Trouble with Vengeance tuning thread gone
The original person did post it, in his one of his other threads about his problems with this vendor.
I still would not fell comfortable with Vengeance, since after they got caught doing a bad tune, they just give the money back. In the home building world, the judge would have made the original contractor pay another contractor to make it right. I've seen it happen. But a better scenario would be if Uncle Sam caught him cheating on his taxes, do you think he'd only have to pay back the amount he cheated? How many doctor's insurance companies paid out large settlements for bad work? This is not aimed at Vengeance, but I've been told so many horror stories about some of the tunes done by various tuners, some that are sponsors on this forum. I want to give credit where credit is due Vengeance giving the money back, say a lot for their integrity, since nobody I've personally talked to on this forum was able to manage that, in fact, one case in particular, I can think of, paid 3 times to get it retuned before the tuner wouldn't work on it any more and admitted it was beyond his ability, but no refunds
For the record the reason a refund was issued is the fact the customer is several hours away and is going to find someone closer to him to complete his tune. We had ZERO problem taking care of our customer once we realized we had droppped the ball.
So, as you put it above... "We are paying another contractor to make it right"
So, as you put it above... "We are paying another contractor to make it right"
My car was recently tuned by Vengeance and it runs it mother ******* *** off. Couldn't be more happier with Mike and Ron. Both, are stand up people. I'll make the 9 hour drive down to their shop anytime without thinking twice!!!!!!
I hope you gave him some references closer to him. Ron went above what most of the tuners I've heard about would have. Of course people mostly tell the horror stories and seldom tell the victories. Of course, its like if you compete and win, you're not going to give up too many of your sources, since then you'll only have to work harder to bet the guy you shared your secret with.
Guys I own a business and it's hard for me to take off a full day to drive to Vengeance and back home and kill a full day. I'm most likely going to buy HP Tuners or EFI Live so I can perfectly dial in all the cold start, hot start, etc. at my shop and then run by a dyno to tune the timing map and dial in WOT a/f. Thanks again Ron for all your help.
Mark
Mark
I made a 20 hour drive down to Vengeance non-stop. They stayed tiled after 9 pm on the first day and on the second day they stayed tile after 10 pm. I would do that drive again for them to touch my car. Witch I have to because my fuel system fucked up on me and I had to leave the car down there and I'm proud that they are the one's working on the car. Because off the last tuner
Thanks Mike and Ron Happy New Year to everyone
Thanks Mike and Ron Happy New Year to everyone LS1 Tech Stories
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Verdad Gallardo Guys I own a business and it's hard for me to take off a full day to drive to Vengeance and back home and kill a full day. I'm most likely going to buy HP Tuners or EFI Live so I can perfectly dial in all the cold start, hot start, etc. at my shop and then run by a dyno to tune the timing map and dial in WOT a/f. Thanks again Ron for all your help.
Mark
Mark
Good Luck, glad to see you settled your issue to your satisfaction. Before you buy any software to do your own tune, invest in Dan's book
http://www.masportspeedshop.com/serv...-tuning/Detail
It's worth the money and has one of the best explanations of the various interactions, that I've seen. He starts off with the basics and guides you right up through, the tuning, including several examples
You will not be sorry, some people say it's a lot for a book, but you're paying for the knowledge and work that went in it
I just realize, we're not talking about the same book
Last edited by poconojoe; Jan 1, 2009 at 08:09 PM. Reason: I just realize, we're not talking about the same book
I have Greg's book. It's a pretty good read and really helps to understand the principals. He is also member on this board and HPTuners forum (he may be on EFIlive too).
Still most of the learning comes from playing with the actual software.
Using HPtuners PRO this is really all you need to know: http://www.thetuningdoctor.com/HPTun.../copypaste.swf
Well maybe not all but that saves a ton of time dial in VE and MAF tables. On the few cars that I have tuned I've gotten the VE and MAF tables with 1-2 percent in about 30-45 minutes of driving.
Still trying to figure out the VE table on the new style PCMs but some guys from the HPTuners forum have come through on that one to with some VE tables generating software.
I had tried many years ago to do some tuning with TunerCat and LS1edit and was completely lost, so I gave that route up, but after seeing the methods that some tuners use to tune cars me and a buddy decided to try again. And after much debate between which software to buy, we decided on HPtuners and haven't looked back.
Jon
Still most of the learning comes from playing with the actual software.
Using HPtuners PRO this is really all you need to know: http://www.thetuningdoctor.com/HPTun.../copypaste.swf
Well maybe not all but that saves a ton of time dial in VE and MAF tables. On the few cars that I have tuned I've gotten the VE and MAF tables with 1-2 percent in about 30-45 minutes of driving.
Still trying to figure out the VE table on the new style PCMs but some guys from the HPTuners forum have come through on that one to with some VE tables generating software.
I had tried many years ago to do some tuning with TunerCat and LS1edit and was completely lost, so I gave that route up, but after seeing the methods that some tuners use to tune cars me and a buddy decided to try again. And after much debate between which software to buy, we decided on HPtuners and haven't looked back.
