98Camarod

iTrader: (43)

You are the one that started the bullshit and got all worked up. You obviously know what your doing and know everything. Here's a few things that you obviously need some help on:

-IFR tables USED to be modified since that was the only way to do it
-Ls1 edit is old news, technology is a wonderful thing

Extra information that I guess you want to know:

-I know what valve lapping is
-I do all of my own labor
-I'm 23
-Sorry to disappoint you but I'm married

BlackNiteWS6

iTrader: (2)

I'm not gonna get the arguing started back between us cause it doesn't help the OP
or anyone. But to be honest i didn't start the bullshit...it was you saying in a arrogant manor " good luck tuning that thing" that was you basically saying that i'll need good luck because of the way that i tuned the car. At that point since you threw the first stone of course i'm gonna stick up for myself, then you brought up the word " dumbass" ..lol. And others in this post also said that certain methods can be used to get the job done. And on a funny note i wasn't gonna ask you if you're married..lol. And i'm not mad and i dont have any issues with people having different ideas than me. But just cause i use a certain head or cam or a tuning method i wouldn't call ANYONE a dumbass or argue with a guy cause he tunes his car a different way. I was only saying that u must be 18 or atleast young cause you were saying my car wasn't fast enough cause the way i tuned it and that you were compairing a turbo setup against a small head/cam setup....those statements sound like what a kid says cause you dont agree with him. But being only 23 you dont know it all...and i'm not saying that as a dig i just telling u that from my experience since i'm now 41...yikes, i'm still learning all the time. But when u stop listening to what others say and think that your way is always the best you are gonna learn lessons the hard way. But i acted alittle harsh myself and i'm man enough to admit that. And no matter what since i only had LS1-Edit i still got better or atleast close to the same times as guys with bigger heads an/or bigger cam with longer headers with larger y-pipes. I had FLP's that only had a 2.5" y-pipe. And i always got called a liar when i would beat someone on the street
It's not peak power you make, its the most efficient way the power is used is what wins races and runs lower ET's. And like i said before my nitrous run was a shake down run and the first time i drove any car with N2O..lol. Based on my MPH if the car was fine tuned that 127.71 would have been something like a mid 10.60 to 10.70. So the PCM wasn't fine tuned, i just had a new set of Hoosier QTP's put on the car that morning, and i just finished the nitrous install then drove straight to Atco. I just got there and the cars were lining up in the lanes, so that first pass was with zero cool down and i didn't have a bottle warmer so my bottle pressure was sitting at 900lbs on that run, so i was running pig rich. I know you couldn't have known this, but i'm always fine with telling others about my experiences so that someone might want to know, but i'm usually gonna get pissed when i'm called a dumbass when it comes to tuning since i've been doing it before some of the guys on here weren't even old enough to drive..lol. So i appologize for getting mouthy, its the irish in me i guess..lol. But i'm not sorry for the way i tuned 7 years ago..lol. And if it wasn't done correctly then i would think my motor would have went BOOM on or off the bottle, and the car never even burned oil like some cars did from the factory. So i must have done something right for what tuning software i had But good luck on the turbo project.

98Camarod

iTrader: (43)

You are right but you are wrong. You were right that I shouldn't have called you that, but your wrong to say that tuning by modifying the IFR is correct rather changing the correct parameters. Granted, if LS1 Edit is all you had then thats all you could use, but now there is much better tuning software available. By leaving the VE stock and changing the IFR tables, it makes so many more tables wrong as frost explained.

WeathermanShawn

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Mike454SS.

One of the better explanations I heard. Once you pointed out IFR/KPA fueling slope vs RPM/KPA airmass and resulting IFR I got it.

And your description of how in certain areas the car may feel spongy in certain rpm's vs responsive in others helped me think it through.

BlackNiteWS6, I would just say that for WOT performance and racing, whatever tuning method you successfully utilize to get the right AFR and spark advance works for me. There are a number of us who in addition to some occasional track visits or 'spirited' driving, have a multi-functioning car. Some highway driving, up to the mountains, and even an occasional 'wife borrowing the car to get some groceries'.

Tuning for me required getting this car to behave in many differing driving scenarios. Peg idle down, part-throttle, and WOT. As I admitted earlier, I have experimented with one across the board IFR % change, and it definitely work to get Trims in line. And it is was easy. But, as Frost and Mike454SS pointed out, it did seem to make certain driving at certain rpms/KPA either 'boggy' or non-responsive, while at other rpm's (particularly at WOT) seemed to be no problem.

