Maximum power @WOT
Maximum power @WOT I´m new in tuning, We are using HP-tuners
And we wante to learn
just wondering i don´t have access to DYNO, so how can i know where my car has maximum horsepower@wot.
Then i´m looking into timing and fuel AFR. right ?
Or should i looke into something else.??? too
Is the baseline as much timing as you can with out a knock or?
i have seen that some people claim that too much timing (tough your not knocking) can not always be better.... "IS That right" ??
HOW should i do this?
i´m running N/A ....
Baezi
And we wante to learn
just wondering i don´t have access to DYNO, so how can i know where my car has maximum horsepower@wot.
Then i´m looking into timing and fuel AFR. right ?
Or should i looke into something else.??? too
Is the baseline as much timing as you can with out a knock or?
i have seen that some people claim that too much timing (tough your not knocking) can not always be better.... "IS That right" ??
HOW should i do this?
i´m running N/A ....
Baezi
Teching In
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Prairieville, La
I´m new in tuning, We are using HP-tuners
And we wante to learn
just wondering i don´t have access to DYNO, so how can i know where my car has maximum horsepower@wot.
Then i´m looking into timing and fuel AFR. right ?
Or should i looke into something else.??? too
Is the baseline as much timing as you can with out a knock or?
i have seen that some people claim that too much timing (tough your not knocking) can not always be better.... "IS That right" ??
HOW should i do this?
i´m running N/A ....
Baezi
And we wante to learn
just wondering i don´t have access to DYNO, so how can i know where my car has maximum horsepower@wot.
Then i´m looking into timing and fuel AFR. right ?
Or should i looke into something else.??? too
Is the baseline as much timing as you can with out a knock or?
i have seen that some people claim that too much timing (tough your not knocking) can not always be better.... "IS That right" ??
HOW should i do this?
i´m running N/A ....
Baezi
There are lots of opinions on where to start Tuning. Here on this site as well as HP Tuners are some articles. Others that will reply here have more experience and will give great ideas.
i can tell you this, without access to a dyno all you need is a about a mile of smooth, non busy road. A G-Tech for performance Logging and a HP Tuners for Data Logging.
Go to your smooth road of choice (to prevent false knock), get into 3rd (2nd doesn't place enough engine load and 4th will have you driving too fast) as soon as you can and stomp the throttle so you bog the engine a little at such a low speed in 3rd gear and let it rev all the way to redline.
The G-Tech will help you monitor your progress. It doesn't matter if the actual HP readings are not dyno accurate, at least they can show gains and loss during each run. From there you can look at the HPT Logs to see where your timing is at, and whether you ping or need to add fuel.
If this is a manual transmission, you can log the Transmission Shaft speed and somewhere around here is a spreadsheet that will give your HP and Torque figures.
For WOT tuning you need a WideBand 02 to begin with. If you bought the HPtuners you can go there forum and do a search. There is alot info on there that will help you. Every setup is different. What works for one setup will not work for yours.
There are lots of opinions on where to start Tuning. Here on this site as well as HP Tuners are some articles. Others that will reply here have more experience and will give great ideas.
i can tell you this, without access to a dyno all you need is a about a mile of smooth, non busy road. A G-Tech for performance Logging and a HP Tuners for Data Logging.
Go to your smooth road of choice (to prevent false knock), get into 3rd (2nd doesn't place enough engine load and 4th will have you driving too fast) as soon as you can and stomp the throttle so you bog the engine a little at such a low speed in 3rd gear and let it rev all the way to redline.
The G-Tech will help you monitor your progress. It doesn't matter if the actual HP readings are not dyno accurate, at least they can show gains and loss during each run. From there you can look at the HPT Logs to see where your timing is at, and whether you ping or need to add fuel.
If this is a manual transmission, you can log the Transmission Shaft speed and somewhere around here is a spreadsheet that will give your HP and Torque figures.
i can tell you this, without access to a dyno all you need is a about a mile of smooth, non busy road. A G-Tech for performance Logging and a HP Tuners for Data Logging.