Jon
I personally have seen ALOT more good things come out of Vengeance than bad. That's why when I get a the few last things sorted out and get the engine bad together thats where she is going to be tuned. I followed Vengeance for awhile checking customer feedback and lurking around on here, which I why I bought my cam and other things from them and have nothing but definate confidence with the guys at Vengeance.
Not to talk **** about Vengeance, but screwing something up on accident or letting something go due to bad quality control is one thing. That's when you just blow it off and say **** happens, and if you get a refund of a fix then whatever.
But what was done here is knowingly putting out something that's not worth a **** and charging out the *** for it. Sounds almost criminal. I've personally experienced pretty much the same tune from a well know (and hated tuning shop),but in that tuners defense my cars were bolt on (one pretty much stock) so go all out wouldn't be that much gain, and he only charged $300. Which is less than I would have payed for a hand held tuner but with better results.
That's not to say that he hasn't done the same with more radical setups, I'm sure that he has, but guess what. I'm not going back there, nor do I recommend him anymore. As should be done with anyone who uses these tuning practices. 10 years ago would have been different, but there's no way this type of stuff should be done with the equipment and knowledge that is available in today's tuning world.
Jon
But what was done here is knowingly putting out something that's not worth a **** and charging out the *** for it. Sounds almost criminal. I've personally experienced pretty much the same tune from a well know (and hated tuning shop),but in that tuners defense my cars were bolt on (one pretty much stock) so go all out wouldn't be that much gain, and he only charged $300. Which is less than I would have payed for a hand held tuner but with better results.
That's not to say that he hasn't done the same with more radical setups, I'm sure that he has, but guess what. I'm not going back there, nor do I recommend him anymore. As should be done with anyone who uses these tuning practices. 10 years ago would have been different, but there's no way this type of stuff should be done with the equipment and knowledge that is available in today's tuning world.
Jon
This may not be a popular thing to say but .....
What if the owner of the car never had his trims logged and never knew they were 18% off but he was happy with the way the car drove? What if the car made as much power as it could with that tune?
I guess where my beef would be is if anyone is going to tune a car for someone they need to charge accordingly. If they would have given the customer the option for a "quicky" WOT tune and only charged I dunno, 200 bucks maybe, that would be one thing. I could be wrong but if the fuel trims had "fully learned" to the setup the car was running then you could just jack up the PE table until the car hits optimum WOT AFR. Same thing with the WOT timing cells. The "right way" to tune a $500 tune? Absolutely not, but to some customers it may be acceptable for half the money.
Of course none of this addresses any type deception. Impossible to defend this type of work for $500.
What if the owner of the car never had his trims logged and never knew they were 18% off but he was happy with the way the car drove? What if the car made as much power as it could with that tune?
I guess where my beef would be is if anyone is going to tune a car for someone they need to charge accordingly. If they would have given the customer the option for a "quicky" WOT tune and only charged I dunno, 200 bucks maybe, that would be one thing. I could be wrong but if the fuel trims had "fully learned" to the setup the car was running then you could just jack up the PE table until the car hits optimum WOT AFR. Same thing with the WOT timing cells. The "right way" to tune a $500 tune? Absolutely not, but to some customers it may be acceptable for half the money.
Of course none of this addresses any type deception. Impossible to defend this type of work for $500.
This may not be a popular thing to say but .....
What if the owner of the car never had his trims logged and never knew they were 18% off but he was happy with the way the car drove? What if the car made as much power as it could with that tune?
I guess where my beef would be is if anyone is going to tune a car for someone they need to charge accordingly. If they would have given the customer the option for a "quicky" WOT tune and only charged I dunno, 200 bucks maybe, that would be one thing. I could be wrong but if the fuel trims had "fully learned" to the setup the car was running then you could just jack up the PE table until the car hits optimum WOT AFR. Same thing with the WOT timing cells. The "right way" to tune a $500 tune? Absolutely not, but to some customers it may be acceptable for half the money.
Of course none of this addresses any type deception. Impossible to defend this type of work for $500.
What if the owner of the car never had his trims logged and never knew they were 18% off but he was happy with the way the car drove? What if the car made as much power as it could with that tune?
I guess where my beef would be is if anyone is going to tune a car for someone they need to charge accordingly. If they would have given the customer the option for a "quicky" WOT tune and only charged I dunno, 200 bucks maybe, that would be one thing. I could be wrong but if the fuel trims had "fully learned" to the setup the car was running then you could just jack up the PE table until the car hits optimum WOT AFR. Same thing with the WOT timing cells. The "right way" to tune a $500 tune? Absolutely not, but to some customers it may be acceptable for half the money.
Of course none of this addresses any type deception. Impossible to defend this type of work for $500.
And in another thread about certain work that had been performed at the same shop. The response was "We fired that guy". So at any given time, your car could get worked on by someone who hasn't been fired yet. That's nice to know, huh?
Jon