As you stated there are many differing opinions, and I am not smart enough to say one way is right or wrong. For me, I learned a lot from this discussion. This is just a hobby for me, so anything I or others can learn is very helpful.

Thanks.

..WeathermanShawn..

BlackNiteWS6

iTrader: (2)

I agree the new tuners out today do a better job, but when i did my tuning it
was back in 2002 so LS1-Edit was all i had, plus i dont own the WS6 anymore anyway. But i will say this even though i was using Edit and i tuned the IFR way i never had any side effects from it. The car idled perfect. You have a A4 so i'm sure you;ve seen how A4 cars surge or hunt for idle during a hot start, or even cold starts. Well i had none of those issues, probably cause i was running a small cam. Also my car ran perfect when cruising with the converter locked up, and ran like a raped ape when you hammered it. If i had HPT i would use the newest method to tune of course no doubt. I'm looking forward to getting HPT or EFI Live, i tried them both so it will be hard to choose.

BlackNiteWS6

iTrader: (2)

I only used the IFR to get the LTFT's as close to zero as possible and with LS1-Edit it didn;t mess anyother tables up. And i never had any issues like the car feeling boggy or nothing like that. After tweaking and tweaking more i got my Ltrims to 0 to -2 and thats when the car rans its best. And if your LTFT's are off so will be your WOT fueling. So i first would dial in the LTFT's first and get them in range and drive it around for about 50 miles or so. And getting the LTFT's in line using IFR worked perfect for my car. It actually helped get my WOT numbers in check as well so i didn't need to spend alot of time adjusting the PE table. But no matter what method or software you use i dont know why anyone would think that having your LTFT's as close to zero as possible is wrong. That was the golden standard for tuning since LS1's have been around. Even Ed Wright tuned pcm's to get them close to zero as possible. I think guys are over analyzing things. Just keep adjusting until your idle it as dead on as possible and that the STFT's aren't bouncing all over the place, then get your LTFT's in line, now i like them alittle negative like -2 or so, then after that just dial in the WOT with the PE table and be down with it. And play around with adding timing if needed and go have fun. Unless the new software thats out today are way way different than in the past i cant see how adjusting the flow of the injectors to get your Trims in line will mess up anything else, i've never seen that in my life, and i used to watch Bryan Herder tune and he always made sure the LTFT's were alittle on the negative side or close to zero. And he's a pro. So all those guys tuning their cars back in the day were wrong?? Cause i've seen alot of low 11 and high 10 second n/a cars tuned the way i tuned mine. Now thats strange.

BlackNiteWS6

iTrader: (2)

I wish i saw this post earlier...its true...hows is tuning the MAF table gonna make up for the production variances of the injectors? So touching the IFR table wouldn't be an option? I doubt GM custom matches injectors for every car. So tweaking the IFR table is valid. And if it's an option in the tuning its there to help us tune correct? As long as the car runs correctly how can one tuning method be totally worng? As said before i never had any issues. And for the small setup i ran and the fact that my suspension wasn't really setup for the track and it was full weight, i say my tuning wasn't all bad.

12secSS

iTrader: (30)

Like was said, IFR tuning was the old way of tuning because the industry didn't know any better. Just like putting a holley carb on every engine to make power, it used to be the way to getr done. But as time and technology evolved along with our knowledge of how things work, we are begining to stick to EFI as it is much better, much like tuning the MAF and VE (SD) tables.

This is a required method if a new product/kit is going up for 50-state smog legal status, if the aftermarket manufacturer is applying for a CARB EO # on a product. CARB will take the vehicle with the mods and do a full on rectal exam on the car. They will verify that the VE table is stock, otherwise the manufacturer will not be awarded the Executive Order (EO) for the part being submitted. Which means that part is not legal for sale or use on vehicles that abide by the Ca emissions standards (not just Ca). If the tune was altered, it would be the owners responsibility and they would get busted ... if emission testing got that strict.

My example was not to digress from this topic (SD vs MAF), but to demonstrate that their are situations where you would need to fudge the numbers the old way to get around regulations.