Go to your smooth road of choice (to prevent false knock), get into 3rd (2nd doesn't place enough engine load and 4th will have you driving too fast) as soon as you can and stomp the throttle so you bog the engine a little at such a low speed in 3rd gear and let it rev all the way to redline.
The G-Tech will help you monitor your progress. It doesn't matter if the actual HP readings are not dyno accurate, at least they can show gains and loss during each run. From there you can look at the HPT Logs to see where your timing is at, and whether you ping or need to add fuel.
If this is a manual transmission, you can log the Transmission Shaft speed and somewhere around here is a spreadsheet that will give your HP and Torque figures.
ok we have Gtec and Wideband and been using it, but the AFR should it be at WOT 12.7-12.9 right in a N/A car for best performance or ?
where are the baseline?
If i have a good steady baseline in AFR and if i try to increase or decrease timing should i always have to change fuel too?? or?
thanks
Baezi
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I have actually seen this proven wrong on the dyno by a tuning instructor. If you put 11.5 parts of air and 1 part fuel in a combustion chamber the ignition timing cannot effect how much more air or fuel can enter the chamber because the valves are already closed. If you had the timing soo low that it was just puking unburnt fuel into the exhaust I could see it reading different.
Last edited by 2ktransam; Mar 14, 2010 at 05:48 PM.
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I have actually seen this proven wrong on the dyno by a tuning instructor. If you put 11.5 parts of air and 1 part fuel in a combustion chamber the ignition timing cannot effect how much more air or fuel can enter the chamber because the valves are already closed. If you had the timing soo low that it was just puking unburnt fuel into the exhaust I could see it reading different.
How would PE have anything to do with it? PE is just a modifier for your commanded AF. If you set up the VE table right the PE table should only have to be adjusted one time to what ever AF ratio you want to run at. Timing can increase or decrease HP and torque but not the amount of air and fuel that goes into your cylinder. Air and fuel enter your compression chamber and the valves close before it is ignited. Timing cannot allow more air or fuel into the chamber.
Theres your answer in bold. If the VE is not set correctly and the PE is modified to get the required A/F then if you change timing you can see a change in A/F. If all the proper steps are taken in tuning the MAF and VE then I agree with you.
PE doesn't have anything to do with the equation but it has been a long time since I have tuned with a Maf so I will have to think through that. I hate when I see a half assed tune with PE. Even if you are running a Maf on your car you should always set PE to what ever you want to run AF wise, tune your VE table, tune your maf and then worry about timing.
TECH Resident
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 875
Likes: 2
From: Portland Oregon
Baezi, That must be the fastest car in all of Iceland.
Timing, I keep adding 1 degree at a time and making a test run until I see spark knock, then back the whole table off 1 degree to be safe. Try 28, try 29, try 30, I think that your question is about how much timing to run, the answer is: as much as you can without knock. That will make the most HP. When it knocks and retards, that will slow you down. Knock is bad for your engine so play it safe. Hot weather, or low octane gas will cause knock also.
Timing, I keep adding 1 degree at a time and making a test run until I see spark knock, then back the whole table off 1 degree to be safe. Try 28, try 29, try 30, I think that your question is about how much timing to run, the answer is: as much as you can without knock. That will make the most HP. When it knocks and retards, that will slow you down. Knock is bad for your engine so play it safe. Hot weather, or low octane gas will cause knock also.
Baezi, That must be the fastest car in all of Iceland.
Timing, I keep adding 1 degree at a time and making a test run until I see spark knock, then back the whole table off 1 degree to be safe. Try 28, try 29, try 30, I think that your question is about how much timing to run, the answer is: as much as you can without knock. That will make the most HP. When it knocks and retards, that will slow you down. Knock is bad for your engine so play it safe. Hot weather, or low octane gas will cause knock also.
Timing, I keep adding 1 degree at a time and making a test run until I see spark knock, then back the whole table off 1 degree to be safe. Try 28, try 29, try 30, I think that your question is about how much timing to run, the answer is: as much as you can without knock. That will make the most HP. When it knocks and retards, that will slow you down. Knock is bad for your engine so play it safe. Hot weather, or low octane gas will cause knock also.
