these and reduce my logging time.I'll try to get into this over the weekend. I'm a software 'tard tho.
joel
joel
10-03-2003, 08:56 AM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
JxxxOxxxe - Thanks! I have about 50 runs logged as I've tuned. I should be able to use these and reduce my logging time.I'll try to get into this over the weekend. I'm a software 'tard tho.
joel
joel
If Chris B. has something made up that can do everything he was talking about, it would blow this thing away.
I just knew I had to get something figured out because it would have taken FOREVER to sit down and calculate each of these values independantly. After you get chance to use it, let me know what you think.... 
10-03-2003, 11:59 AM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help I'm using the program I poasted earlier to do it - the version I have posted will do most of that stuff, but I have made a few changes also (q-test, etc.). I will see if I can put up a stripped down version that will just do the VE calcs.
10-03-2003, 11:02 PM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
I'm using the program I poasted earlier to do it - the version I have posted will do most of that stuff, but I have made a few changes also (q-test, etc.). I will see if I can put up a stripped down version that will just do the VE calcs.
10-04-2003, 12:18 PM
#32
Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
I'm using the program I poasted earlier to do it - the version I have posted will do most of that stuff, but I have made a few changes also (q-test, etc.). I will see if I can put up a stripped down version that will just do the VE calcs.
joel
10-05-2003, 01:06 PM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help Maybe I am just stupid, but I cant get it to do any VE calculations for me. I can load a log file, then place some filteres, export the log file, but for some reason can understand how to get it to calculate the VE...??
Same thing for the shift points?
10-05-2003, 10:31 PM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
You need to load your ve table exported from LS1Edit.
Hmm...just how do I go about doing that? And then it will make the calculations for me?
10-06-2003, 08:25 AM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help I have edit version 1.3 I went to the table that contained VE and saved it to a file. It should be close to the apply changes and clear changes button. It exported the tablet to a text file that was read by ChrisB's program
10-06-2003, 09:28 AM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
I have edit version 1.3 I went to the table that contained VE and saved it to a file. It should be close to the apply changes and clear changes button. It exported the tablet to a text file that was read by ChrisB's program
The graphing selection is on "Table from PCM" and if I try to click anything else, I get an error....?
10-06-2003, 10:19 AM
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Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help Maybe ChrisB can chime in. I havent mastered the software myself either. I have only played with the IFR table and havent gotten to the VE table as yet
10-06-2003, 12:39 PM
#39
Re: Tuning Pros...NoGo, Chris B,...Help
Maybe ChrisB can chime in. I havent mastered the software myself either. I have only played with the IFR table and havent gotten to the VE table as yet
joel