12secSS

iTrader: (30)

One thing you need to take in to consideration is that the calibration team for the F-Body was possibly different from the calibration team that worked on the Y-Body. If you look at several calibration files, even some from the same platform, they have different calibration strategies throughout. GM also is not optimizing the tune for performance, they are optimizing it for fuel economy and emission compliance.

BlackNiteWS6

iTrader: (2)

Then in a few years someone will figure out another way to tune and this newest method
will be called the wrong way of tuning I believe if something works who cares which way it's done. If something was wrong with it what happens? Cause i never seen any ill effects from a tuning method. Basically this just like the whole FAST intake debate. Some like and others don't. And the guys that paid all that cash will feel the need to justify their purchase no matter what.
This is no different...There's more than one method to tune, just like there's more than one tuning software available. And just cause the new methods are different that doesn't mean that it automatically makes another method suddenly the wrong way. I not gonna take anything away from people or myself
for using a certain way of tuning, especially when i ran deep in the 11's n/a
and in the 10.9's on a shake down run at over 127 mph and my motor didn't blow up, so i guess something was done right. And i'm not gonna let anyone take that away from me. Plus this thread is actually worthless since SD tuning is the topic not how some guys used the IFR to fine tune Ltrims. My old tuning was winning at the track that ran similar setups and used HPT, so if its not broke dont fix it. Especially if my A/F is a steady 12.5 with zero knock and perfect street manners.

BlackNiteWS6

iTrader: (2)

It's like talking to a wall My car ran perfect n/a and on N2O. I could care less about GM's tuning. I'm only interested in trying to find out if the sky is gonna fall cause others, not just me, tuned there car a certain way. You guys can blab to yourselves. I will tune anyway that works the best for me whether i use HPT, EFI Live or whatever...Oh man thats right the USA is a new country now, if you think outside the box you will be told you're wrong
Once i mod my camaro ss and i run into someone on the street i'll make sure to ask him what method he used to tune

Frost

iTrader: (45)

No it's not like X or Y debate and I have posted what is wrong with it in this thread and so have others, seems like you read what you want. I am sure that your car runs like 100% stock 100% of the time but the facts are that MOST H/C CARS DO NOT RUN BETTER OUTSIDE OF WOT WITH IFR TUNING compared to calibrating the airflow through VE/MAF. I can drag in a pile of customers who had their cars IFR tuned who can testify the difference the VE and MAF make but I'm sure you'd say they are all wrong too, after all since it worked for your car it must work for all of them right.



Seriously the pot and kettle here...


I and others have posted the issues with IFR tuning. I know it was how it used to be done. Maybe all of the boosted guys should ditch their tuning and go with FMU's; after all it used to be ok. Heck, why even have a car, people used to walk and ride horses so that must still be fine too.

It is clear you are here for argument rather than rational debate. You ignored and failed to address the technical honest criticisms of the method and fall back to irrelevance such as WOT performance. You base your argument (opinion) on that of your own single car rather than experience with it on multiple setups. If it worked fabulously, people would still use it and would have had no need to migrate to the newer method.

At any rate, I'm done with this thread. If anyone has any questions related to what I've written please send them to me in PM so that I get them.

Mike454SS

iTrader: (4)

Cool, I never knew that, thanks for the info.

I just threw up in my mouth a little.

I agree...talking to you IS like talking to a wall

...me too

BlackNiteWS6

iTrader: (2)