I wonder if what you are seeing is due to the affect timing has on your turbo? Could it be that it is changing your boost by a half pound or so with the change in charge pressure in the exhaust?
TECH Resident
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 875
Likes: 2
From: Portland Oregon
Without a dyno this is the only way to do it but I would back it off more than 1 degree. Normally power starts to drop off well before the knock sensors see knock so you should lower it a little more to be safe. In my opinion 1 degree before knock is cutting pretty close to the edge.
Teching In
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Kuwait
the down side of tuning with out a dyno is even if you back off only 1 or 2 degree of timing after you see knock it is still too late. the knock sensor is not dead on in detecting knock and it is calibrated for a 100% stock setup.
i've seen many people who succeded with this whole no dyno tuning and i have also seen many people who's knock sensor did not detect knock and the bearings died over time (usually not that long)
i've seen many people who succeded with this whole no dyno tuning and i have also seen many people who's knock sensor did not detect knock and the bearings died over time (usually not that long)
Baezi, That must be the fastest car in all of Iceland.
Timing, I keep adding 1 degree at a time and making a test run until I see spark knock, then back the whole table off 1 degree to be safe. Try 28, try 29, try 30, I think that your question is about how much timing to run, the answer is: as much as you can without knock. That will make the most HP. When it knocks and retards, that will slow you down. Knock is bad for your engine so play it safe. Hot weather, or low octane gas will cause knock also.
Timing, I keep adding 1 degree at a time and making a test run until I see spark knock, then back the whole table off 1 degree to be safe. Try 28, try 29, try 30, I think that your question is about how much timing to run, the answer is: as much as you can without knock. That will make the most HP. When it knocks and retards, that will slow you down. Knock is bad for your engine so play it safe. Hot weather, or low octane gas will cause knock also.
i´m running shell V-power it´s similuar to your´s premium gas. 95oct and here it´s dry cold weather around 50-60°F on summer time.
the down side of tuning with out a dyno is even if you back off only 1 or 2 degree of timing after you see knock it is still too late. the knock sensor is not dead on in detecting knock and it is calibrated for a 100% stock setup.
i've seen many people who succeded with this whole no dyno tuning and i have also seen many people who's knock sensor did not detect knock and the bearings died over time (usually not that long)
i've seen many people who succeded with this whole no dyno tuning and i have also seen many people who's knock sensor did not detect knock and the bearings died over time (usually not that long)
makes me wonder if my knock sensor is not working ??????
but like i said we have never done anything to timing our selfes here, the car is safe tuned by TSP.
is 31-32 normal timing for my setup and could i go higher timing 32-33??
my cam is 248.254-615.622-114
thanks a lot guys
Baezi
hi it´s maby one of the fastest here, there is one 2005 C6 402 APS twin turbo here (ICEVETTE) very fast car, ve have a lot of nice rides here though we are only 360.000 people living here .
i´m running shell V-power it´s similuar to your´s premium gas. 95oct and here it´s dry cold weather around 50-60°F on summer time.
The timing at WOT is 31-32 and we have nevere ever seen Knock on this setup ever, not even after i bumped the compression from 10.9:1 to 11.6:1, then i mean never not under any situation.
makes me wonder if my knock sensor is not working ??????
but like i said we have never done anything to timing our selfes here, the car is safe tuned by TSP.
is 31-32 normal timing for my setup and could i go higher timing 32-33??
my cam is 248.254-615.622-114
thanks a lot guys
Baezi
i´m running shell V-power it´s similuar to your´s premium gas. 95oct and here it´s dry cold weather around 50-60°F on summer time.
The timing at WOT is 31-32 and we have nevere ever seen Knock on this setup ever, not even after i bumped the compression from 10.9:1 to 11.6:1, then i mean never not under any situation.
makes me wonder if my knock sensor is not working ??????
but like i said we have never done anything to timing our selfes here, the car is safe tuned by TSP.
is 31-32 normal timing for my setup and could i go higher timing 32-33??
my cam is 248.254-615.622-114
thanks a lot guys
Baezi