I really dont care what you guys think of me or my setup cause my WS6 ran better than alot of cars with similar parts and some with larger cams thats all i'm saying...and a few post ago i appologized for letting this thread get to me, but now its you and Frost that are trying to start the **** back up again.
When i originally posted in this thread i was basically called stupid and called a dumbass cause i used the IFR just to get the Ltrims in line. And i also admitted that i did the tuning all the way back in 2002 when LS1-Edit was the only software available at the time. So if you would have read my whole post not just the part you wanted to read you would have seen that my tuning was done along time ago, and the method i used was what most if not all were doing at the time. And i admitted that i only had a small cam figuring that was possibly why it tuned in so easy. The only time i argued was when i started sticking up for myself and or my car. Even back in '01 and '02 running mid 11.7's at 116.89 mph with the small setup i had and how heavy my car was. I wasn't arguing i was just trying to state the facts about how good my car ran using LS1-Edit for starters and the fact that it drove excellent. The only thing that i can think of is if i had to perform an emergency maneuver like stomping hard on the brake at the same time cutting the steering wheel from left to right, but even then it only surged a few times then straightened out and was nowhere near about to stall. Other then a situation like that i spent a lot of time fine tuning the hell out of the car just so the idle was as close to not surging as possible. Now as you all know that heads and cam setups make the car run fat at idle and the LTFT's help to show just how rich its running at part throttle. So without trying to reinvent the wheel i just gave the IFR table a try to see if i could back off the amount of fuel. And i did a search to see if anyone else was using that table to get the LTFT's in the direction closer to a leaner reading. And it worked out just fine after doing a little trial and error, but i stuck with it and got the ltrims so it showed in the low negative numbers like the members on here recommended back then. I also said i agreed that when i get HPT or EFI Live that i will be using the most up to date methods available since i will be running something like a set of ported LS2 heads and a more aggressive cam, just not sure what size yet. And i'll end this with this: I didn't know back in '01 and '02 how tuning was gonna act in my WS6 A4, but i took my time and learned what each function did to the pcm and its tuning. I NEVER used words like dumbass or anyother arrogant statement to someone for just posting that they tuned their car a certain way. And unfortunately this stuff has been happening too much in the last few years on this site...example: Alot of people think that if you dont run a FAST intake you are insane or something..lol. And god forbid if you run the TPIS modded intake man all hell breaks loose. So its guys that act like that that will get someone like me to get mad and for what? Just cause i dont agree with the cost per hp gain from the FAST, and more for porting. And to be honest you and Frost were flat out saying i was WRONG when neither of you asked that i was talking about a tuning method that i used way back in late '01 or early in '02 and the fact that there was only LS1-Edit out to tune our cars and it was sooooo limited. I was just happy that i learned as much as i could and tried different ideas until my car ran efficient and also ran very consistant at Atco. I was very pleased And based on my trap speed when i was spraying, i know i could have gotten down to 10.6's or maybe better....but i never got the chance to fine tune for the nitrous. Well i have said way too many words that i'm even getting heavy eyes. Sorry for the book...

joecar

Thanks for the interesting info... what tool(s) does CARB use to examine the VE table...?

Thanks again.

</hijack>

Gh0st

iTrader: (3)

BlackNite,

Did you ever go to school?

69 Ghost

Guys there are a lot of ways to tune but maybe some insight is needed as to how things are done from a mathmatical standpoint. The problem is most people do not connect the two. GM first went MAF then SD then back to MAF. Ford went SD then MAF. Early MAF's were not very reliable and expensive. Coming from the TPI world this has been beat to death a number of years ago. Personally I welcome the MAF. Do not forget that regardless of which direction you go simple changes do affect the tables. For instance a intake change will affect both the MAF and the VE tables. For SD to work properly you need to have the IAT tables correct or you will get skewing. If you get the MAF right for your combo it will be right. Regardless of the changes AFTER the MAF itself. MAF's have problems in the low flow areas such as idle but they can be overcome.

http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/

SS Enforcer

I find in my bolt on ls1 that getting the VE table accurate is the key to having a nice crisp tune. My car is SD tuned in open loop all the time as I have a WB installed I can keep an eye on it and make small changes regarding the corrections for weather. The tune is damn near perfect now I think.
I control all fueling from one table which gives me the ability to use a lean cruise and I don't use PE at all. It's taken me a while to get the fuel table just right but I have enjoyed the process but I am about to slip a cam into it but hopefully just redoing the VE table will see most of the tune right.

I have also found there is a definate feel you get for what the motor wants regarding afr's @ wot my ls1 likes 12.6 afr @wot but my old VE/G8 6.0L with the L92 heads wanted 13.2.

cheers

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

[QUOTE=Frost;11182336] Maybe all of the boosted guys should ditch their tuning and go with FMU's; after all it used to be ok.

Now Thems fightin words buddy..lol


Bottom line, Alter MAF parameters affects fueling
Alter PE parameters affects fueling
Alter VE parameters affects fueling
Alter IFR parameters affects fueling
Alter IAT parameters affects fueling
Alter MAF location affects fueling

mike13

iTrader: (27)

Help me understand this, if you have a boosted motor with a MAF and it's tuned for 8lbs boost. You install a set of heads that flow better, so at the same 8lbs your flowing more air, will your car still be in tune with a MAF?

Also if you exceed the CFM of the MAF will you throw some kind of code?